In this episode I’m joined by Dr. Victoria Reuveni, a highly experienced and accomplished sexuality educator and healer. We explore the ins and outs of sexological bodywork, some of the bottle-necks of the practice, and compare notes on how we would like the field of hands-on sexual healing grow and evolve as it reaches and helps more and more people and gains more momentum and recognition in all of it’s diverse modalities.
Please visit her website at:
Dr. Victoria Reuveni, DHS, CSB, ACSI, is a Los Angeles-based sexological bodyworker, sex educator, and coach working with individuals, couples, and groups to facilitate going deeper in erotic embodiment and self-acceptance through mindfulness, breath work, and touch. She blogs about sex, kink, gender, and body image and reviews sex toys.
Victoria is a board member and educator with the Center for Positive Sexuality, speaking on panels to university students and professionals about kink/BDSM, nonmonogamy, and sex work.
She has facilitated over thirty Orgasmic Yoga circles, including a six-week series and monthly circles in Los Angeles, a three-evening mini-series in 2016 in Sacramento which will be reprised in June 2017.
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin hello dear beloved’s welcome to Township hunting podcast episode number 106 I am here with Victoria the sexologist Vixen and she’s got an amazing array of qualifications as a sex. One of the most comprehensive personalities I’ve yet discovered and then she’s really skilled in a number of modalities sexual healing and Bodywork modalities that have been touched on before I say briefly in the past and past episodes and so this is going to be a real treat to be able to go and deeply explore some of you some very cutting-edge sexuality and sexual therapeutic modalities out there so give us an introduction tell us about how you achieved all these great things and what your life has been like and what you’re offering now and what’s what’s next to chat so I wouldn’t say that when I started on this past that I knew I’d be touching people and helping them for pleasure and things like that but I guess growing up I was raised in an Orthodox Jewish household upbringing I went to Orthodox Jewish schools through 12th grade but also I was raised living in West Hollywood California open this happening around me but also not so much opportunity around sex positivity and things like that so that was super interested and then fast forward to my undergrad I found out that I was a Psychology major and I noticed I was taking a few classes that were we call it part of the requirement to meet for human sexuality minor so I was like okay I’m actually super interested in this I think at the time I’ve been listening to a couple podcasts and my appetite you know was was like open and ready as hungry for kind of anything and so yeah I went sort of down that human sexuality minor and start of by the time maybe like what he called like within like a semester or two before I was graduating of the kindest abandoned this whole psychology side of things is like too much and I at that point I knew I did not want to go into practice or like having to diagnose people or pathologize people in it’s a it’s kind of a mess but anywho after I graduated I didn’t really know where my path is going to take me knowing that I didn’t want to become a psychologist and so I was looking into programs that had human sexuality like doctorates or or Master’s programs things like that and through whole series of events and searching and being rejected from universities which happens and turn out to be blessings in Disguise I went to The Institute in San Francisco and was working on my doctorate in human sexuality was just I was qualified not if you did see but more it’s a DHS sexuality which was very much more about experiential learning and challenging by season and preconceived notions and things like that rather than necessarily academically rigorous which suited me just fine like all of them work with masturbation but there was a chunk of that but definitely a lot more like reading and dust exposure to some amazing amazing resources to be videotaped all their lectures like from like the 70s so even though I didn’t get to see people in person but I got to feel like Weird Al Pomeroy who is Kenzie’s right hand person so there’s a really phenomenal much has to be exposed to and and also coming into things eBay stuff so around the time I was working through my doctorate they had an offering for psychological Bodywork training which at the time I intended to take because I was thinking well I’m kind of leaning towards going until like coaching kinds of things and and you know hoping to work we know one-on-one or maybe with couples are groups or various configurations like that but how dare I someone who’s hoping to teach or work with folks around pleasure or overcoming sexual concerns how do how do I even touch that or you know work with that if I have no understanding of of the body and the body can do so I just took that as sort of adding to my toolbox I was kind of no intention to to use it and I even going through the at home training in the first portion of of of the training I have a bit of resistance and I was like I don’t want to find peoples buttholes and massage buttholes so difficult you know if you like critical dragged my feet even though I was very like conscious of the fact that I paid to do this and then we had our in-person intensive part of the training real work done each other and some kind of lightbulb rice which kind of turn on for me and I’ll actually complimented on my touch which was like kind of huge and revelatory and so kind of from there I’ve my focus has been more on sex logical Body Works and trying to delve more until like expanding pleasure sides of things a little bit more than overcoming concerns per say although that is no the other side of the coin and then the orgasmic yoga portion of my recent stuff that I’ve been doing is that when we were going to the training for sexological Bodywork we did we were exposed to through some of the videos and things we had to watch and some of the end part of it was that when we were we will start our days each day during orgasm and so it was like there’s there’s nothing that will compare to being in a room with 20 something people of all different ages and genders and presentations and orientation Court being a note constantly and Body in touch as happening like 10 hours a day for 2 weeks but I I love the practice and I want to try to encapsulate at least a little tiny nugget I can share with folks and I found through somewhat consistent practice of this all so that I’m able to tap into my own like authentic glasses and nose and it’s been really really amazing to like BB and ion process and hold other people’s process used process used throughout and so those are kind of the two things I do I also sporadically blog really bad about consistency and I review sex toys sometimes yes consistency is a thing but yeah that’s kind of me in a nutshell okay so great so how did people or what what do you mean offerings then in your your location and, if you were doing a promo piece what was you what would you like people to to know about what you have to offer so I am based out of Los Angeles and I have been holding orgasmic yoga circles between one and two. Like one or two a month for the past few months said love for folks to know check that out through my website and find out more it’s not for everybody but super edgy so Mike I got it but there’s a form their questions and I kind of like four people through that I don’t have a current date yet on my calendar yet for that but possibly another one at the end of April I just had one this Tuesday so I still haven’t attacked that down yet to see and yeah just one-on-one or or partnered or couple’s sort of Hands-On work if that feels right or just coaching some people just don’t have a space and Sara Lee to talk about sexuality or like what’s going on with them and so I feel like I’m kind of you know I’m a dork I feel like I’m pretty approachable and I’m goofy and I don’t claim to like have all the answers that will solve all things but I think a big part of what I do is in permission giving and giving people options who’s who doesn’t love option Hawaii have or when you can head and right on well that’s that’s wonderful so Yaz mentioning before that 6 logical body work has been near and dear to me through various friends and colleagues and I feel like this would be a great opportunity if you were if you’re interested to kind of give an overview of what the training is what you know about the background and and how it really stands out is a very unique opportunity for people in the sex industry for people who are in the therapeutic industry and in feels it’s a really amazing sort of under under what would it be I would like you to have to have more people to have way more understanding awareness that this is that this option exists and it’s really it’s been it’s kind of underground as a practice compared to many other modalities that are getting a lot of press in a lot of you know just people that are hip to a lot of other offerings but this is something that is could be the most pivotal and impactful for anyone and everyone is certainly people who are doing with drama and survivors so yeah with that said if you could just introduced that years ago like around this time so like in the spring so but my recollection of it is correct it came kind of from I stink like Body Electric sorts of a community I don’t know if you know about them but they’re very much like a rhotic embodiment practice and I think the focus is more on on men but they might be bringing more women stuff now I’m a little fuzzy on that and I don’t want to speak totally I’m incorrectly but I think it’s kind of weird that started I’m Joseph Kramer was one of the biggest I think people behind that and yeah we still have some of his old videos or just pretty fun and so the the whole thing behind it is that you know talk sorts of therapy can kind of only go so far the super valuable and I know I couldn’t you just that which is obviously, I I I chose not to go down that path but there’s so much learning and wisdom that can be found sabbatical you know in the body and because of you know various laws and all these other sorts of red tape and things a lot of talk therapists can’t do touch so I think it would be valuable and this is actually one of the things I’m kind of envious about intern like in comparison to surrogate partner therapy wishes that they work in a triadic model with you know the practitioner and a therapist and the client where the start of sex logical body workers are kind of on their own kind of would be nice to have some folks like me that way but you been on that for just a second cuz I I like that word yet so if I’m if I’m assuming an understanding correctly a triadic model so that’s where four if if you were a sex surrogate it’s allowed legally and I don’t know how many states are jurisdictions but it exists as a as a legal serve certification or role that you can have so that you can actually have full on sexual intercourse if you were referred by a by a state licensed psychotherapist to have that experience as part of your treatment plan and so is that what you mean by the Triad there’s like a kind of a free-floating and sex prescription 6 a.m. constant check in with the person who is also working through whatever it is you know Siri talk to or talk modality and then having sort of accountability system happening all things are being communicated but also I mean sex doesn’t always necessarily happen in that space and if it does it’s usually the last thing and a lot of cases I’m totally going off on a tangent but it is different from a good point to make is that a lot of times in Insurgent work it’s more fun working like with intimacy and so being able to feel like a real late with another person and kind of creating sort of our world kinship for this. Of time with you know a beginning middle and an end and it’s kind of structured in a certain way and yes you know sex whatever penetration might happen but that’s way way down below and I think that’s not that’s not something but usually known or is not understood you’re saying that the the The Stereotype from the outside is that you’re illegal sex worker who has sex for money that’s legal but what you’re saying is actually that’s either a small part of it or maybe not even necessarily has to happen but it’s it’s it’s allowed to happen legally for late cuz for some people maybe they they have trouble you no talking to the the gender person that they are attracted to their have trouble you know like holding hands or making whatever the moves are or or I gave thing or any of these things and I could be a huge sources of anxiety and so having this sort of very structured safe space to practice these things is super valuable like no one teaches anyone to be sexually literate we just hope you know hey you turn 18 in magical you’re supposed to know how to do all these things that we haven’t ever talked about them right cuz you know teenagers turn on it or not you know they’re not sexually a conversation or able to do things actually happen before we before we go for it this is really just really exactly what I was hoping to find out so I appreciate it yet by all means take your time with it with everything so what is would so crucial to me in in in this these understandings is how the logic of the patriarchal institutions of government and morality and I’m Center he actually what precedents there are to build new policy on in and what does I know you’re not actually a lawyer you’re operating in in in territories that lawyers have been fighting on the front lines of and there’s been a lot of it we’re all standing on the backs of giants from all of the precedent setting cases that have happened so that we want we want it I’m not I’m not expecting you to go into all that stuff but I have one question which you may or may not have any reason to to have an answer to but it’s I’m super curious now as we’re going into the surrogate discussion a little bit is are there health insurance programs that cover the the therapy that there that the truck that that triadic model of accessing services for mental health or is it totally not covered yet and I don’t know currently but my my understanding or like my recollection is that no there I don’t think there is much support a connection with like you know mental health jobs at least not in the US I would think and probably I could be totally wrong and I hope people will correct me because I’m open to learning and you know knowing but and that’s also becomes a thing that’s a huge problem in terms of just you know health and mental health in all these things that is it’s the services that maybe are available or difficult for folks who don’t have resources and can you know if you don’t have you know if you can’t pay for the services cuz it’s one thing to maybe go to a therapist or maybe one thing to go to a body worker but then you’re paying for two Services if it’s can be costly and you know I don’t want to put any of my fellow folks out of out of work but it’s it’s this whole I don’t know like House of Cards in a way we’re like we don’t we don’t have these conversations or we shut sexuality down like four entire lives and then it just becomes whole other thing where you need to find services to have outlets in and learn and explore in at least four things well thank you. That was that was kind of what I feel like this is where this is an edge for growth where people who are you know coming in to do with fresh energy and resources and you know will power and who can actually say wow well there’s got to be a way to to make the make these healing modalities more accessible because it’s some point I think we’ll be able to prove that if you sell people’s sexual issues than every other mental illness just instantly evaporates for is at least a lot easier to manage it could be that means there’s a lot and we totally will get sidetracked on this but I think there’s definitely the other issue of mainstream mental health maybe is not so sex positive so you might happen to be like kinky and you’re going in to see you know what therapist for depression they’re like well obviously you’re depressed because you’re doing the you know wacky things are you want to go to dungeons but meanwhile I was like no no like I’m actually just depressed and it’s a problem I don’t even know how to begin this early to unravel but yeah I like the way he called the boundary sort of are around meaning and what is cuz it’s addressing all these things were talking about so yeah but yeah so the training was over several months and there was an at-home abortion where we had videos and various readings we had to do and we were we had a check in you know you know through a forum and all that kind of stuff so we were kept on task and so we had to like work on ourselves or work fine folks to work on and then later we had a man in in person intensive training where we basically went through all of it we had just done but together in a group and I totally like I’m not doing it justice because we were super embodying like we were consoling touching each other in these various you know with basically within the same containers we would do so sex logical body work is done it is 1 way touch so practitioner touch his client client does not touch the practitioner the practitioner is closed and we use gloves for any genital work so that’s not the same like the work isn’t super intimate because hey you might be naked and guy in touch and also working through concerns are discovering new things about yourself and your pleasure and Regina Simmons and all these different things as compared to like something like a surrogate work it’s it’s less intimate because we’re there as petitioner sort of to be like the vehicle I would say help sort of reframe and reflect and give permission to the folks who come to see us yeah so we would we did this sort of you know several Hands-On sessions every day for like about 2 weeks like super and body like wow and then following that we had to go in fine folks to work on and I think like the main purpose of that and it might have may have changed in the four years since I went through the training I think the structure is basically the same is mainly we want to try to work with clients and also like create like a structure where it’s like multiple sessions over time cuz certainly can get a lot of learning from one session but as much as we want to be like in some gratification like cool I’m fixed or you know the shift might not be after the Quinn sessions so you might need a minimum of three to start seeing different things moving shifting and learning from your body Okay so what were some of the I mean with this sounds it’s funny cuz it sounds like this training is it would be for a lot of people the first time that they’ve engaged in any kind of group sexual activity and Maybe not maybe that’s wrong maybe most people have already come from pretty liberated background but it’s very interesting to me Imagining the what kind of what kind of Transformations were happening just in that that classroom environment I have I can just imagine that some people would be experiencing their own hulings and having explosive Transformations happening just right there and probably what was it what was it like to be in at the Academy of sexual healing with yeah I can I can only really speak to my own experience in that but to see like all the different sorts of bodies definitely ask someone who is fat and has been fat their entire life it’s it was super empowering to see if they’re all different shapes and sizes and you know levels of firmness or not in all these different bodies and guess what they all can experience you know yummy feelings so yeah I might not be maybe like in love with or accepting of the fact that my belly is not you know whatever but hey it’s soft and it feels it is ticklish and all these different like other things I like Jeremih. Myself in any way interested in this washboard abs for all gen I’m not going to wait till like Beavis someone’s arbitrary ideal you know I can be in my body now and I think that was probably the biggest takeaway and that’s not to say that like I don’t have dark days sometimes we’re just like but nothing fits and clothes don’t lay right or just my body is it may be selling the way I’d like it to or pain or whatever but the more I work on this in the more I practice in the more I try to at least be accepting if not loving of my body is a whole then like those dark moments they they become easier to overcome and there’s kind of a shorter shorter up moments and time rather than just constantly spiraling so that’s probably my biggest takeaway cool so then I know it’s a very strict protocol for a lot of these boundaries and a lot of the accountability and the sort of mindset that you want to be approaching a client with do you want to talk a bit about those those boundaries for you keeping projections encounter projections and transference and all these sort of catchphrases of classical therapeutic modalities how how you how that was addressed and also the the Aftercare which is so I think neglected in a lot of just it’s just I feel after care is in across many different modalities it’s it’s neglected in an underemphasized so I’m curious to see how you all doing with that really on top of your game as as a sex illogical bodyworker you’ll call it out from the get-go on particular should know that you’ll have I think many multiple sessions with a client you might call it out and be like hey there might be a little bit of transference and know that this is because we’re in the space but on this is very much about you and your your processing and you’re learning so if I think I should really on your game you’ll just call it out I don’t think I’ve really seen a lot of that in my in my practice and also like I’m I I mean I explain like what what goes on in the boundaries of you know gloves and 1 way touch and bean clothes that’s like always out there and I always talk about consent I always have a consent exercise that is a little more in-depth like it for our first our first Hands-On session but I make sure to point out that yes even though we know you’re here to do this thing and we want to do Hands-On work together you are at twice the entire time I don’t want you to sit there and take it and if something’s I’m comfortable if for whatever reason you need to stop to find the language that works for you if it’s like get your hands off me or you know please can you remove your hands or if you know can you like press harder here or later there or whatever like I want that open communication and I do also do check-in look as we go and I I don’t want this early to be like constantly chattering on the table because then they’re not necessarily sinking in and focusing on what’s going on for them somatically so there’s a this fine balance of checking and seeing like how’s it going so far in like what’s going on for you and you thought or any modifications you might need but also like I really want them to check in on them breathing I want them to be focusing in as being as present as possible also don’t want them to like not being the space I was like Hey Oh I have to do what my laundry later for her it’s a lot of stuff so the way I build it is I will have like a chat before hand and make sure you check in on things you want to work on her different sorts of things we want to do or things a week near totally are off the table for that day and we do the session it’s not always Hands-On by the way like my my stuff is very flexible in that way and folks can also choose to be like fully undressed or or not I had arranged as well cuz I want to meet people where they’re at I don’t want them to come to me like oh wow I’m supposed to be fully nude relaxed okay like we can meet you where you are cuz I don’t want to like traumatize our reach home at has anyone again the whole thing of consent so we do that session and then we have time at the end part 1 is savoring so we let the person just kind of be their hands and I kind of like you know they are like my sweet like holding space for them to marinate for like 5 minutes or so without judgment and hopefully like maybe you think sinking in a different way then when hands are directly on them and then after that we know if we were undressed or whatever we going we chat for when I don’t see how that was how I’m like what what what they may have wanted more or less maybe like the headlight bulb moments you know throughout the about the process yeah so that’s kind of how how my sessions tend to go and it’s it’s kind of difficult to say like all I always do this for always do that I think because every person is different and everything they come to see me with might be different mainly it’s about like definitely like about breasts and and checking on your breathing because so often we don’t we don’t consciously breathe everybody knows I say that on my friend phone down and yeah just like this like practice of noticing also is is super interesting to me and like noticing and not necessarily having to do anything about if it’s like oh hey like what’s going on in your pinky toe okay it’s kind of goofy but it’s right on so then when a person has a session and they get sent on their merry way are there is there like a Aftercare list of things to be aware of family and you instruct them to take B have a journal so they can take notes if things come up if they want to remember afterwards or or any any kind of instructions like what you call it a discharge sheet or whatever they would do at a hospital or something I haven’t had that yet maybe I need to but I kind of just depends on the person maybe they just need more resources because maybe the work we did was fine but maybe they need something else I’m in addition to that so I would give them resources for example if they needed more like what do you call it more of a reciprocal touch or something maybe I prefer them to like a cuddle event because like I’m touching you but you’re just kind of being there and it might not it’s just not exactly the same sort of experience so of classes play we have so many so many resources that we shouldn’t take for granted or they might naturally gravitate towards that but I I I also sometimes they like homework lowercase age cuz I don’t want people to be like for those kind of things so I want people to connect in a way that works for them can ice I would say also that my practice even though I’ve been kind of at this for 4 years is still really new and I haven’t had enough of an experience really to like how to complete exact formula so I’m like super flexible I’m depending on on the person I always leave it open-ended of like you know please reach out to me if you have you no questions or like concerns your freaking out or I’ll try to be as supportive as I can I say that also with my students as well I don’t want people to think like a cool we did this thing for a few hours and now what but so if people take me up on it I’m totally there but I can do Yeah OK Google will another another question would be sweet I think you we touched upon earlier that you wouldn’t necessarily expect that a sex let’s go bodyworker would have a someone in the role not necessarily a nurse practitioner who is officially trained but someone who is there to just be a witness to hold space in a more kind of new-age sense or or receiving her practical sense of making sure there’s water making sure the temperature is you know you don’t have to get up and change the room temperature if the person’s not comfortable or something so is that something that is built into the program or not so much for something that you would hope that you would have eventually and it’s just not it’s cost-prohibitive or that would be super cool. Like teams of people but now it’s all just me and hopefully I don’t have to like get a lien on it with like coconut oil drenched hands or something like still with stuff I try my best in the Hands-On sort those scenarios to have everything within you know I like a quick trip around the table kind of walking distance you know and I think we’ve had to have like a blanket or like a sheet that’s long enough so that we can drape over if someone needs that I recommend wearing socks sometimes that helps with body temperature I mean I think most people are so sadly unfortunately embarrassed and ashamed about being just naked let alone naked and being stimulated so there’s so many barriers to being fully just relaxed and comfortable just being naked let alone like I said being to having everything and it’s been happening but I think in a perfect world it would be more conducive to I guess best medical practices in in in general looking at that model to have there be support staff who you if you have to press an emergency button they come running in you know or if you have to you know if there’s if there’s a Medicus I’ve seen things in the in my non-certified sexological Bodywork practice that can sometimes make you want to push a panic button of some kind so that’s I guess the question would be what if someone said hey can I you know you can even recommend but we’re just explore this save this this notion that if if there were more money if there were more money in the practice or let’s say in your bank account then you could hire staff as part of your practice or you can say something like if you have a trusted friend who you could bring or a partner or somebody who can be there and sign a release form or some some sort of paperwork that you know gives them a bit of an orientation but then they could be the emergent like the live emergency contact in the session with them I mean that seems like maybe a perfect world scenario and like it’s hard because most people they don’t want anyone else to see what they’re about to go through they don’t know what it’s going to be like 2 so there’s that too so just thoughts on on these because we are sometimes we don’t even like if it’s a partner person they might not even the partner may not even know that they’re coming to see me which is the whole sandwich like you know I can’t I don’t want to judge but also it’s like I like and also like that that’s not quite related but this time John told that like if you can’t if your partner in your coming to see me and you can’t really talked about the fact that you’re coming to see me and then suggestions I give you my dear Aliyah till I bringing this up with your partner and they can’t sell seems like I so limited like how I can help you if you can’t no breach that like that divides like I can’t unless I’m going to come home with you and Mike have an intervention and I think people are going to do but I think it would be kind of cool to be able to have like I don’t know even like a like a resource or something where I could be like hey if you’re having this reaction that I could you know I don’t know call in the sex positive whatever EMT I don’t know that is not a thing that any of his every need guy so I don’t really have a good answer for that yeah I was just curious if you if you have fuel that paying you know that that it would be in a perfect world it wouldn’t be so taboo it wouldn’t be so we wouldn’t be so legally limited and so financially limited to do what feels right and I’ll be nice as much as hey why this is important work how do you do it right well you know you really are serious let me let me list everything that could be optimized about it because I think the time will come when people look up to people such as yourself and they want to change the policy and change the you know everything from the laws to the health insurance programs and and all of that and diversion program certainly for perpetrators to get this work done and other types of sexual healing modalities there a lot of victims of trauma and abuse and misuse it’s important to include people who just have never had orgasm especially women during sex or no said I would consider that not necessarily directly a form of abuse that cause that and in all cases but really miss you soooo is another term that kind of expands the the range of what people are dysfunctional sexually about are the causes of it so I just wanted to put that in the sidebar but the question I have is it for the inquiry here is that a lot of this work is being done for victims of abuse and misuse and I don’t know if yet there is a a real massive campaign to Market this work for perpetrators to get treatment and I don’t know if the let me know would like to see a world where people who are doing this work or so disgusted and fed up by the Mount of sexual violation that’s happening in the caseloads that we all have that we actually want to go after the root source and it end and deal with the predators in the perpetrators of all kinds and so proactively Market to them and Market to the criminal psychiatrist in Market to the Social Service nonprofits that are working to rehabilitate and all of those even the even the that the the religious what do you call in The Minister’s that work in the prison so you know I mean it it’s there so many different people who are trying to address the issue of Rehabilitation perpetrators and they don’t even know this kind of work exists I have no idea about it so there’s that potential for people in the field to 22 / actively seek clients you know in that sense as a business strategy of all things if not just out of the compassion for their victims that they work on it is also the potential of there being political pressure to say you don’t get to go back into the general population as a citizen as a sex offender unless you have gone through this type of purging and this is the closest form of a medical sexual sort of exorcism if you will that currently exist and everything else is way out there on the fringes so this could be a real powerful piece and so I’m just wondering now you know having laid out that you know this this sort of this inquiry if have yourself worked on anyone who would self-identify as having harmful parafilias or being a sex offender if whatever kind and if if so with what you have to say about that and if not if you know any colleagues and have that cuz I think that’s really where the research should be done you know so we can go after the root of the problem and not just be you know putting Band-Aids on it one person at a time so that’s my PSA right there if I have I’ve nuts never been something that was disclosed to me by a client so that’d be difficult to stay I do think that this is a valuable segment of where some of this work could go and definitely more needs to be looked into seeing how we could reframe this in a more yeah more of a rehabilitation sort of sort of a context I’m also not familiar with people who are doing this work and not particularly not in looks like a logical Bodywork although that definitely sounds like a valuable thing something in like a corner of my mind that I can’t fully recall is maybe there’s a little bit of research on it and I want to say a friend and colleague of mine doctor DJ WIlliams who is a research director at the center for positive sexuality where I’m a board member and educator has done a bit of a little bit of research at least around totally going to ruin this around like Galaxy Prime something to do with like sexual crimes or something like that I’m not I’m going to try because I’ll totally mess it up but yeah I would definitely encourage folks to look into the Journal of positive sexuality where there’s original research being done around that and that way you can find DJ and his work he’s also an amazing researcher and general I am definitely a little bit out of the loop when it comes to this particular segment of of the broader like sexual healing umbrella but definitely I’d be open to learning more cool thank you for that yeah I’m here just looking for whatever leads and support and yeah broadening the discourse as much as I can and so did for me this this whole podcasts is a ongoing research project so I really value and appreciate everything that you’re sharing and your willingness to open up about these things in it sounds like you’re having a blast and having fun and you’re not but do you have what would be some advice that you have as a practitioner to avoid burnout in to do self-care into just make sure that you’re doing your own spiritual energetic hygiene so that you you can continue to be blasting through this stuff and I’m not sure that I have the answer to that cuz I definitely had been feeling a little bit of burnout particularly we didn’t talk about it but that’s totally fine around like the blogging stuff and like sex for a year if you make them just like I don’t want cuz just bodies and thinking critically about things sometimes I’d rather not but definitely like even acknowledging that you know what we might be sometimes the face of these you know how edgy you know sexuality is this like a g thing and we’re supposed to know this word expert actually really gets under my skin I don’t claim to be an expert cuz like I barely know myself I don’t want to claim to know about other people but I would hope that we could recognize that it’s okay to want to not do this for a little while in like that’s why it’s important to have like other interests and hobbies whatever those are and and not necessarily neglect those along the way you know whether it’s like you know going to the theater or getting your manicure pedicure sort of thing or taking a yoga classes are you no cooking or anything like that it’s important to to stay connected to those other things and you know we also so much in the social media world where everything you know we don’t really take photographs or posts things about the difficult the difficult nest and the rough patches and how tired or how much energy your how much work we know we have or don’t have that goes into the other side of the best of everyone just like happy smiling and body face or whatever is lovely more of that but also there are two sides at least two sides probably way more to all of this is that you know yet is a struggle and it is difficult and I mean just for people in this feel that goes really anything which is you know we get so surrounded by these like you know Stepford Wives clink robot you know everything so happy and perky for a lot of people the world is falling apart and sometimes literally so it’s okay to take a breath and take take a break from social media that something I have not yet done as a millennial true to my you know Millennial nature I need to like be tapped in all the time but yeah I think it’s important it’s like take a step back and like look into the other interests you have in your life and not just be like constantly trying to kill ourselves fruit for this so this is all the things that the industrial capitalist imagine that we would be doing with these well with was with however many more than 40 hours a work week it was when there was no child labor laws and when there is no weekend and when it says they had enriching in it sometimes that you know exhilarating it’s very energy-intensive and so these things and other people’s process and it’s it’s a lot and then you have to go and go with your own like whatever you’re going through possibly it’s just it’s so much and practically because Quality Inn Lake Buena conversations around sexuality and gender and everything are at least at least for me I don’t know it’s like I feel like I’m constantly surrounded by this in one way or another that like I can’t I almost can’t let go down the street and like there’s a billboard that I’m just like a rolling my eyes are you know just like why would you choose to do this and this way again who are the people that you’re not targeting we’re having this thing aren’t you know what how how is this Frame do you know Marketing in like what does it say about ideal bodies are ideal sexuality is very stinky and all that is just it’s just marketing and all bodies are amazing and you know just be where you’re at it makes me just realized we live in a trauma soup you know you can’t open your eyelids you can’t wake up and not be traumatized by million things in one day if you’re having to make a living in this world and you don’t have the the freedom and luxury and privilege to go meditate in the caves in the Himalayas do you know you no longer treats and stuff so yeah we certainly salute you in the work that you’re doing and the leadership that you’re you’re taking on and I really appreciate that we’ve gotten to explore some of these issues and feel like this just opens the door for more people who want to step up and you know you could have interns interns could be the ones who come in and don’t ask for money in her willing to just be apprentices and they could do things like change the temperature in the room for you or for the client and so interns you know get on board let’s do this it’s it’s it’s a worthy cause your website and talk about to again just what you have to offer and how people can connect in any any final closing words that you like to share Vixen. V i x e n n e.com I am at Doctor Vixen on pretty much most of social media I’m happy happy to you know how potential clients I don’t sell take everyone but I’m open to at least find enough people reach out to me and I can refer people out is if it’s not too good to say I’m totally okay with doing that for a sex logical Body Works like one-on-one stuff if you want other I’d rather talk about together but like I have done on classes on squirting no demo so it’s not super edgy but Turnigy which is fine and the focus is not so much on gender but about bodies and how how that can happen I also have I will have planned will plan circles in Los Angeles I’m also bringing a little mini series up to Sacramento again at the end of June so Sacramento peeps get in touch no I’m just happy to connect with folks find me on social media and you know I take pictures of my lattes true and any words I guess maybe people who were inspired by what you’re saying and want to get involved you recommend that they save up and and get him or with the trainings that you did and how would you know or donate to different organizations or just you know believes your tax burden we do Outreach education education and we have a research we have our I think it’s now on our third volume of are peer-reviewed real access journal the journal positive sexuality so we definitely we reach people both locally and globally so it’s just it’s so amazing I love the work that we do what else can I would definitely suggest the people at least look into the psychological Body Work Association cuz I mean I’m just in La I know that there are other workers here but they are all over the world their training is all over the world and then also legalities will vary depending on location so I mean the training a super super valuable even if you plan on never using it in your practice like if you just want to know if you are talk therapist and you know there’s all that those boundary things that you have to be mindful of it could be super valuable to just take it not for the certification but just to add your toolbox yeah so yeah that would be really helpful I think also will thank you so much for your time and just have a wonderful day and we’ll definitely be in touch podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is sustaining and improving the podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been at our trip songs. 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