In this episode I’m joined again by one of my most revered shamanic practitioner Christina Pratt, this time for a discussion about the effects of social media and other mobile apps on the development of the psyche and soul. She shares a wealth of insights into the multi-dimensionality of the issues and provides guiding lights of hope for how we can be in right relationship with our techno toys and tools.
We both share a sense of deep appreciation for the ancient technology that is the natural human imagination stimulated by nature, direct contact with the spirit world, and the experience of spoken story.
Thirty years ago with, a full cosmology of spirit help, Christina, brought forward The Cycle of Transformation, an extremely challenging, four-year training in the shamanic skills needed to create the New World in our time. She is the founder and primary shamanic healer at Last Mask Center (www.lastmaskcenter.org) in Portland, Oregon and the author of the two-volume set, An Encyclopedia of Shamanism. Christina’s international, live-Internet radio show, Why Shamanism Now, offers over 350 hours of free podcasts on the practical application of shamanism in the archives at (www.whyshamanismnow.com).
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin hello dear beloved welcome to Township hunt podcast episode 191 I’m being joined Again by Christina Pratt who is one of my greatest most respected heroes in the shamanic community and a very prolific author and educator and practitioner and has training programs and and lots of amazing things that that I hope to Avail myself with some point in the future for now I’m just a big fan of her podcasts and MC bless this podcast back on episode number 125 but I was called demystifying the mechanisms of shamanic healing and it was a great intro to her personal background and her work and we got into some really core foundational Concepts within shamanic healing and I feel like that’s a really one of my favorite episodes of please do go back and listen to that for reference to Cristina’s work in more detail and to give a bit of a context for why we’re speaking again now a really it the inclination I had to reach out to her again to do another podcast it came within a couple of days of when I pretty much deleted all of the social social media applications from my phone and could give myself a real juxtaposition of how rigged up my nervous system had become an is addictive dopamine cycles of refreshing thing clicking on things and trying to keep up with the Joneses and on social media and how just absolutely perverse it felt and how Aunt it’s antithetical to my my values my deeper core values is like from deep ecology and Ann turkel primitivism in Neo luddism and things that were a lot easier to attach to as as political ideologies before everybody sort of got pushed and sucked into this this hyper cyber eyes the Internet connected world that over the last 20 it’s just sort of been this creeping phenomenon and so with his breath of fresh air I said all I got it I’ve got to ask Christina Christina to come on and talk about what a shamanic perspective from her perspective would be really more of a multidimensional perspective on what’s happening to our souls and what’s happening to the fragmentation of ourselves as we get sucked into these networks and then they betray us and all of the sort of issues that are coming up around humans relating human sexuality human self-esteem and answer character building and all these things I’m sure I just knew she would have a lot to say about it and so I’m excited to to have you back Christina and thank you for joining us again and if you would please give us one of your beautiful kind of incantation introductions help us get censored in the moment so we can look straight to look at these these issues from a good place alright alright engine tations alrighty then take a nice deep breaths and bring your awareness into your mind and another nice deep breath and sink your awareness into your heart and another nice deep breath and exhale and sync your awareness down into your belly and from your belly imagine your ability to reach down deeply into the center of the earth as if you were a lotus flower floating upon upon your little lily pad with your stem reaching down into the center of the earth and connecting deeply into the Earth and drawing up nourishment and Rejuvenation from the Earth and then without rising up and out of your head let’s just stay here in our bodies and let your awareness rise up that stand into the leaf of a lily and into the flowers of this Lily and as as the Lily that you are just opens here radiant and resplendent in your your simple beautiful blossoming Beauty allow the Rays of the Sun or perhaps you prefer the Rays of the Moon perhaps Starlight let this energy come down and touch your pedals and your lily pad and let yourself be open and receiving of the radiant energy from above and then just allow yourself as these above energies bra in the blessing and protection and the below energy straw up your nourishment and Rejuvenation that these energies kind of mix and merge there in that flower let that flower be present in your own belly I’m with another nice deep breath just have a sense of reaching out to the energies around us that we are here in a world that is alive with Spirits many many different kinds of spirit energies or life-force energy has many different frequencies however you want to think about it and just let yourself be present in this world relationship to other things and yet aware of where you end and these other things begin let that radiant Lily that you are have it space and be sure that you feel strong in yourself to take that space to show up to be here to take space be present in your life and to come into an even closer knowing of why you’re here what has value and meaning in your life and make sure that you lived this day in a way that serves those things that have purpose and meaning and value to your own thank you so much for that that was a beautiful a beautiful Journey I’ve been in the journey Space 2 degree now thank you for taking us there and I guess I’d like to ask there’s a couple of a couple of aspects one would be your personal thoughts and musings on just the evolution of communications technology throughout your life experience and acceleration and just your your lens on on that on that process and then and then we can talk about hopefully what in your practice working with people what you’re seeing is sort of the the case studies of people who are struggling with the the rapid acceleration of these Technologies and I’m curious like what’s showing up on your caseload so to speak and your classes whether it’s your clients are your students what you’re observing within the next Generation as as younger people are really being formed and shaped by the stick by the technologies that we can talk about how does that sound podcast and the way in which listeners who took it seriously many of them because I guess they felt they needed to that was that lonely person on the you know oil rigs in Alaska are some sort of cracking place or somewhere where they’re really frustrated with the situation that they’re in and they feel alone there in it being able to reach out to podcasts like yours like mine and to receive some sort of Lifeline that could keep their soul alive in these sometimes remote I’m sometimes not necessarily remote but some of Solace places that people can find themselves few days and people took some of these shows and frankly some of them did more with a sequence of podcast and some of my students doing my for your truck really interesting letters from different people I won’t go into all the details with the point of all of that was they taught me that we can use the technology in a good way and then when we do that it’s it can be a Lifeline to people and so that’s really inspired me to be willing to explore and not just say this is ridiculous why are we bothering would be really easy for me to say so so that’s the first Pieces Just Two recognizing that technology isn’t a replacement for what we don’t have it extends what we do have that’s how I tend to think about it so the podcast for example extend my reach as a teacher to to speak to people but also even Define people to resonate as student to that piece of information that’s shared in that podcast is that the same as studying with me for four years of course not but doesn’t mean it’s not a thing in its own right and so so the podcast allows that extension of the teaching eye because of the podcast and the audience that created I I took a step into teaching some of the things that I teach in online classes and online classes allow me to teach incrementally in a more natural whey versus always sees intensive download experiences when you come for a weekend or week and do everything all at once and still allows for a more organic step by step learning experience and so there’s even some advantages from the online learning and so these are just two examples of using the technology that is present and in a sense if I use the teaching example I didn’t really start doing it until the technology evolve to making it easy for us to offered live so that there could be alive components cuz that’s the piece that’s always what we already are it can be a great value where we use it to create something we aren’t or to spill avoid in our lives or to create something that we don’t already have we enter into a more addictive or codependent relationship with the technology or simply using the technology amplifier false self which we do a good enough job on our own we don’t need amplifier problem so so a lot of it then boils down to what is our relationship with technology and how are we using it and are we educating ourselves around the technology itself so so that to me is kind of the key place of being in right relationship with it now if we take that it just a step further make a circle back if you want to but a step further is recognizing that in Shamanism we actively engaged in in making the our relationships with everything around us real mean Shamanism is based in animism everything around is alive with its own kind of life force and that the way for us to be in the world respectfully is to is to honor and recognize those other life forces and do our best to be in relationship with them and there’s a series of podcast with Kelly Harrell is another amazing practitioner in North Carolina and shamanic practitioner and she and I have been talking about the influence masses of humanity can have on larger spirits so we’re particularly talking about spirits of the culture and of the land and of different places in this but the the gist of those conversations was the realization that our life isn’t sort of the way it’s presented through core Shamanism like the spirit world is this fixed thing and we can go visit there and basically no matter how we trash around we won’t break anything but what Kelly and I were saying is that that’s not what we’re experiencing and exploring in these toxins that that’s not really real that we are in relationship with the invisible world and that over time it is possible for us unintentionally or intentionally to begin to influence it in other words we can play very heavily on an energy in our environment to the degree that that energy in our environment eventually morphs or adjust in some way to to respond to our sort of giving it a responsibility that it isn’t supposed to have in so my point in bringing that up because it really speaks to how Humanity in its worst manifestations affects the world around us even those energies we would go to to seek help to get out of our worst manifestations you know so that should put a raise people’s red flag and there are there awareness of we don’t really have the luxury to be as messed up as we want to be for as long as we want to be taking as many lifetimes as we want to learn how to be a good human we really need to get with the program so that’s my little subjects there but the point of technology is what I what I realized after these calls with Kelly and I are the podcast with Charlie I thought oh wait a minute Christina you are in relationship with the spirit of technology in a bigger and bigger way in your life and in your work as weird as that is given that all of your work is Shamanism you need to get right with your in your relationship with the spirit of Technology and as I was getting ready to do the first online class I really saw clearly up our object for the spirit of technology and each of my classes We Begin by acknowledging the spirit of technology and asking it to support us but also asking it to grow up with us asking it to come it’s a young or our current technology that you and I are specifically talking about technology like a hammer or a Wheel Technologies electronic mostly computer-based internet-based Technologies is a relatively new and so they’re kind of Adolescent and they don’t really know if you think about it as a spirit it doesn’t really know who it is yet and that if we could come to it intentionally and with you know real Spears love and our heart and help to to grow it up as we might grow up a adolescent child with incredible power and really ask the spirit of technology to work with us to find out how it takes its place in the web of life as something that supports the web of life now we are not very good at that either right we’re kind of a pain in the existence of the web of life right now on the planet and it pretty big way and so in a sense we both need to grow up humanity and Technology need to grow up to understand how to how to take their rightful place in that Web of Life in a way that supports all life and I think technology could do that you’re back to me puts me in this really hopeful place of creativity and possibility and I think well how can I be involved in doing that and it in it puts me in a much better relationship with technology than a place I can get into very easily which is wanting to throw it across the room that’s not a very healthy mature relationship you want to throw things he is really recognizing that we aren’t just like guns right we are not talking about the thing itself being the problem but what we are doing with it the relationship that we are in with it is it another platform for us to express our power irresponsibly or is it an opportunity for me to express my power with responsibility alright well thank you so much for that discourse in I tend to agree and I really like that you were bringing the word Spirit to it a lot of people who would consider that to be or to new age or something would would cringe at the notion of or even people who are within the more sort of stereotypically spiritual and if things would say all know Tech is so lifeless and Solace and but really it’s a it’s an expression of human creativity so it’s almost like that that sort of semantic game of is anything unnatural because it came from nature kind of a thing so so I do from a domestic perspective I appreciate we can’t I mean it would be I think pretty foolish to deny that there are spiritual energies and intelligences around all of our inventions and if it’s not just the embodiment for the imbuing of that person’s intention into something that is to put his that is not no longer biological or if it’s kind of also something you’re saying about I mean what I’m seeing just thinking about it is that we’re creating all of our actions thoughts dreams inventions Technologies they’re creating some sort of dynamic relationship with the Unseen World and they’re the living astral plane and so we may be creating these certainly if these tickets if some of these social media apps are causing extreme unprecedented levels of teen suicide than there are entities that are crowding around these opportunities to hack and mess with and opportunistically take advantage of these new reached astral bodies if you will I don’t know if that’s so if you want to go in that direction but I think it would be great to talk more about this Dynamic interplay that you’re touching on between how we it’s not just like this that we are totally separate from the other side or the Ethereal plane but they’re actually were in a dynamic with them and we may be altering them and pull them anyway so those are my words but I love to hear what you have to say that continue that thread interesting when people in their spiritual lives in basically commit the same errors that they would accuse you know academics are politicians of making but because it’s in the service of their spirituality somehow it’s not a problem that I don’t have spirit I don’t I don’t know there was any human being who does know like that so interesting ly what is it called human-centric which always gives us in trouble I think there’s a really funny moment in a podcast with David Franklin Farkas on that he has a guest and he’s talking about working with space he does a lot of work with space and space clearing and he was talking about really just how he discovered that everything has spirit and he cuz he was of the same mind that certain things didn’t but he really discovered as he did works at that was really kind of a foolish and naive perspective and she has this really funny thing about talking to the spirit of a microwave oven because he’s responding about the qualities of that Spirit you go yeah that’s a microwave that’s not a puppy you know anyway so my point about all of this is that we really need to be aware of the nature of our relationships with things so first for example to understand that designers of apps for our phones that. The operating principle is you want to design an app that is the first thing a person does when they wake up and the last thing they do when they go to bed and it feels you know the time in between okay that’s like creating a designer drug and I don’t mean a drug for shamanic you know spiritual experience I mean a drug to get people hooked so you make money and so part the thing about using these things is we need to be educated intelligent consumers me to have healthy boundaries as we need to have with all other advertising me in and the problem with being a kid using these things is they’re not there yet and so we as the adults need to figure out how are we managing that role in the lives of our children which I already just now I’m rolling my eyes because there’s a whole lot about our role as adults that we’re not managing in the lives of our children are not even supervised anymore University doing a training and University students from all over the world it was really exciting environment to be in and out at mealtime the kids tended to sit with their friends from their own country and whatever training programme Rihanna whatever and was very interesting to see the difference culturally with these kids that were mostly like High school-age kids and their phones are certain cultures no funds on the table everybody’s talking and laughing and you know just this side of a food fight and you know enjoying each other and then other cultures wherever it was absolutely everybody is on their phone just eating the mindlessly eating and looking at what’s on your phone I was very culturally specific sad but also really interesting to realize that there are places in the world that are way healthier than we are 17 different kinds of coffee you can have in the morning but they don’t have them are just not addicted to them cuz they have different cultural standards but yeah you you’re absolutely right in that you know our kids do learn to do what we do not what we say I am so it’s really hard to enforce some sort of boundaries around your phone use when you’re on your phone at dinner too turn in restaurant all the time soon as the people who would say that I guess it’s not it’s not you don’t have to be Ted Kaczynski to have a critique of of these things that that everyone can witness and the articles in mainstream obviously magazines and what not and I always just leading up to this conversation I was thinking about how trying to just take myself mentally in a time machine back before there were back before people had this before cell phones are ubiquitous and and I was fully grown at adult before cell phones even the so-called dumb phones where you could barely text message even before that and it was just knew you would someone was home or they weren’t home and so that would determine your plans for the night or if you’re going to do a delivery you’re going to use a Thomas Brothers guide to figure out what you’re going in life was a lot slower and and into some degree I would say more more pleasant and more interconnected and if you wanted to have a good time you had to kind of earn it and work for it and go out and and be forced to go out forced to go find places where people are gathering and sewed I have Nostalgia for that in my lifetime and it’s I guess it’s easy for me to still remember that and have some context on this but even now it says the so-called Millennials or are just the internet natives they say I guess the people who are born into Google and the Google ization of I guess you could call whatever you want but but I feel like it’s it’s almost past say now or it’s cliche to have a to lament maybe not the loss of the golden age before this but certainly lament just the all of the all of the road the increasing in an in an accident on my stuff there’s just so many indicators that are undeniable cisno long is no longer really this contentious debate where you need you know you need to have some extreme radicalism to challenge this stuff but what I what I feel like is missing from from this dialogue is what you would bring as a more shamanic perspective is to what what’s happening if you were to do the cross section of the astral body and the soul and to sort of the United States early to to scare people straight or to shock them although This Bitter from a small degree of a few just a couple few weeks now it’s saying what will this is I feel very violated by my own of all people I should have been I should have known better not to have gotten so sucked into this dysmorphia and his character Distortion of keeping up with the Joneses at a pace that’s just impossible to and you just start to merge with this this device and then you were living in this augmented reality of ranking and scoring and everything is a leaderboard and and so anyway you’re taking a step back from that and I’m and I have to think about how did I know better and what should I know about her and how am I going to not fall into that trap again and so I think about how K now that I have this moment of Sanity I want to sort of build in those healthier adaptive strategies and have more of a sensitivity to what it feels like when you’re being manipulated by your own your own neurochemistry right and that’s just on the the sort of physical print out playing but it but you would want to talk more about Soul loss and what your conception of how the soul Parts get caught up in our cycle dramas in their sexual dramas in in our personality ego structures and just what what you would see from that lends as his what’s happening in America in transition a bit to to what you’re what you’re experiencing if you have to a people away from their their phones when you’re trying to teach them in a class or if you have people coming to you for for care and counseling and and healing who are in mashed and some in this sort of digital Fabric and how it’s affecting their at them at the soul level I think that are important relative what you’re asking the the simpler one in a sense would be you know how do I manage that technology with my students because I do I can think of two students right now absolutely speed Wizards taking their notes on their phone when I can barely read my phone at my age and and in really complex and wonderful ways and that supports their process and so part of that piece is okay here are students to understand they need to not be connected to the internet while they’re doing this but they can certainly use this as a means by which they’re going to take their notes and track what’s going on and that I have to be as a teacher not annoyed by that but they also have to not annoy me by having it make sounds having finding seen that they’re not really listening to me they’re really checking their Facebook page that was that person wouldn’t get a second chance for me to stop like if you were in my class checking your Facebook page instead of paying attention when people write you need to leave cuz you’re not remotely mature enough to be that you can’t not check your Facebook page for 4 hours some people just had a heart attack just so you know if water is the people who just heard that and when they thought they imagined for hours without checking Facebook back to your heart of I think the piece that you’re the missing here is people that have no boundaries with this tool none whatsoever and so this is why this matters mean we can go into it from that way but that’s kind of a long walk let’s take a short pass the short path is this we need to put ourselves in the context of our purpose of our souls reason for being here and to do things in our life that allow us to express our actual reason for being here is what fills our life with meaning and purpose so there is nothing else not on your phone not on Facebook not there is no other substitute not drugs not not relationships not anything that will substitute you bringing yourself into context with your Soul’s purpose and so to the extent that technology just becomes one other way you’re avoiding doing that or Worse creating a false idea that you are your only making the Contemporary issue worse because this is already a huge contemporary issue for people to be able to track who they are and why they’re here now part of that is because they come to their young adults were already in a state of Soul loss and for many many people there so lost does have a certain relationship with their why they’re their purpose and why they’re here so so to been moved from a place that’s already estate of so lost into these false versions of connection of intimacy of intimacy with yourself of trying to find your soul purpose out there by clicking on the surveys and things on the internet all of that is just an ongoing sofa tray and so part of understanding the damage that is being done by the technology is not anything new in the sense that it’s just one more profoundly addictive and distracting way the Contemporary people avoid the personal work required to come to right relationship with their soul and then to maintain that right relationship as a guide in what they choose to do with their lives and their many Millennials who would go look lady I am working three jobs just to try to pay a ridiculously high rent and my phone bill and pay for my marijuana and you know he’s other things that are considered necessary for contemporary life like well I understand that that doesn’t change the fact that you are a soul who chose to inkarnate at this time so these are the challenges that you are choosing to have to deal with just as I chose that is a mile and the fact that the world kind of sucks is not an excuse to not deal with the ways the world sucks and the way that gives you a possibility to either be diverted from your soul purpose or you use the world around you as the raw material to get to your soul purpose and so and so’s purpose isn’t about follow your bliss and have a happy life Soul Purpose is a really challenging way of life that is cultivated but the reason to bother is that it does have deeply Soul satisfying meaning and purpose it makes it gives us a life in which we feel still that’s a human being and we believe that we’ve matter and that’s really what we want and that’s a really challenging thing to create in our Contemporary American world at this time because the culture around you is not encouraging that you do that and even many of the spiritual practices that you would think would be encouraging you to do that or actually encouraging you to follow their rules and to bypass that deep work that would bring you to your own personal uniqueness and unique genius and maybe not be so willing to follow along so the problem with the aspect of Technology you’re talking about is that it’s a light out of context you’re not in contacts with your own soul purpose I would never post anything about as deeply intimate as my sole purpose work on any of the social media platforms is totally inappropriate nobody would so it’s not helping me so so think about it like Google is kind of a wonderful thing it’s wonderful to be able to get pieces of information when you need them as long as it’s accurate which is another issue okay but that information is completely out of context and into the meaning of information changes relative to its context so the meaning of you as a person in the world changes relative to your contacts in your proximity to your Soul’s purpose and so again these activities any addiction drives us away from our purpose because we’re repeating that thing that were addicted to instead of getting at the uniqueness and the innovation of our actual Soul Purpose and so this the piece of the technology that you’re talking about right now create this false idea and for those people that are young and naive and don’t have parents actually modeling something different they don’t even necessarily know it’s a false idea that’s Rudy’s online groups and online activities in all of this stuff that there’s somehow going to create a true sense of the things I have meaning and value to their heart and my experience is that the things that have meaning and value to my heart are not found outside of that context of me as an embodied human in my heart I need to be in the world I need to be connected to people need to be connected to the energies around me and Technology as one of those energies but it can’t take over and spill all of my my porch if you will for connection to other things if it it can’t it can’t be my sole interface with other things unless we’re talking about someone who has some sort of challenge in their life so that technology is literally the only connection to other things right but that’s all she does let some people who would otherwise not be able to connect to connect but really what we’re talking about is people that are addicted to their technology that are not in a relationship with technology and so what is doing then is taking people that are already arriving in their young adult life in a state of Soul Los usually estate of really poor energy body hygiene and worse than that not very clear idea about what is actually going on here energetically as a person in the world and is sold as a lot of huge misinformation and all of that Googling around and traipsing about the internet there’s a lot of really bad as in really inaccurate information and so people are arriving at that place with with scads of bad information around them inaccurate information around them with no skills no ability to discern and then engaging in these platforms that take them even further from their Center and further from the truth and so it’s certainly not helping but it’s also taking that passion that we have in our twenties to find our purpose and do what we have what has real meaning to our heart it burns that passion out so it’s not so much that I see people necessarily more fragmented because of it it’s more that I see people’s fire to do anything about it being frazzled and burned out that I see their focus dispersed that I see there Lerner that’s trying to learn and understand what’s really going on here completely distorted with Vault ideas and really toxic understanding of what it is to be here as a spirit in the world of sleep kind of simple easy to do but simple that’s more my sense is that that via the information we get from these platforms and our engagement in these platforms our own energy structure and our desire and our heartfelt Focus all of these inner qualities that in the past would just in the past what would happen if someone would just go I keep falling into this pattern let me see the heater that can help me deal with this find Charmin get Soul retrieval get Soul Park Bark in a great stop falling into the pattern closer to Soul Purpose mean it was a pretty simple you know here in the physical world action and now people get on really convoluted Pathways before they make it to my door and they’ve done so much greater damage to themselves following those Pathways energetically I mean what I want to make steering is not so much more so long is because there’s already a ton of so lost when I’m experiencing is people who are creating mental illness that they don’t actually have that’s more what I see I’m energetic and mental mental emotional going from a place of mental and emotional discomfort which is pretty typical for someone who’s 18 19 20 years old in America to a place of where they’ve actually gone through mental and wellness mental emotional and wellness into a state of mental illness that they’re now getting Pharmaceuticals for Why does adding a whole nother level of distraction from Center and I’m not carte blanche saying Pharmaceuticals are bad when I’m talking about is someone who’s created the state of mental illness simply through their use of technology that they don’t really have and so now they’re getting these really strong chemicals into their body and into their brain really for no reason because they aren’t actually the kind of person who has a biochemical reason for those right you know this is something just came up for me as you’re talking about this really this all kids close to home in a lot of ways and I’m trying to think about how this conversation with people who are growing up now in this Ambience of internet-connected devices in Google information and all of the all these platforms were talking about and someone said not too long ago, where I heard this but it was it was kind of like every generation is going to have this resistance by the old curmudgeons you know who say back in my day and I was like this it was harder you had to work harder to do XYZ and now it’s easier because it Technologies to your spoiled and then there’s this sort of bitterness going both ways about you don’t you’re imposing these outdated values on me and you don’t get it and then so something that was kind of a record point of reconciliation between the generations that I heard recently was just this notion of where ya at people’s parents said the same thing about comic books when comic books were distracting us from their homework and they’re so perfect that whatever it was and it makes me even think about will the the juxtaposition between literacy and the printing press and literacy and how that would allow them to think about the whole some good old days of women read romance novels and boys stereotypically gendered Etc reading comic books and and the sort of what I would like to say well with a healthier template would be a slower data stream coming through Reading text where you would do no just have you wouldn’t have 50 books and magazines that you were you were relentlessly swapping to actually make an analogy you would have to for the amount of data streams you would have to be having a million TV channels and a hundred bucks a hundred magazines and a bunch of conference calls and things that you were just tapping through that was that was a novice a possible in my area of growing up and and there was just a more protected. Of pre-internet books and magazines and and social events that you would physically have to go out to and you could only do that maybe once once a couple times a week and so you know I’m just looking at this sort of what what are the essential patterns that that kind of are recursive throughout time and have a sort of cyclical pattern going on and in something that that hit me just now as a member there was a point where I remember clearly where I was at a birthday gift was someone took me out to the Wilderness on a hike of a mountain and I was so glued to video games at that time even their primitive state what we would consider very primitive now it was in they say this about pornography to they say that the therapist are saying that it’s a quote supra-normal or supernormal experience that you set a standard to and then being intimate with a real life human being doesn’t cut it for you because you’re you’re nervous system is so jacked up on these these completely artificially induced levels of chemistry that you couldn’t experience otherwise known as being generated by this computer interface so you know for me I remember how disappointed I was when I was going to be almost dragged out into nature to go on a hike and how absolutely DeLand dead and boring and even lifeless that experience was and how how betrayed I felt that that I would have to have section non-adventurous in an exciting experience and and it was all because I would just have rather have been sitting there playing a video game when I was getting spiked with all these I’m killing someone I’m being killed I’m maker not making some sort of digital gold value and I’m all of these buttons of teen pushed and I’m just at a rate that was that was unprecedented and so this virtual I guess it’s the virtualization of of the things that motivate our nervous system pleasure and seeking pleasure avoiding pain and whatnot and and another plastic came to me was just this this idea of whenever I whenever I’ve looked at the Tabloid covers of you know the Tabloid news stands in the aisles at the supermarket throughout my entire life I just felt this toxic losing Force this presents won’t talk about a spirit of something and I just could feel it and it was never and it was obviously Bogus Basin the fake block Ness monster stuff and then all of the drama and it was so over-the-top hype that it was easy to resist that I can never felt compelled to his to get sucked into that vortex but now that I see you it’s happened really is that everybody has made this like a tabloid ization of every individual and there’s an endless market for it and just this monstrosity it’s feeding on everybody the same impulse that you would have had to open up that tabloid is now you aren’t you have become the Tabloid and you want the more attention you get onto your digital tabloid Persona online and all these different platforms there more validation you’re getting and it’s just as it’s just Nick seems to be like you said about the designer drugs are just manipulating these low-hanging fruit aspects of our lower self that was more of just a rant you know something to put on a fit if you have I don’t wait around here and there well actually I want you to go back to the first part of that that you said about the idea that it’s cyclical and every generation thinks you know the younger generation looks ridiculous in their passion or whatever like that I mean obviously at the same time there is science behind how visual images and training ourselves through Visual images is actually affecting our minds that there’s so where the difference between the generations is this meat to this programming the brain to the repetition of visual images and we start talking about something different entirely and it’s not even just a different kind of fruit it’s like the difference between fruit and a tank and so they’re there is a study and I can’t pull out the actual specifics about where someone could go Google it right now maybe someone could go find it and tell me they found it so I can do that but basically in the study they were looking at the kill rate in World War II versus the kill rate of Vietnam and they found that in World War II that the honest truth was that most soldiers would rather take someone prisoner than kill them and so the kill rate was very low like 20% or something and that wasn’t acceptable for Vietnam they wanted to figure out how to train soldiers to go for a higher kill rate and what they found were was training them through a visual interface which is of course the technology that preceded video games and so basically when people are playing you know violent video games that are teaching them to not to override their natural instinct to not show people or things will never have I ever the game is that you’re basically being train your natural human instinct is being trained out of you to be a better killer and to not hesitate and that actually they change the kill rate for family through that training and Vietnam just something like 70% or 80% in the numbers which is frightening and at the same time you also had guys that went to Vietnam that I said look I don’t care what you do I don’t care about a dishonorable discharge get me out of this situation and send me back home so part of it is this really understanding that there was a conscious there were many conscious choices made that created a change between in a world war kind of way of going about live and Vietnam and our lives since Vietnam and learnt so the same thing is true then operating with porn and how has you were saying it’s training is it’s this visual training that is different from just looking at still pictures the different engagement in our brain it affects our brain differently and and partly another version of this another aspect of study around this is with children who are placed in front of videos instead of red tube instead of being read to sorry he’s my grammar here and that when a child is listening to a story they’re developing the part of their brain that imagines and visualize is in creates the the picture then go with the story that the person is reading but they find that children that are raised by being given pictures so raised on video so the end screen so the screens are being given to that pictures are being given to them they don’t have to develop their imagination okay so from a shamanic perspective this is going to be our downfall perhaps it already is being our downfall because our relationship with the invisible World operates through our brain’s capacity to access its imagination and then how did the spirit world essentially use the imagination to tell us things just the same way we all do when we dream at night and that imaginary dream world is telling us things sometimes things are not really very useful but sometimes but the point is from a shamanic perspective my ability to have a reliable relationship with spirit is driven entirely by my ability to open up my imaginary sense as much as usual but to open up my sensory body to an imaginary experience which then has meaning when it’s interpreted accurately that gives that’s how I gained guidance in my life is how I find a full part of how I know what to do in my own life it’s how I need a program that is going to be able to initiate teenage kids and fix that problem in our culture all of that is created because I have this ability to work in this whole creative relationship with spirit that is absolutely dependent on the part of my brain that imagines show to choose to not develop that part of your brain not develop that part of your children’s brain to allow it to be fed images and not ever develop the capacity to imagine means when that child is a young adult and is trying to imagine a better future they can’t do it they literally can’t do it because they haven’t developed the part of the brain that can imagine anything that they haven’t seen said to them so that aspect the visual aspect of the technology is really problematic and it’s why you get more likes when you post a picture with your posts because we gravitate to these pictures but they’re their eye candy and two even in working in this is how we spell the Visionary state in Shamanism it’s not purely visual the eyes are very easy to trip also and so it’s really about bringing your full Century body into these experiences but if I’ve been having images fed to me my whole sensory body can just be lazy if the soundtrack and the everything is just coming at me the images soundtrack all that I’m I’m not engage my sensory body isn’t engaged my ability to imagine a better future isn’t engaged so all of these qualities that are absolutely essential to living a fulfilling spiritual life are being dead are the visual piece and so in that sense of all it’s just like comic books well not really it isn’t it’s actually highly problematic and so one of the most important things for parents and many of 2013 old people our parents is that you understand this and you make different choices raising your kids the mermaid with you and that you understand that there is a serious effect delete deleterious to having children’s brains raised by video well I just had a a rash of chills when you got to that that point and I think that is probably be beyond the desired effect of what I was looking to create with the designer drug of this podcast switch with two to really address in and treat these issues but that study that you brought in with with the I mean the exit I should say I’m like I’m going to make a note to include this link in the show notes one of the most endearing films of my childhood was the I think we just called toys with Robin Williams and LL Cool J so worried I want to respect your time we’re we covered a lot here and I thank you so much again for for delivering more than I even expected and I think that was the the most potent way to to kind of wine this down with some some real practical advice about about monitoring what we all take in visually I guess I want to ask you now if with whatever time you have left to talk a bit about what you might see as some strategies for I mean lyrics I would say it’s just a simple as well just go out in nature but I was maybe 8 9 10 years old when that didn’t work for me and that was way before the level of sophistication with stick with this with these games and mass jol would go out and play in the woods and I still would do it for its and what not but but it was losing its appeal and so it’s not as simple as you’re saying turn your phone off and go to a yoga retreat or something there’s going to have to be other other steps taken and and you’re very very pragmatic I don’t know I wouldn’t say you’re really kind of you’re grounded you’re not to move about your precious to these things I’m just wondering if you if you have thought about it or if you’re working on something maybe you will develop some sort of some techno fast tree protocol or something but today just curious if you want to end on that some things that are that may help us get out of this this digital quicksand but I offer people would I consider the fundamental step out of that quicksand in an online class that I believe is absolutely essential if people are going to make the shift and be able to come into kind of a into a responsible it kind of relationship with technology that is response all that is powerful but is responsible and I people have to get their however they’re going to get there but I think the idea of just not engaging with it that feast-or-famine has its problem because they were not growing up the spirit of Technology right and while we’re over here trying to not engage with it it’s taking over the world right it was people teaching it to not grow up so I think that part of it is to figure out who do you want to be engaging with technology where where are your boundaries and end-to-end to make some clear decisions on uphold those decisions but mostly I really want to encourage people especially people that are in this I can’t remember what you said was an interesting name of the generation of being raised on the internet but anyway what I really want to encourage people to do is to understand that you read about joy and satisfaction in becoming subversive become a subversive who is Unser do so and if you can do that in your life to become subversive and recognize that you are being completely seduced into being a consumer that’s all that’s going on and that’s so expensive you should be horribly offended by that and want to subvert that system so I really encourage you all this find that inner trickster irrevocably person who wants to subvert A system that thinks so little of you and your unique genius but it just wants to turn you into a shopper it just wants you to consume he wants you to buy the next phone the next app it just sees you as a consumer and be offended by that to become subversive and in that to become unsecured small which means you can engage with whatever you choose to engage with within the boundaries that you set and that relationship of healthy relationships with it whether it’s sex or drugs or technology or whatever and and really draw what is good and true and beautiful and things out of them and not get lost in the swamp and so that would be my my thing as y’all are young you know become beings and change the world it needs to be changed so that’s what I would say Bravo of all that sounds almost tearing up hearing those words didn’t really that’s that’s why I got into punk rock and that’s why I’m still out there trying to to rock the boat however he can and that why we’re having this conversation and yeah this the spirit of wildness will will live on in and again thank you for for just balancing this as well nnn we’re not going to have an effect on the trajectory of this of this technology Technologies if we withdraw and Retreat and lamented in in the in a Shack in the woods yeah we will keep doing our best here will thank you Christina so much yeah I look forward to the next time and it’s really always it’s a blessing to have you share your insights and I will just again recommend that folks please check out why Shamanism Now podcast there will be links here and that you have any other links or anything you want to talk about promotions or anything coming up you want to share we want to find classes there at last mask Center. Org okay and that’s also where to go to get to go why Shamanism now for the podcast directly or so much I had a great time and again look forward to the next time and you have a great and wonderful rest of your evening please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is the seeming and improving the podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess temples every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been at Contra Punk. Com Thomas Day