In this episode I have the great honor of speaking with my divine feminine spirituality mentor, healer and dear friend Sufiana. She holds space for me to summarize over two years worth of psychedelic shamanic research that began with the meeting of our souls in a sacred dance.
It was she who initiated me into the might, magic, and mystery of Goddess Kali. Together we explore the ancient lore and modern science that are converging to bring the Goddess back into psychotherapeutic effect.
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin hello dear beloved’s welcome to Township Punk podcast episode number 35 I’m here with Sue Fionna and we’re going to talk about the science of goddess invocation we’re going to be looking at how these ancient tantric Hindu archetypes of the goddess can be translated and understood in a modern context using modern language for Psychotherapy and somatic healing and in all these new sort of modalities that are being scientifically studied and recognized and so there’s this intersection of the esoteric and the scientific and we’re going to explore that and discuss some of our mutual discoveries and I’ll say that where was the first important effect that I observed actually goes back to the first night that we had begun to communicate and sort of from share a vision of bringing more divine feminine energy on to the Earth plane through through dancing together we kind of set that attention in the very beginning and then literally that first night that we made that intention I went into my normal Friday night mushroom psytrance dancing ritual and began to have a massive download and start to channel visions of a future where a very Fierce powerful goddess energy will be guiding me and possibly Sufjan are you know us together collaborating to be able to bring in this righteous rage and I had just seen a video of her inviting Kali through a dance and I didn’t have any real understanding of the the Hindu goddess Kali archetypal when I read about it and I was very intrigued and and then it was like from that moment she began to enter my my life and in that the first night of dancing I was not only feeling this and seeing this for the first time this sort of Astral texture of her body and this very well well established depiction of a sort of array of kaleidoscopic eyes and if the very wrathful facial expressions in this sort of time continuum of a feminine a beautiful feminine Continuum of phone of Flesh and teeth and things in ferocity to sort of higher dimensional living massive organism and that was when I first started to see in the mushroom state from the third eye perspective this force of nature this feminine Divine force of Nature and towards the end of that first dance after I had felt this new rage righteous rage energy come in was Exquisite and beautiful I began to actually have a perception of a far more terrifying or terrible form that was very much not humanoid in very much sort of insectoid and I was I had to avert my third eye I had to change the channel and and snap out of it and in in in sort of a void that the invitation to go deeper into into that that experience and then later I found out after reading the Bible Gita that do you know when the conversation with with Krishna and Arjuna there’s this point where Arjuna is shown the Divine true interdimensional body or true form of of the Divine entity and it’s so terrifying has to end over his eyes and ask him and beg him to return to his humanoid form and when I discovered that in the end of the scriptures that was like okay that’s exactly what I experienced there is this extra-dimensional non-human Divine beings entities that that we’re being you know describing a similar way so that was a ridge that was my first encounter with the goddess Kali before even meeting Sufjan In the Flesh and then after meeting the first time we you know discuss their kind of Life paths and and our our Journeys if a feeling and what not and then we had said the intention to then get together and do a bit of dancing because I had asked you know hey would you train me and teach me some of this some sacred dance you know it would really help me in my journey in so we rented a Little Rock Band Rehearsal studio for an hour and I plugged in my MP3 player and played some some sensual and in a powerful psychedelic trance music in and then something very frightening and beautiful occurred which is that Sufjan of began to just get into her beautiful traditional dance State and I was doing a kind of country textbook kind of pranic healing intuitive Oreck sweeping around the the female is form of prayer and devotion and worship to encircle the female and in the center and and slowly close the gap and go from a sweeping of the aura to a gentle sweet thing of the of the surface of the skin to a powerful and Brace and as as their process began to occur we create this funnel Vortex Whirlwind of Prana and then I don’t know if you want if you remember this exact moment but I remember it like like like seeing a burning bush but you at that moment snapped into the Kali invocation deity possession transtate tongue rolling out porosity of expression and a sort of wave a discharge of this wrathful energy so do you recall that and had that ever happened before to you anything like that I I have to say that it was a very different experience from my earlier ones though being from Indian culture and having danced like Carly in some of my performances I did I did have a few minor visitations kind of that kind of experience but that was particular Dance Experience was it was something beyond that for sure and then of course the next experience we had together with the the journey which will soon be talking about was oh my goodness. It was like a million x million steps forward from from this Dance Experience but it was a beautiful moment it is so hard to put something like that in the word that is why I am at lost in some ways it is something that you really have to experience it but I I was I had not taken any kind of drugs but I was constantly for that one or two hours I was just having visions and colors and light and all these designs for me in front of my eyes my eyes were closed of course and I was supposed to test by the movement and I was possessed by the divine feminine yeah it’s the validation and so is that moment I was astounded and struck and I immediately that shifted my life forever because I is it as a sort of from you call it a pseudo-scientists there were an armchair scientist or amateur but someone who is a big fan of the movie and read the book Altered States which is all about the scientific study of the intersection between physiology and phenomenology in other words what you experience is one narrative to talk about and what is measurable on the physical plane in the body’s physiology you know if you say you see a ghost you know there is Ghost Hunters are trying to look for the physical evidence of such things in if you say you saw it that’s really subjective thing that certain aspects we measured but in that film Altered States you can get a lot of America s that set me a motion to understand why mystical experiences are of such interest to psychedelic scientists because that’s where we can actually gather data and start to prove the existence of God or prove the existence of goddess and therefore shift the soulless like dead Paradigm of the Scientific Revolution and his you know been responsible for so much disaster we need to bring sacredness back into life on Earth so without going into a polemic only move quickly on to the next is significant event which is that you know I began from that moment realizing that there was this powerful healing force of nature that was coming into my life for a reason and that I had to respect it and study it and be open to you know the next steps and so on we started to plan some shamanic work together and and in collaborate and you know designing some some ritual procedure and Sacred Space for going further in bringing in the psilocybin mushroom the sacred mushroom into you know into a goddess invocation event and so we actually did a dry run first without the medicine and and I was experiencing powerful effects you were using if you remember you kind of walk me through a kind of more let’s say it’s not traditional but a more kind of textbook cycle therapeutic modality of anchoring inner child in the spirit animal and going into the forest and then opening up of a portal below the roots of the tree for the dark armies to be flushed down and that was a very like kind of NLP neuro-linguistic programming based approach or you know something based on your your studies at the California Institute of integral studies or that at school there so if you have any thoughts or memories about that you were doing kind of massage and chakra work guiding me through that was our first time 9 psychedelic dry run of giving you the Spiritual Authority to do healing work in to cast demons out of my field you know if you remember that the experience I remember the one with the journey are you talking about the one very word Journey on the mushrooms yeah I was starting to break down and cry you wasn’t that it wasn’t that memorable you know what I mean to me it was a course but that was if you don’t recall much about is fine cuz it wasn’t it wasn’t it was just like a Prelude to where I can start to feel yeah there’s we’re opening up this astral body and doing some some deep tissue work in the astral body but that was before we do the mushrooms to it so that was a sort of dry run it happen and then in between that dry run and our scheduled full on full heroic dose mushrooms journey I was assembling the soundtrack for this journey because I knew or had you know we had discovered that okay there’s something about the Psychedelic trance feet and a psychedelic trance the way that it the frequencies and a lot of you know tuned to actual sacred frequency is a lot of the tracks have especially to go a genre has sacred Melodies and and really they’re like you know they’re they’re able to unlock different energies in the astral plane these frequencies and his Beats and obviously they get you add realized so they’re preparing you for a spiritual battle to to retrieve your own soul that’s what people are doing on the dance floor is shedding demons and retrieving fragments of their soul and becoming whole again through the sacred ecstatic trance dance at a universal phenomenon and even you know it’s documented by stanza by stanza stand graph stands fully that Congress and African foraging people’s activate Kundalini through their own ritual ecstatic trance dance and it’s there you know similar therapeutic use of Kundalini Shakti but in their terms have different words for it but we’re talking about forces of nature and activating them through dance so you know who it was I took it upon myself to spirit of God choose a selection of tracks that would be most adrenal icing for the for the ritual and one of them was the suspects spotted Track by Mad Max and that track I had been journeying on my own and listen to that track and I was given a powerful vision of how this is like the the the flute with the melody to charm collie and her terrible beautiful hyperdimensional Predator form in in in an indication that could invite her into actually do the Demonic devourment in a very Astros ecological Manor in the hole that all these words and not sending dance with the simple way to look at it is it in in the astral plane there is an ecosystem just as As Above So Below there’s an ecosystem and the deities aren’t just cartoon archetypes they have functional roles medical assistant so the analogy would be that if you are suffering from mental or physical illness it is because you know like a leaf of a spinach plant is suffering because there are aphids eating and devouring it in so if you were an aphid that had a spiritual technology to call forth the ladybug that ladybug would be something you would worship and devote yourself to because a ladybug will be devouring the aphids and liberating you and providing you with the ability to heal yourself so I was given that Vision not as a sort of you know what would you call it and it wasn’t a symbolic Vision I actually saw the true biological hyperdimensional beneficial predator entity that Hindu Tantra sex ancient psychedelic you know tantrix were were talking about in an inward decoding or including the experience in the scriptures in the contras the tantris are the scriptures of Devotion to Kali and you know that’s something I got deeper into studying later but in that moment myself dancing I was filled with joy and I Had A Smile as big as ramakrishna because I knew that this is what the power in with the fur for a fursuit Fiona to be vamping out in a possession state in a bistro possession state with a war face of a mother raccoon ready to pounce that is the cat is the intersection of the the astral power of the goddess and when the devotee acts actively engage is that energy and in permits her to enter then we get into we’ll talk about a minute which is more medically measurable effects but long story short I had that Vision or that experience that phenomenological experience and then I I was so excited about it and when I found you Sufjan it like a few days later to tell you I was like overjoyed and acting like a freak dancing around in circles at outside of your place in Santa Monica and I made the mistake of of like it is an American in a friendly manner like putting my arm around you and you were like not used to having affection in public so it’s kind of a disaster but but I was excited and that was that was they took that excitement into you know what what what we did together which was we brought in the mushroom in and we played those tracks and then all hell broke loose all Heaven broke loose and we experience something that I already put in previous podcast you know our recording where we were both sort of like 10 turned white is still in the DAT possession transtate and we’re still channeling the the I would call them the Commandments of Yoni worship and all of that is already documented in some of the earlier podcast I’m not going to give mine are too about that we already did that but you now in this moment looking back I’m curious you know how would you describe what it felt like when you in that mushroom ceremony were able to fully embody the goddess and perform a shamanic form of exorcism you know what are your what are your thoughts now to add to what we already had recorded about this couple years ago well in that moment I have to say that it says like the most natural thing to do it felt so effortless to be my most empowered self but the power was the power was intense and it was so beautiful at the same time it wasn’t something that could possibly come from your arrogance or egotism in fact if you were trying to come from that place seeking power then you pretty much be sliced off by her sword by Kali sword that’s how I felt so there was that Modest part of me that was also coming from the ego the voice that oh you know maybe you know this is I don’t know if if if this power is coming from the eagle or if this power is you know can be arrogance because we are so used used to this polluted a form of power that is rampant around in the world that when pure power comes and possesses you it’s hard to trust it immediately but it felt so effortless it felt so natural and it felt like it was always there this is who I always was and always will be I was always Carly and I always will be curly how can I not be her and this is not just about me this is this is not about sufiyana this is not about me at all she is there within all of us and why do we forget to embody her that is the biggest question there was a mirror in front of me and I looked at myself and I told myself sufiyana tomorrow when this journey is over I have a feeling that you would want to go back into your old patterns and forget who you truly are you’re going to want to forget your soul don’t do that remember this moment always remember this moment and I remember that in the beginning we had maybe some kind of you know we started with some meditative music and then we did grounding centering and all that then we started dropping in with some trance music but we went to the deepest darkest Parts you know and do the most Divine parts that yearning with a fierce collie happened to this beautiful music which maybe Ben will share with you all that was a chant to goddess Durga and the Montreal goes like this adversity end at some point I remember that the computer that was not a single link that was open but the song was just playing we were playing it initially on YouTube and it was I don’t know it was like magic it was just playing I don’t know where how it was playing but I put later on I put the song on repeat mode and we just went deeper and deeper and deeper with it and yeah it was very Fierce moments very very very Fierce moments all the anger that the feminine is the feminine within all of us with her regardless whether you are a man or a woman that the feminine within us is holding in her unconscious the anger that comes from years and years of patriarchy misogyny and all the ill effects and the suffering and the pain it’s causing all of the children men women I’ve met women that can be patriarchal in misogynist and there can be men also so I’m this is not about men or women I’m not stalking against men here I’m talking against patriarchy and misogyny and we just know that it’s important so we do this and and so like I’ve been doing this constantly one of my goals that I set out of certain point was that at least you know once a year there would be a community gathering around love sex intelligence and the rest of the time you know we haven’t online for him but very important for that hole project has been and which we’ve stepped it up in the recent months to make sure that hopefully like every month we can do something is to to say that the community around learning about how to how to harmonise our relationships how to defend our sexuality into something that is you know how uplifting our spiritual path is something that needs to be done you know with with with more support and so that’s why it’s it can’t just functioning online capacity so that’s something I’ve committed to we have we have been actually our next events is focusing squarely on sexual initiation I’m pink resented by someone named y’all Lila Espinosa is looking at how to tweeze mower practices that she learned in Peru you know have informed her own healing and and then creating her own initiation but yeah I also you know as an astrologer I work with people and often it is around relating I’ve done a little bit of like you know support for people I think what happens is you know when when you become a central figure in any given Community people will come to you when they’re in crisis and this is what has informed my my the work that I do around you know Rites of Passage is responding to crisis from a place that seeks to get to the root of what is causing the crisis which in so many cases is that there is a lack of of support and people therefore will resort to self initiation just something I’ve had to do in my own life and and see it so much the case for some of the other people and there’s another psychological shifts that occur when people an emotional shift that occur when people feel a sense that they’re being held that they are being that they can fit they can let go and have a safe space to go into those wounds and begin working on them and of course it would help if we had a little more guidance and how to do that but thought comes over over time you know we have to work from where we’re at and so that’s something that I’ve been in in the my own process of of my own work around here figuring what those things are with those tools are and Tom yeah like I said I’m not an expert but I can at least Point people in some directions I guess what we’re looking at here is that there’s an underground space very intentional underground space that is more conducive to kind of freestyling or rolling your own ceremony and just holding the light and and letting those who it call who are called to it you know it would become integrated into keep it at the gala Therrien and flowing so that you don’t have cult of personality and politics and all of the scenester Hipster things coming in and that’s always up in it and he has to be on guard against and whatnot so I see there’s that unfoldment in that development and then there’s people who are also working like stay in the social work field who are informing their peers and colleagues in those sectors with these Neo shamanic techniques or nonviolent communication or your where it’s legal and accessible and permissible you know legally again to be able to put people on amor I guess like prisons prison you Lila has a very and I’ve done some I interviewed her in the past and I’m a big fan of what she’s doing and I know she has a strong background in clinical social work and is feeding back into that sector the wisdom of of the Amazon and and Beyond and so is that something that you have I just thought I remember reading somewhere you know or talk to you at some point about how this is this is like you could be hired by the more formal above ground and sectors of social work or Community work with where you can be brought in to bring some of the stuff that would normally be or I guess it’s just that it’s a very interesting Cutting Edge of an intersection and I if I’m not mistaken that’s that you you are like sort of partially in that world 2 of of social work or is that something I understand correctly yeah I’ll I will string this conversation back and see where where I where I am placed social work as well as all the modalities of counseling and healing you know like they are all part and parcel to supporting and upholding status quo capitalist system so I’m going to like you know like you know also haven’t been in the punk scene also had a big enough impact on my my party now 13 m in terms of healing these wounds we have to look at that and I we can’t we can’t say like that are healing is going to be independent of the world that is reeling and suffering from the continuation of this system as it is and so that’s where for me like bringing capitalism into the equation is is something that’s real tricky it’s something that I feel needs to be kind of understood. You know we we can’t just rely on having sting services that we can pay for because that creates a gap you know where some people are going to have accessible abilities to to the healing and others won’t and that’s that’s not healthy for anyone and and also that it doesn’t address the root cause of why we need social workers to begin with and why we need counseling and all of that so I really like the notion of cultural healing that’s where more where I would be comfortable in any way kind of looking at myself as any kind of healer I don’t think we we can really heal individuals that’s really something that you know a person will need to and it’s not like they can be facilitated to do their own healing work but nobody can fix us we have to fix ourselves that’s that’s more I think a more powerful Paradigm to be apart of but you know I I I have worked in the realm of I focused therapy and you know I have spent quite a bit of time around the spirit plant medicines and seeing how the plant medicines have assisted and I do I do continue continuously work to increase my knowledge and wisdom around working with us plants and and that also brings us back into that hole realm of discussion around you know ancestors and working with them or perhaps that’s something we haven’t really touched upon but maybe she said it’s just that in any form of healing that we do I guess for me the important thing that I really try to bring into whatever I do connecting back with her ancestors and healing the trauma of how we were disconnected from those ancestors and how that plays out in any kind of sexual wounds or emotional wounds that we carry and so that’s something that I I I feel like the role of initiation and ritual can can really do and that’s that’s been its Province ever since people began doing patrols I think it’s to build upon the legacy of their ancestors and to draw and their their help and support cool said that yeah thank you for helping me understand the other parameters a little better and and 100% there with you I have I have been because I live in the United States where there’s different laws around no prostitution in in how that affects the healing with sexual touch and pleasure as medicine and stuff like that is a lot more yes I understand in in Canada there’s there’s a lot more interesting legal space in order to do Hands-On Sexual Healing work relative to the US where it’s completely off limits in so I because of that adapting to that reality and also is a permaculture designer myself I have to think very deeply about how to navigate this issue of for-profit healing work that kind of in most sectors is about like you said I’ll put in my own words it’s like they want to know if if the if you’re at a time of time robot that supposed to be producing a set amount to be a productive member of the of the GDP then then if you’re not functioning properly than the the goal of the mainstream social work or psychotherapeutic or psychiatric Fields they’re trying to get you back into the rat race as soon as possible and they’ll do that with drugs with talk therapy or whatever that is about avoiding through tissue which is the disconnection from urethane from a healthy holistic wild habitat you know a night as a primitivist I see that you know the solution to your Neurosis is to retry belies and Get Growing your own food again in and rebuild that fabric so you know there with you on that tension about right livelihood in and taking money for healing and what is he doing so I really like what you said and that just is going to it’s going to help me a lot looking at healing the cultural level and healing the if I’m understanding right and I’ll put a couple my own words on it but I feel like we’re trying to build the scaffolding or were trying to design the context for people to take the responsibility of a personal healing and gone to that journey and so if you if what would you say are some practical skills are tools from all of your things that you would teaching and training and a things that you discovered in your own journey to where you’re in power tools for empowerment that you suggest or are resources that you suggest people Explorer to if they’re called to do the cultural healing work weather for profit or non-profit. Some dance between the two or it and then what what are some recommendations for people who are on their own path and aren’t necessarily called to do the the cultural healing yeah I mean it’s it’s a pretty vast subject that one but I think that a few points that I could think about and talk about our that I’m going to this idea of bringing you back in the station rights and recognizing that in the absence of them what do we have you know we are we are sadly in there without initiated Elders so many of us and if there are any of Elders that hold that ability to to guide those those ones are those are worth their weight in gold you know there really is people that we should try to lift up and and give them their recognition and see you know and then in the absence of that it’s like we kind of by default Our Generations people that will have to hopefully fulfill that and reach a place where we can actually help upcoming generations to go in a way that they don’t have to completely go it alone and and figure it out on them on their own the way that so many of us have had to and so there is a movement around Rites of Passage I sit on the board if you passageways which is a network that focus is squarely on you no Rites of Passage for you coming of age from all different walks and and and modalities you know some of them are our Boys to Men oriented some of them are girls to women some of them are starting to incorporate non gender binary kind of approaches as well which is good and and this whole focus on bringing back the ancestors into looking at Rites of Passage is is starting to happen and something that I focused on and so that’s that’s a resource you know people can go to youth passageways. Oregon and look at what programs are out there and they can also think about how they can add to that list and bring in things that are needed around especially around sexuality and relationship which is often I noticed kind of a big gap in a lot of programs out there you know because they’re confined confined or constrained by the conservative values where they take place and you know what school system is you know this is one of those places lagging for that kind of thing so it’s a role that I think that many people who understand the need can step into and cultivate as career paths you know and some people are pig figuring out how they can weave their credentials says on Sexual Health Educators or sexual therapist or sexual trauma or no trauma-based therapists you know into this realm of initiation and that’s that needs to happen on a on an increased level the other I see a lot of because of what I was saying around looks really don’t how many Avenues to learn other than through you know what the books in the workshops and offerings around sexuality thoughts unfortunately are not rooted in in people’s only need two lineages generally speaking you know so the whole Tantra movement is pretty much so you know a cultural appropriator of New Age fight version of those Traditions that would have been squashed by Christianity especially and so I think there’s work to be done there and as much as possible Retreat retrieving reconstructing are reconnecting with our own ancestral Traditions which I’m sure you know had their own knowledge wisdom around how to how to raise healthy harmonious individuals with healthy sexualities from from the vantage point of how what little I do know has been has been done in indigenous cultures and without wanting to appropriate for them from them I’ll just give way of examples out of that you know in and certain cultures that are studied like the Mayan culture and I think to some degree on certain places within Creek culture there’s examples of how as societies you know that the children are raised from an early age 2 reach a point where they understand how to how to harmonize with the other sex and how to to look after each other and that’s just a very basic principle that I feel like you know that’s that’s worth kind of learning how to integrate into our family structures if we have children that were raising just to keep in mind that you know there is a need for them to learn skills around things like consent and around being responsible with with one’s sexual energies and and I needs to start before they reach that age of adolescence where they’re just harder to connect with if you haven’t built up that Foundation so that’s something that I think about will do you so if I if if we check out that the organization that you mention is it would that be good place to find and something like a more enlightened or more conscious like sexual education curriculum or guidebook do you know if people were working on something like that so if I know if you know parents who were going through the puberty of their child that they have something that’s not just this cold clinical Western and even though that sort of evolving a little bit you know with things like a sack didn’t and whatnot I see a lot but the The ancestral wisdom and you know the ceremonial Rites of Passage you know how does it how does the Modern Family say okay well you’re about to start feeling you know hormonal Energy’s how do we give you know create even if it’s just within their family or their Community yoga or whatever is something more than what’s being offered in the normal sex ed or what they’re listening in gangster rap music and watching on sitcoms obviously you know it’s enough for lack of lot of alternative options it’s one one place to look and we’re always looking for others so whenever we discover something then we will see to auditory resources and we are trying to vet those resources and those organizations to make sure that they really are you know at least there’s some some level of you know safe recommendation that we can give for those those organizations we’re not we’re not in the position to really kind of completely you know set standards but we are trying to we have a code of what we call it a cross-cultural protocol so we do look at that aspect that you have for what we’re talking about that’s you know if that’s another layer that we will hopefully get to eventually and I do know that there are people within our Network who are really strongly focused on this particularly around girls to women kind of education and and Rites of Passage and some of the Boys to Men once but I think it’s also something we need to to enhance as well oh that’s great yeah that’s that’s that’s what I wanted to hear so that I can just refer people to this ongoing and so and then the LSI is kind of its there’s a Facebook I’ve been interacting with the the Facebook group for a while so is that something you recommend people plug-in I mean that’s the goal of that is to feature blogs and generate discussions from those blogs and also to establish a resource of services as well as information and so that’s you know running on in a very limited volunteer capacity and so you know it’s something that I hope will eventually become a very powerful resource but already it’s you know it’s been feedback that I’ve received that you know even just the the group that we have on Facebook somebody posted recently. You know it’s really help them in their in their path which is nice to hear and I’ve heard that a few times and I try to curate that group in such a way where it’s like you know it’s trying to generate discussion and it’s it’s trying to be a safe space where where people can get into some of those I’m intimate revealing is of what what’s going on in their lives one of the things that kind of came out of love sex intelligence local as a connection with Tamara and the love school that they have which is a very congruence philosophy to love sex intelligence and they’re their work to try to create or with to create safe spaces for people to to share stories of what’s going on in their intimate lover sexual lives and and B witnessed in a way that is non-judgemental where they’re not being flooded with advice but more just being witnessed which is kind of connected to that whole framework for Rites of Passage itm witnessing each other and so it’s it’s trying to also look at how you know communities can succeed in their in their goals which might include you know like being more sustainable or being an alternative to the systems around us and also being a part of a more peaceful kind of culture through filling this hole that is often where things go wrong where people are are are not feeling safe to talk about these these human experiences around wounding around are our hearts and our sexuality so I’ve been part of a Practice Group here that has been circulating also to other parts of BC and I think it’s a really it’s a really powerful movement to be a part of yeah we’re getting close to an hour or so I have to take a few more minutes and I’m get a couple thoughts and feelings some responsible for 1 something that his is coming up for me that I think it’s really empowering is this like idea that wouldn’t it be nice if some of us started to think of ourselves as aspiring Elders I’ve never thought of it that way until this conversation and there’s a little spark of joy and me that that says you know puts in context the the punk rock lifestyle that I had of live fast Die Young and just you know if it’s not throwing yourself into the meat grinder of insurrectionary activism you know with this sort of Death Wish you know this martyr complex or whatever it’s like those are really unsustainable archetypes to follow and they leave a lot of people when they get to my age in about 35 like in a sort of existential crisis that will the revolution didn’t happen and I didn’t get killed I didn’t die in the gutter you know I mean what am I going to do now and it’s like well maybe it’s time to become an aspiring Elder and you know clean up your act and and then start to think about how you’re going to make it easier cuz I there’s a lot of things that I had to go through that I would seriously love to have no one else ever have to go through and if you know if we can live in that. you know that is what you’re supposed to think that I think of you say you know you can you can learn from the wisdom of Elders who have gone through and made the mistakes that you’re probably going to go through or you can just be hard-headed and learn all your lessons the hard way but I mean we’ve had to learn a lot of hard lessons in the absence of the eldership but I think if we take on that there’s a yeah me too. It seems obvious but really the way you put it his medicine for me to think you know it’s a dignified path to be an aspiring Elder and then it makes you not be so how do I can help you defeat that that that grinding pressure that oh my I’m going to lose my looks and I’m going to lose my energy and I’m going to be in the state of deprecation towards death and that’s very much the greatest fear of the western manicured Uno photoshopped airbrushed identity like you’re not really giving any hope that aging will be of any benefit in here just marginalized further and further so I thank you for that serve very much still give that time sacred eldership dignity not a light title to hold I think the true Elder wouldn’t really feel comfortable in it cuz it’s defining attributes of an elder that is really one that can help that role be the best it can be is one that is is really accountable is really present isn’t so on the move that if you can’t you know be relied upon to be there for the people that it serves now needs to ideally be in the in the fellowship of other Elders to kind of keep it in in in check in a way like we have to watch for the Cole group kind of phenomenon where people you know place a lot of weight on that person and in a way that can privilege them in certain ways and also lead to potential like power distortions and things like that you know it’s it’s only human that people will make mistakes and so having that kind of accountability of other people and also that time yeah you have people heart or a different there’s always like in every phase of life with the lifecycle there’s there’s like the maturing phases and so there’s like you know there’s a baby elder there’s enough adult Elder and then Senior Elder and so it’s just we have to learn at each stage of Life how to become the mature version of what that stage is and says just something to think about as well and it’s good to to get your feet wet early on in life so that you know we can have deep roots and and the and those are the kinds of people to like in the Tamara situation out of the black community they have a circle of Elders who are basically people who have grown with a community enough that they know the people in their community and then they serve a role as potential kind of like the Matchmaker but you know in a way where people can approach them in and ask them like you know I’m interested in this person and they can help you assess whether this is the right time or what is a good or bad idea and you know they can kind of that. Whole courtship in a way that you know really I think I wish there were more of those people around here don’t you let me relax you know learn the hard way what does that we’re just not compatible certain people in The Matrix the I mean yeah I’m not I’m not a political scientist of the Matrix but I will say that what got me peaked on the ecstatic trance dance group ritual ceremony festival thing was it really when I saw I think it was maybe the second movie or maybe it was the second or the third but there was a scene where they’re just getting down to like Juno Reactor I think was a soundtrack of a butt there is something beautiful about seeing the different the warrior culture Guided by elders and of course there’s different the archetypes playing out in Conflict split that to me was took it further than then the Star Trek Federation is a futuristic Elder guided Council guided kind of reality so that was kind of fun but yeah so that’s what came to mind when you’re at we’re talking about that be so cool if you’re early sexual oracle’s who you go to you know if we’re going to give you insights and maybe even have name your child for you or something cool like that you know be so cool but right on then will I worry about at the hours so do you have any closing touch you want to share or any other resources or should we just I’ll post the the links that you mention and I’ll definitely encourage people to stay informed and keep an eye out for your anything coming up you have any appearances or anything exciting like that coming up you want to mention I think yeah I think I covered a lot of it and I just wanted to maybe plant a seed while I have the airwaves here about something that I’d I’d eventually like to work on presenting which is around insert Intercultural relationships and also decolonizing our relationships as well and just thinking about how how we can heal some of these ancestral traumas and use that has as as a means to strengthen our relationships and also our society right on I’ll be looking forward to everything that you’re you’re expressing in the world and I hopefully yeah maybe sometime in the future we can talk about skill sets for Beyond Christian monogamy that would be a great topic so yeah how would you feel about that maybe we can sometime in the next few months follow up with something like that. Maybe by the by the time I’ll have more of a personal lived experience to a base conversation around that I think you know in terms of people who are already I don’t know how many listeners here are on a Christian spiritual path without that many but if the energy and gnosticism and sacred marriage not going to the alchemical top in the in the Gnostic tradition but I I wouldn’t make any claims to be an expert in that area but it’s definitely something to look at cool alright then we will be in touch and will follow up sometime in the future and thank you so much so be I really enjoyed it and I know it’s taking us a while to get this to get this done but I think it was perfect and I couldn’t ask for anything more so you have a wonderful day. Take care and keep for listening to the touch upon podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is to see me and if you want a podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been at Contra Punk. Com Thomas Day