Tag Archives: sexological bodywork

Best Practices for Male Sexual Healers with Charlie Glickman PhD TPP108


Charlie Glickman picIn this episode I’m blessed to be joined by Charlie Glickman, an acclaimed sexuality educator, sexual healer, and much more. His insights into both the glory and peril of sexual healing are at times heart warming and at times deeply chilling. Of all the conversations I’ve had on and off the podcast about these issues, this is one of the most raw and real.  He graciously holds space for me to vent and seek his guidance and offers an exemplary demonstration of how he’s able to be a masterful healer of healers and a teacher of teachers.

About Charlie:

Charlie Glickman PhD is a sex & relationship coach, a certified sexuality educator, and an internationally-acclaimed speaker. He’s certified as a sexological bodyworker and has been working in this field for over 20 years. His areas of focus include sex & shame, sex-positivity, queer issues, masculinity & gender, communities of erotic affiliation, and many sexual & relationship practices. Charlie is also the co-author of The Ultimate Guide to Prostate Pleasure: Erotic Exploration for Men and Their Partners. Find out more about him on his website or on Twitter and Facebook. For Charlie’s sex coaching services, visit Make Sex Easy.

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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin hello dear beloved welcome to Township Point podcast episode number 108 I’m very excited to be talking with Charlie Glickman he is a sex and relationship coach out of Seattle Washington and has an amazing blog I was checking on his website and seeing that to he also provides coaching services for sexuality Educators helping them to develop curricula and start your business and a whole lot more so I’m really excited that to know that there’s that kind of mentorship opportunity in the world and so looking forward to hearing all about it if you want to start a Charlie would you like to tell us about your personal life history and background that led up to your playing the roles that you play now in the sexuality education field I started off as a sex educator actually back in 1989 when I was in college I came out as queer and I started doing a campus Outreach LGBT Outreach for the other students and as a man doing this work especially in the years before we had any kind of treatment for HIV of course anytime I did an Outreach against somebody would ask me about safer sex or they would ask me about HIV so I figured okay I have to learn about this but when you are talking to people about safer sex well then you have to talk with them about a communication in negotiation and once you start doing that people start asking you how to give a better blow job or how do I tell my boyfriend how I want him to touch me and I realized with sexuality that everything is interconnected you really can’t just talk about one piece in isolation in for a number of years after that I worked volunteering at some different agencies in the San Francisco Bay Area I did say for sex Outreach I was a Rape Crisis counselor but it wasn’t until I got hired at goodbyes gracians which is be a premier women friendly sex positive toy store and I worked there for a number of years your while I was there I went back to grad school I thought I wanted to be a professor so I doubt a PhD in sex education and then realize that wasn’t what I wanted to do and when I left Good Vibrations in 2013 to go on tour for my book The Ultimate Guide to prostate pleasure that was when I stepped into coaching as a full-time thing you before that it had always been part of my work as an educator but that was when I stepped into it full-time and it’s been an amazing experience and I think a lot of my journey here I needed to grow into this I couldn’t have done this when I was younger now I’m not saying that other people can’t do it when they’re younger but for me on my trajectory I was 43 when I stepped into coaching so I’ve been a sex educator my entire adult life but the coaching is more recent and I find it incredibly fulfilling I I love helping individual couples polygroups learn how to overcome their sexual difficulties and I love knowing that right now at this very second somebody is having a better orgasm because of something that I taught them you know I and it makes me really happy to see how the field has grown in the last few years there when I started out you know in 1989 it was possible for one person to know everybody else in the field cuz there weren’t that many people and these days I meet people at conferences or workshops or when I travel and it’s amazing how many folks are doing this work in it and it’s about time because the world desperately needs healthy relationship to sexuality and this is one way how we we get there we are glad you like I guess it’s the last piece is that some of it for me is that I’m always exploring my own relationship to my sexuality and so working as a coach it gives me an additional motivation to take workshops or read books or do some research it’s it’s very much fuel my professional work is really fueled by my personal interests animals people in the field I think I could say the same thing about them yeah it’s very so diverse in its I guess it’s kind of like I was just at the auto shop with this family-owned auto shop that I’ve been going to for over 10 years and I asked him how do you guys keep up with all the changes in automobile automotive technology and they said we just luckily the guy YouTube now but you know they they just sort of figure it out so as all of the sexualities, Blossom and diversify into. Infinite forms it must be very exciting at to feel to have a professional budget to stay abreast with new identities and new practices and rediscovered ancient practices and it’s one of the challenges working in this field really anything having to do with sexuality is that we’ve lost so much information and it’ll be interesting to see what happens as the information age takes over but there have been sexologist and writers and researchers whose work has been destroyed and so we have to ReDiscover this over and over again and end so this is an interesting Arrow because we’re keeping this information in some ways more more thoroughly than we used to so is it what areas do you find most of Interest are you most passionate about I guess the prostate is one thing we can definitely go into cuz you just did that book but other brother are there areas that you feel that your top wheelhouse Shore kind of thing I do a lot of work with people who want to explore how to be more present in their bodies how to experience pleasure without dissociating or checking out how to tell a partner what they want me so much of my work is about how do I identify what you desire and how to talk about it with a partner so that you can get it again and it seems that seems like such an easy thing to say but I don’t know anybody in the world who hasn’t faced challenges with that at one point or another I also do a lot of work helping folks Explorer aspects of their sexuality that they didn’t know they were going to enjoy it so sometimes that might involve a G-spot clay or anal player prostate massage of those are some of my favorites because there are aspects of sexuality that people hear a lot about but they don’t necessarily know what to do and they’re also ways of having sex where a little information makes a huge difference in terms of your experience I love teaching people new ways to have orgasms read the last thing I’ve really been enjoying lately I have a workshop called somatic Sexual Healing where I take some of the somatic practice has been I’ve learned along the way and I adopted them to fit within the scope of practice that therapist use and so therapist can use them if their best can touch a client and they can do some of these exercises are therapists who choose not to can also died a couple through the exercise in and what I love about that is it’s one thing for me to tell you oh you know you should tell your partner how you want them to touch you it’s different when you have the experience of trying to put it into words and then talking about that and in real time so I love teaching therapist how to get better at supporting people sexualities it’s it’s long overdue I think absolutely and this is very important space to be developing in the policy and legality space to so do you have experience at all and I sort of political activism sensurround bringing more Consciousness and awareness around healing touch and professional full body healing what not fair it’s always a tricky dance because nobody workers are taught you know raping and looking away when the client is turning over and therapists are being told no touch at all and I understand the reasons for it but you know there’s therapist you won’t even shake their clients hands and we already live in such a touch phobic society that when you add that to it I think it creates even more disconnection the factor there is who is this touch for their what I’m doing somatic work with my clients to touch is for them not for me and I think that’s really the key to being clear in your ethics around it if it was this for what is the intention behind it if the intention behind an exercise is to satisfy my own desires well then that’s not ethical at all that’s not why my clients come to me but if the intention behind the touch is to help somebody learn something new about embodiment or learn something new about their erotic experience that’s a very different situation and I I would love to live in a world where more people understood the distinction between those two things well yeah I like the to recommend that people learn how to love themselves and others by trained professional lovers who that’s what they do all day everyday because they live up to your meme it seems like a no-brainer but we’re a long way from having sexual Arts be as is cherished and permitted is as martial arts but martial arts you know you sign a waiver that says you could be killed on professional who’s ethics are not always very clear either I actually think anybody who is doing Hands-On work would do well to take Betty Martin to work shop like a pro you can find it at Betty Martin. Org she is a sexological bodyworker and she has developed this amazing Workshop that helps practitioners understand how to be more clear in in the intention and I say that because I have heard too many stories from client students about teachers and practitioners who cross boundaries or push too fast or pressured somebody into doing something that they weren’t really ready for and that’s a real problem yeah so this is kind of a deep study of mine I’m in the process of developing a very novel practice and I have all of the the reaching out to mentors and elders and other practitioners that I’m kind of narrowed it down to just like a doctor wouldn’t want to be doing a breast exam without a nurse present you should you probably if you’re smart and you’re a man is mainly if your man you you should probably not want to be in a situation where there could ever be a possibility for a dispute or discrepancy and what was you know conducted the conduct and the agreements around the conduct and the response to feed back around what’s happening so we’re having very clear guidelines for the container of sexological Bodywork session all touch is one way from the practitioner to the client the practitioner stays fully clothed and other practitioner uses gloves for any genital or anal touch and and that also goes a long way towards making sure that the container is held really solidly because especially the one way Touch by touch and fully clothed that’s not something that works for all modalities that’s not going to work necessarily for country has for example but that’s another way that right yeah well thank you for that definitely is nice to know that there’s reference points for best practices and what would you say then are some qualities maybe some dye self diagnostics are things that people are aspiring to be on this path or maybe they already have a practice and they’re listening to this and they kind of aren’t aren’t first or or contracted with the sexual logical bodyworker at the Cole protocol let’s say where I mean I’ve I’ve read some of the benefits of that those documents and they’re very solid and very strict and you know to hold that title in to represent that training you have to really be an Integrity policy against for example if if people were to with or without formal training or certification want to be a friend or a lover or someone who is if they if they couldn’t afford that kind of work but they know that well this something really magical happens when you massage a G-spot or prostate for you no more than a few seconds really with a certain quality of attention and magical things can happen that are very healing and in if people start to discover that that is one of many experiences to be explored in a therapeutic contest against the question will be how how would internally what process should have should a provider kind of go through you know staying focused breathing is are there are there I guess who would you say is like a habits to get into mental habits and physical habits to to really solidly bill that that that container in that quality of it being one directional in it and like you said who is the touch for just maintaining that no discipline I think there’s a couple of things one is I think it’s absolutely true that lovers and partners can provide some incredible healing touch but I think it’s also important for people who are are coming from that lover space to not to not overextend what they can do and what I mean by that is that if you’re if you’re somebody’s lover you can definitely bring the nurturing healing touch to your partner but it’s not going to be the same thing as if they were working with a practitioner not not better or worse it’s just different and I say that because when you’re when you’re with somebody who you have a personal relationship with it’s really easy for things to get money because your own personal desires are going to start coming into play one of the things that happens as folks go through their training at least many trainings is learning to set your own erotic energy aside or maybe not erotic energy but your own erotic and needs aside so that you can be in service and it’s very it’s not impossible but it’s very difficult to come from a place of genuine service when you have that kind of personal connection with someone write your own agenda shows up so that’s one thing I think another thing is getting really clear on how you talk about things and how you communicate about things because you can only take somebody as far as you’ve gone yourself and something I have learned about sexual communication is that almost everybody thinks that they’re better at it than they actually are there’s times when I don’t tell my partner what I want or I go along with something that I’m not really a fully yes to because I don’t feel like getting into it with you everybody does that sometimes but really didn’t clear on your where where is your shadow and where is your motivation and am I coming you are you coming at this experience because of some of your own shadow and it’s funny because your people often say that money changes everything and it gets in the way I got to say when I started working as a practitioner and getting paid to do some of this it actually made my personal relationships much cleaner because I was able to see the distinction between the equal exchange of lovers which is different from the equal exchange of practitioner client and if you’re my client all of my focus is on you it’s not about what I want is not about what I need if I need to get some emotional support around my experience I take that to one of my colleagues I’m because getting paid makes a clear Container makes for a clear boundary in a personal relationship it’s really easy to tell somebody oh you know I want to do this thing because I want to take care of you but there might also be a motivation in there of I want to get laid or I’m feeling lonely and I want some connection or I just read about this new thing and I’m really excited to show it off this this new technique it gets a little it gets a little muddy sometimes your partner with also be sort of most often feeling guilt or obligation to reciprocate you know did they might offer a friend to shoulder rub but really most of the time professional body workers will say hey maybe you should go be somebody else to get your frozen shoulder fixed because I would really like for this to not feel like work so it’s really important especially for the number of times I have heard a hoax of any gender but particularly women saying things like oh yeah so this guy I was dating he said that this was going to be you know what this healing experience but it really just felt creepy a lot of men do that and I think it’s important for us to shift out of that that’s important gas so that this it’s such a slits someone as one of my friends said sex is the slipperiest of slopes and it certainly is so yeah part I feel I’ve been in it I will consider myself an activist around this issue and so yeah you’re and I appreciate your insights in and being straightforward that’s really the the the the vibration of the energy or the experience that is the absolute polar opposite of the intention of making someone feel safe and supported in and healed and nurtured so I definitely want to Explore More of the what factors could be mitigated around that creepiness vibration and comes up and I guess took to launch that that inquiry I would say I had said I feel like it’s a guess but it’s it it’s maybe it’s an assumption but in my experience it’s it’s been spot-on and I feel like it’s protected me but to have if you were male having a female nurse out-of-sorts if not a nurse practitioner by training a person with experience in a modality where they have the they have an awareness of what’s Happening they know what to expect and how to respond and they’re being a very much especially if you’re a man and you’re doing Hands-On pelvic touch work your focus is in that realm and you’re queuing into that so deeply so you wouldn’t even know what the facial expressions are happening on the person you wouldn’t maybe even here if they’re murmuring things that are reason you no red flags to back off and so to not have somebody there to relay information into be doing the the Care at at the top half of the body either way I see it I think it’s a real other just it to Institute that is as a as a policy or is a best practice seems like it would eliminate a lot of even amongst things lovers in in in addition to practitioners and clients but just that the I’m curious if you have if you have any case studies or anecdotal knowledge about how yeah but the people that I don’t know another reason why the practitioner client relationship is different than the love of relationship because you’re absolutely right in my personal life if I’m having sex with somebody there are times when I’ll be so focused on my experience that I might miss some of that important information but when I’m in practitioner mode tracking what my hands are doing I’m tracking their body the breathing what they’re saying what they’re energetic field is doing and it’s because my erotic energy is not getting in the way the same way that giving somebody a backrub because you’re a trained massage provider you’re paying attention to things in a very different way than giving some of the backrub because you know you’re trying to seduce them so maybe that’s part of the two so when you when you were saying that women have reported to you when lovers or infatuated friends or whatever the dynamic is when they come across as that you know what someone just said this to me recently A friend of mine who is a in the transformational festival movement and consider yourself part of the you no more conscious radical left and green sort of movement where there’s a lot of new age spiritual type people but she basically said you have people these guys are scary some of these spiritual guys are scarier than the the jocks and the bad boys out in the mainstream because at least you know what to expect from those guys but the spiritual guys will come up an inch in her where she said they try to you know get their use their woohoo to get in her womb you know so I think if somebody is is going to try to offer sexual healing for free I’m very skeptical of it I’m skeptical of it because it actually requires a deep level of training and it requires a really solid ethical container and honestly you know if somebody said to me you know oh well you have a you know you have a back injury I’ll spend two hours working on your shoulder and your back for free I would wonder what they were getting out of it and I think when I think there’s a lot of before I know that there’s a lot of men who will say oh you know I just love doing this I don’t need anything from it and I’ve known one or two guys were that’s been true but the majority of the cases that I know of there’s actually an agenda there and and unfortunately that makes it much harder for everybody because now it decreases trust and it means that somebody might be less likely to contact me or one of my colleagues because they’ve had this experience with some random dude at a festival dominates the Integrity of the whole field already of a provider relationship is it fine to keep since cleaner reminds me of one other thing that I think anybody who does this work or if he’s thinking about doing this work should also be familiar with is a how to deal with trauma because so many people are dealing with sexual trauma people of all genders and if you’re not ready to hold space for somebody moving through healing from trauma are not ready to do this one I unfortunately I find it I just assumed that everybody is a trauma Survivor because I’m wrong less often this is getting really deep in in in powerful yeah I am I guess I want to ask you now because these are if I just I just interviewed this woman he’s got a blood clot sluttygirlproblems and I’ve heard about just these cultural cliches pretty girl problems and pornstar girl problems instead of and it’s what we’re talking about is male sexual heater problems to sort of lament a little bit if you will open up a little bit and now there is a flip side to the dynamic that that we were just talking about which is the sort of stereotypical creepy woo Predator you know Festival guy who wants to use healing has a ruse to be a sex junkie you know her and sort of a telling a woman whatever she wants to hear or sort of using this social engineering pick up Artistry that is creepy because it’s manipulative in it’s not truly transparent and there’s a shadow of how many times this week the same lines were used it were used to know you’re the goddess of you know the perversion of of that divinization that Tantra is going for but you know so we have basically we’re pretty well-versed in understanding that you had a higher advanced level of being practitioners or or doing the stuff you know how to say as a way of life and then just even the common way people give young people though if they have any intuition they will sense that and hopefully be repulsed by it and hopefully have good friends around them to protect them especially if they’re on substances at a festival but having sort of covered that I would say now here’s the other flip side of that which is it there if you are a whatever whatever gender but we’ll just say mail for now for the purposes conversation it’s another issue to be outspoken as a Healer with whatever you know professional hat that you’re wearing or whatever boundaries or compensation schemes you might have within having let’s just say women want want to think they are the ones with the agenda there if they come up and say I just want to Healing I don’t want to be your to I don’t want to take you away from your work or put you into a monogamous relationship with guilt in and trap you with emotional manipulation so that I can parade around with you and you be my my man there’s also the shadow of the secrets of healing in an inappropriate manner where it’s it’s a it’s not the guy using the healing to get in the women’s pants it’s the woman using her trauma to get in the men’s in the man’s pants or in the man’s hands or in the man’s life and I’m wondering if that obviously this is could sound very anti-feminist or something but really it’s I want to be safe and protecting and understanding everybody so do you have any thoughts on that variation of that I’ve experienced more is when somebody is wanting wanting that kind of deep healing experience and rather than being willing to approach me as a provider you know they’ll flirt with me or the piano and and gets money that’s not it’s really muddy and I think there’s a lot of reasons for that and I hope that didn’t sound like oh yeah I’m so sexy these women are putting their that’s not what I mean but it’s happened a few times where somebody will try to engage me on a personal level when was there really wanting is my Professional Services and when I noticed that happening I’ve just developed a very easy response which is a hey you know so it sounds like what you’re looking for is search semi-professional offerings on I’d be happy to talk with you about that here’s my business card right because this festival or this party you know maybe one of us is Trunk or not sober in some other way or there’s no confidentiality because there’s people all around why don’t we schedule a Skype call to talk about what’s going on and how I can help because I do think you’re right there’s this new in the way that there are men who will present themselves as offering healing in order to get laid there are some women who will offer some kind of erotic energy in order to get the key you know this this isn’t restricted to that particular gender Dynamic but I see that’s most often in that way right so this is his sister sticky sticky territory so this isn’t until the next the next level of complexity of this conundrum really and I think you’ve already laid out good best practices of boundaries and everything you’re saying is just back to an important distinction and and holding up your your boundaries in in your professional Ethics in all circumstances and that’s commendable so you know I’ve definitely had times when I was not as practiced with it as I am now there’s not a lot of folks who are practitioners who were struggling with this and just know that everybody struggles with this to I mean your wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from messing up yeah and we can stand on the backs of giants who has fallen many times with her stumble but hopefully you’re not falling so so here’s the next level where he did it just gets even more tragically comedic fortunately but I’m sure we’ll find the Glorious way ship to navigate through so it’s a if I if I can piece this together it would be so when you become a highly skilled practitioner or experience than again not to say that in a egotistical way but it’s just a fact you know if you were you know I like to use the martial arts analogies I mean if you were if you were a black belt you should not be street fighting because you could seriously hurt people and they don’t even know what they’re up against they don’t know it’s not an equal match so you have to use your skill two of you don’t you just stop going to the bars so you know you just in the chits it’s so interesting me the curve of the better you are at violence if it’s in a traditional martial arts training contacts the less violence you will encounter in life because you have respect for the human body and mind Spirit soul excetera and there’s an interesting what I’m observing just personally in my own journey and what I’m observing certainly watching other people make these mistakes and just you know wincing sing oh I’m so glad I’m avoiding those those those negative circumstances so what that all that is to say that the level of discipline and sort of self vigilance that you have to have carrying yourself kind of holding onto the sacred you could if you believe it it’s sacred healing Divine energy or if it’s just methodical you know mechanical procedures with the hands and you know that whichever way you look at it the fact is you are a a a powerful healing force to be reckoned with by anybody’s heart anybody’s ego in anybody’s way of getting in you know how to getting into relationships or getting or hooking up for getting it on so being so in this world now the problem is you can’t just date people from this disability and mainstream are pornstars calls mainstream non adult performers civilians because they’re in a sort of separate now you know subculture secret society almost where they’re very open and not super neurotic about you know being naked in a lot of things kind of evaporate that you know change their Dynamic so this not to have it be a dating ever love line dating advice kind of show but I mean what what issues do you encounter and what wisdom and intelligence do you have around okay well how do you adjust date and how do you find two people as civilians I often tell people in the field right that it’s very difficult to date models because you’ve gotten to it a certain point in your own trajectory you is hard to find people who you can meet as equals and its importance to do that for your own safety yeah I’ve seen a lot of folks try to get involved with somebody who is more towards the muzzle end of the spectrum and and it’s difficult to coach your partner I have to admit I find so I often describe myself as a sex geek and the people who I resonate best live in my personal life as if my sexual partners are also sex games they don’t need to be a professional sex Geeks but they need to be sexy when I talk about sex Geeks the best comparison I have is you sex Geeks are to sex what food is our to food like the people who like to eat out of that food and where did this come from in this interesting combination in this new technique I learned I find for myself bed and if somebody isn’t operating at that on that plane out at that level then we we have a nun if relationship having said that at least in the professional sexy geek Circle and I see this also in Tantra circles are you looking specifically at male female dating there are more women looking for men than there are men looking for women so there is a gender imbalance there that can often be I can also be tricky and so you know I’ve known a number of female practitioners who have basically found Partners who had a lot of promise when they met and they had some coaching Dynamic to sort of get the guy fully up to speed and and again I don’t want that to sound arrogant but when you spend you know when you spend a few years thinking and talking about sex all the time you know if it becomes very difficult to then go back to what it was like before right yeah you really have to find people who can play at your level or you have to be willing to train somebody to that point I mean that’s the same if you are a tennis player right you’re going to have more fun playing with someone who’s at your level very similar so now here okay now if it couldn’t that then I appreciate all that good that’s and I under a lot of women who are evolving rapidly discovering their anatomy and having a deep relationship and using the Yoni eggs and the mirrors and doing Yoni steam baths and having Circles of work emitz it’s unbelievable how rapid the the cat is coming out of the bag with female sexual empowerment and how far back in the Dark Ages the masculine Paradigm is so there’s plenty of grow it’s a growth industry for men who are making producing the higher vibrational higher conscious higher-performing more heart and genital connected and mine connected men so that those the growing numbers of the oven light and sexually like women are able to actually solve that problem of finding equals as well so yeah this is a great time to be alive so now he then I guess I would say is if you don’t mind that I’m sort of hijacking this to make it into a coaching session for my own you know I think it’ll benefit everybody thanks yes so I’ve been thinking about me not basically since I’ve been on this path I have been almost completely celibate and there’s been very few times where I have felt safe that the energy that I’ve cultivated will be used wisely and respectfully and understood properly and not hoarded and and I’m sort of I mean it’s sad to say but if you end up becoming a woman’s God a woman’s father and daddy that she never had the first man to ever give her an orgasm or any form of really sustained sexual pleasure and and to Enlighten them to the experience of Eternal multi-orgasmic tantric Bliss the first visual snapshots with third eye of the Divine Realms that’s a big shoe for the next guy you know so it’s understandable and that’s not being egotistical but that is what you’re supposed to be able to bring to the bedroom you know or to the table of sex work session and healing work session so did the trouble the 10th of the male sexual healer problems trouble that I have been avoiding you know for years is just that when I discover that there is is an addictive tendency that is not matured through through lots of work you know you can’t expect that if you done a bunch of discipline work you know that you work hard to achieve and you just want to say cast your pearls among swine that would be you know mixing metaphors that I don’t want to evoke necessarily but there is some truth to that discernment and in a word with so now the way that I’ve had two I guess conceived of not because I do not want to be a celibate monk I mean in so yes I’m doing you know Outreach to people more on my level and if it that can be what’s the word and another one of my bread with no problem for me is it I don’t really like the Marquis De Sade dungeon aesthetic that comes from Nazi Germany and other forms of I mean I don’t want to I don’t want to discredit or put anyone down but it just is not my cup of tea to be in in the in the sort of stereotypical BDSM Kink dungeon environment where it’s probably better that I go there then I go to a singles bar to get connected with people having attracted to it’s probably cuz they will be sex Geeks they would be interested in ecstatic experiences and they’ve probably been pretty I know I’ve been through all this but my the women who come into my life who I am attracted to who feel like they they would have been there like messiah’s of the goddess or there is sort of you know the synchronicity around it is somehow blessed and a higher level than just you know me hitting on them or something you know that gets a friend is recommended there’s a there’s a magical process of of of courtship that you know there’s different degrees of how how house how she for how sloppy meeting the for the first time was vs. if you meet in a really complex constellation of synergy and in synchronicity then there’s more Merit and I kind of have this hierarchy of of women in my life where yeah that was the one that I wasn’t chasing because I was really horny for her that was the one that came in a totally blessed and sacred sort of pathway so I’m just kind of venting a little bit but that but what what all of these all of this Peril has sort of boiled down to is is miss my sense that I feel like and this is where becomes a question for you is it this in it kind of a kind of breaks the pattern of everything we set up to this point and that the agreement that I have with you so it’ll be a gift to to get this feedback so it’s it’s it’s like this because I do not want to take on the karma and baggage of an unhealed non practitioner woman I am going to insist that before we have unbridled wild passionate intercourse that either me or someone else has got to do to take out the trash so to speak from all of her previous relationships all of her daddy issues and if we gets if we get through enough of that perhaps some family curses and past life issues and that’s where it gets more esoteric and more you know what’s the word the clinical Medical Science doesn’t doesn’t drive with all that terminology but that you know where I’m at with this stuff so I feel like what it what do you what would it what comes to your mind on the ethics of a man who says because I know that I don’t want to absorb all of this negative karmic energy that’s embedded in you you know I’m going to insist that the healing the sexual healing work is a prerequisite before we can fuck you know you see what you’re saying is part of what you’re saying is you are not wanting to take on if that’s not wanting to take somebody else’s healing work on it as part of a personal relationship but it doesn’t have to be me who does it just has to it’s just a job that has to be done you know it’s you can’t just jump on my lap and start fucking me because I wouldn’t be fucking you I’d be fucking in 20 I have your last boyfriends and your father I think the way that I would approach that it would be more around asking somebody you know so tell me a little bit about your own Sexual Healing Journey tell me a little bit about you know how you got to where you are what what are some of the things you’ve done to explore this cuz yeah everybody has everybody is baggage it’s really just a question of what is your relationship to it and if it feels to you like somebody is is not ready right if it feels to like it’s new just where where they are in their trajectory isn’t a good match for you you I think a good way to say that would be you know it so it sounds like you and I are in some pretty different places in our life right now and I don’t think we’re a good fit that’s that. The other flavor of that is you know it’s really it’s because of the work that I do you know I’m constantly I’m always doing my own learning my own growth around this and it’s really important for me that anybody in my life or anybody who I’m in a relationship with is also doing the same so if this is going to be more than a casual thing you know it’s important from me or I would feel more comfortable if you were on your own Sexual Healing how far you had a therapist or usual you know we’re doing a meditation practice or whatever it is and you know and the reason for that is that you know I’m a tantra guys right there in my my website right I’d like to go deep and that means that we need a really solid container and sometimes that means having some back up cuz I thought that might be more how I would personally approaching but that’s that’s just my style my communication style beans in that direction in the way I was characterizing my unfiltered sentiment was communicated in the moment so I appreciate you exactly filtering it in and that was those are very good dimensions and what I would have actually been doing as a practice is saying referring women out to female tantricas who if they can afford it or they can even if any of them if they can work out some arrangement of apprenticeship or a paid client practitioner relationship it’s basically in order to enter my body in order to access the offerings of my body Temple you will have to get a stamp of approval from my sort of Council of priestesses who are working to protect me from political disaster I like to operate at a really intent in a really intense way and the best way to do that safely is to have a support structure yeah and like you said because we have to assume her or it will I’m going to I’m going to add that level of urgency to it that yeah we should assume that too if a person hasn’t has not experienced physical sexual violation as a child there’s still Trauma from unsatisfactory sexual experiences that cause contraction in the body usually virginity is not a high sophistical probability of being very well designed as it as a ceremony and just walking out into the world and being assaulted by Billboards were just in a soup of trauma so the the responsibility to when you open someone up with your blasting them with really high quality purified loving energy and you have the sexual stamina to get it where it needs to go all throughout the astral body then you’re going to cause these fractures and those pain parts of the solar going to finally get released and that can really discombobulated somebody so that they can’t go back to the cubicle on Monday morning know so do you want to talk a bit about Aftercare and what to best practices are for people who are getting into this trauma healing territory just making sure that the things feel safe and complete and one of the things that I think is relevant there is that when we have a big expansion of any kind of sexual emotional in a whatever it is sometimes afterwards we have a contraction and it’s it’s no different if it’s no different than a fundamental level between waking up after a really big workout or going for a long hike and feeling a little bit sore but I call it a shame over it’s like a hangover but it can it can but it can really feel like it’s this process and so one of the things that you can do is part about your character is checking to see you is my partner having a shame over or do they need any care is there anything I can do to support them through this because you know if you’re going to do something for somebody has a big expansion and you’re not taking steps to take care of the contraction that might happen after that then you’re not taking care of them and if you’re not taking care of your partner then let’s just admit that you’re not doing it because you are taking care of them but you’re doing it for your own reasons then that’s where we get back to the creepy thing cuz now as you’re saying this time I’m literally visualizing the pattern of these creepy Encounters of a woo woo guys at festivals let’s say where is probably where the where the most it’s like the wild west of sexual energetic boundary violation and transgression that’s actually you know extremely traumatizing and I’m hearing about it more and more and it said and it all goes back to the The Summer of Love then you know things default into debauchery if you have pretty quickly on Haight Street at that time unfortunately because the drugs changed but you know that’s a whole other Vibe with you on about what you just said is it on so the if we have this Aftercare Ark the sexual healing experience Ark that involves after care and it’s not just this Spike of a penetrative intercourse exchange that last 4 minutes or or can last for hours whatever you know it’s it but the thing is if a man is behavior is it’s a very stereotypical sort of cliche thing is like oh he he was sweet-talking me and get filling me with pillow-talk for however long it took to get laid and have sex and then she disappeared and he wouldn’t even look at me or talk to me and that was so hurtful and harmful and that is in violation of the sense of understanding that when you open the door of orgasm and you bring love and you know pleasure and passion there you’re just beginning a journey with their soul really in so if you don’t take responsibility for the Aftercare and in a manner that you’re describing and and having that sense then that’s probably the the thing to watch out for so may I ask the one about the about this the other day and she said I said what what what could make it better at what would how would you improve these guys who are doing the stuff in and she’s like well I would like them to to tell me what their expectations for follow-up are you know what is it going to mean afterwards and how what can I expect from you and if what can I expect from you is nothing right people will say they’ll follow up or they’ll do something and then they won’t do it because they don’t want to be honest about the fact that they’re just in it to get laid and and don’t get me wrong I’ve got no problem with folks having casual sex if that’s what they want to have but at least be honest about what you are looking for you know I end up having said that even with a casual partner you can still send them a text message the next day and say hey how are you doing I had a great time last night still have Aftercare in a in a casual situation I’m a big believer in you know putting your toys away in as good condition as they were when you found them I just think that’s important beautiful yeah but we have covered some some very amazing deep intense territory and I and I just got to thank you so much again for allowing me to both event and also gets some access to some really important wisdom that you cultivate and to be fair with your energy exchange with me and to to be a good Steward of this container I want to say please do whatever you would like to promote your service and get people to your website and let’s get you some some reciprocity for all of this gifting that you’ve been giving so Facebook and Twitter and FetLife and all those other websites it’s traffic like men are all one word and then my my website is make sex easy.com I’m also at Charlie Glickman. she is my coaching page and I do coaching both are you at home in Seattle as well as when I’m on the road but I also do a lot of coaching over Skype so if anybody knew if you’re interested in exploring back further I offer a free 30-minute get-acquainted call to find out what’s going on am I the Right fit and if I’m not the right person for you I’ll do my best to find somebody who would be a better match so get in touch anytime I would love to hear from you awesome thanks so much yes please access to services and also do you want to talk a bit more specifically about the two offerings as a sexuality educator coach and consultant cuz I was howling at that for people who are I in the field who are wanting to develop workshops or curricula I have a lot of experience design and workshops and I can help you I create a more Dynamic experience that will get rate for views from your participant and because sexuality professionals often struggle to find professional support who’s up to their speed it can be hard to find a therapist or a food you understand what it’s like to work in this field I have a sliding scale for sexuality professionals looking for coaching so feel free to get in touch around that too and thank you for the reminder then we I wanted to Tootie’s that out of all things because it was it stood out it’s so outstanding to me and just through the process of kind of Talking Shop we ended up really bringing out and I think you were able to do a live demo tied around some of the stuff so U U of M definitely impressed me to be able to you know advice on some of these extremely complex matters and especially the ones that really break taboos and also push the envelope of our vocabulary around spirituality and sexuality that’s s such an important skill to be able to to be tuned in and to be able to walk between the worlds of the clinical Western Medical Paradigm and the shamanic Sexual Healing spiritual you know. I’m so I think you are absolutely cool what’s the do you have any final words or advice or anything else you want to share with four we call it a day let’s see ya breathe more drink more water and have really really good sex whatever that means for you thank you that I look forward to after the next time we’ll definitely all right so hopefully we’ll have some exciting new adventures to explore and I hope that I can get you some some really qualified leads through promoting this podcast so we’ll be in touch all right take care of Central Park. Calm and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is to see me and improving the podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple ever by Kika logical employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 8 18275 593 oreimo bad I kontrapunkt. Com Thomas Day

Understanding Sexological Bodywork with Dr. Victoria Reuveni TPP106



In this episode I’m joined by Dr. Victoria Reuveni, a highly experienced and accomplished sexuality educator and healer. We explore the ins and outs of sexological bodywork, some of the bottle-necks of the practice, and compare notes on how we would like the field of hands-on sexual healing grow and evolve as it reaches and helps more and more people and gains more momentum and recognition in all of it’s diverse modalities.

Please visit her website at:

Dr. Victoria Reuveni, DHS, CSB, ACSI, is a Los Angeles-based sexological bodyworker, sex educator, and coach working with individuals, couples, and groups to facilitate going deeper in erotic embodiment and self-acceptance through mindfulness, breath work, and touch. She blogs about sex, kink, gender, and body image and reviews sex toys.

Victoria is a board member and educator with the Center for Positive Sexuality, speaking on panels to university students and professionals about kink/BDSM, nonmonogamy, and sex work.

She has facilitated over thirty Orgasmic Yoga circles, including a six-week series and monthly circles in Los Angeles, a three-evening mini-series in 2016 in Sacramento which will be reprised in June 2017.

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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin hello dear beloved’s welcome to Township hunting podcast episode number 106 I am here with Victoria the sexologist Vixen and she’s got an amazing array of qualifications as a sex. One of the most comprehensive personalities I’ve yet discovered and then she’s really skilled in a number of modalities sexual healing and Bodywork modalities that have been touched on before I say briefly in the past and past episodes and so this is going to be a real treat to be able to go and deeply explore some of you some very cutting-edge sexuality and sexual therapeutic modalities out there so give us an introduction tell us about how you achieved all these great things and what your life has been like and what you’re offering now and what’s what’s next to chat so I wouldn’t say that when I started on this past that I knew I’d be touching people and helping them for pleasure and things like that but I guess growing up I was raised in an Orthodox Jewish household upbringing I went to Orthodox Jewish schools through 12th grade but also I was raised living in West Hollywood California open this happening around me but also not so much opportunity around sex positivity and things like that so that was super interested and then fast forward to my undergrad I found out that I was a Psychology major and I noticed I was taking a few classes that were we call it part of the requirement to meet for human sexuality minor so I was like okay I’m actually super interested in this I think at the time I’ve been listening to a couple podcasts and my appetite you know was was like open and ready as hungry for kind of anything and so yeah I went sort of down that human sexuality minor and start of by the time maybe like what he called like within like a semester or two before I was graduating of the kindest abandoned this whole psychology side of things is like too much and I at that point I knew I did not want to go into practice or like having to diagnose people or pathologize people in it’s a it’s kind of a mess but anywho after I graduated I didn’t really know where my path is going to take me knowing that I didn’t want to become a psychologist and so I was looking into programs that had human sexuality like doctorates or or Master’s programs things like that and through whole series of events and searching and being rejected from universities which happens and turn out to be blessings in Disguise I went to The Institute in San Francisco and was working on my doctorate in human sexuality was just I was qualified not if you did see but more it’s a DHS sexuality which was very much more about experiential learning and challenging by season and preconceived notions and things like that rather than necessarily academically rigorous which suited me just fine like all of them work with masturbation but there was a chunk of that but definitely a lot more like reading and dust exposure to some amazing amazing resources to be videotaped all their lectures like from like the 70s so even though I didn’t get to see people in person but I got to feel like Weird Al Pomeroy who is Kenzie’s right hand person so there’s a really phenomenal much has to be exposed to and and also coming into things eBay stuff so around the time I was working through my doctorate they had an offering for psychological Bodywork training which at the time I intended to take because I was thinking well I’m kind of leaning towards going until like coaching kinds of things and and you know hoping to work we know one-on-one or maybe with couples are groups or various configurations like that but how dare I someone who’s hoping to teach or work with folks around pleasure or overcoming sexual concerns how do how do I even touch that or you know work with that if I have no understanding of of the body and the body can do so I just took that as sort of adding to my toolbox I was kind of no intention to to use it and I even going through the at home training in the first portion of of of the training I have a bit of resistance and I was like I don’t want to find peoples buttholes and massage buttholes so difficult you know if you like critical dragged my feet even though I was very like conscious of the fact that I paid to do this and then we had our in-person intensive part of the training real work done each other and some kind of lightbulb rice which kind of turn on for me and I’ll actually complimented on my touch which was like kind of huge and revelatory and so kind of from there I’ve my focus has been more on sex logical Body Works and trying to delve more until like expanding pleasure sides of things a little bit more than overcoming concerns per say although that is no the other side of the coin and then the orgasmic yoga portion of my recent stuff that I’ve been doing is that when we were going to the training for sexological Bodywork we did we were exposed to through some of the videos and things we had to watch and some of the end part of it was that when we were we will start our days each day during orgasm and so it was like there’s there’s nothing that will compare to being in a room with 20 something people of all different ages and genders and presentations and orientation Court being a note constantly and Body in touch as happening like 10 hours a day for 2 weeks but I I love the practice and I want to try to encapsulate at least a little tiny nugget I can share with folks and I found through somewhat consistent practice of this all so that I’m able to tap into my own like authentic glasses and nose and it’s been really really amazing to like BB and ion process and hold other people’s process used process used throughout and so those are kind of the two things I do I also sporadically blog really bad about consistency and I review sex toys sometimes yes consistency is a thing but yeah that’s kind of me in a nutshell okay so great so how did people or what what do you mean offerings then in your your location and, if you were doing a promo piece what was you what would you like people to to know about what you have to offer so I am based out of Los Angeles and I have been holding orgasmic yoga circles between one and two. Like one or two a month for the past few months said love for folks to know check that out through my website and find out more it’s not for everybody but super edgy so Mike I got it but there’s a form their questions and I kind of like four people through that I don’t have a current date yet on my calendar yet for that but possibly another one at the end of April I just had one this Tuesday so I still haven’t attacked that down yet to see and yeah just one-on-one or or partnered or couple’s sort of Hands-On work if that feels right or just coaching some people just don’t have a space and Sara Lee to talk about sexuality or like what’s going on with them and so I feel like I’m kind of you know I’m a dork I feel like I’m pretty approachable and I’m goofy and I don’t claim to like have all the answers that will solve all things but I think a big part of what I do is in permission giving and giving people options who’s who doesn’t love option Hawaii have or when you can head and right on well that’s that’s wonderful so Yaz mentioning before that 6 logical body work has been near and dear to me through various friends and colleagues and I feel like this would be a great opportunity if you were if you’re interested to kind of give an overview of what the training is what you know about the background and and how it really stands out is a very unique opportunity for people in the sex industry for people who are in the therapeutic industry and in feels it’s a really amazing sort of under under what would it be I would like you to have to have more people to have way more understanding awareness that this is that this option exists and it’s really it’s been it’s kind of underground as a practice compared to many other modalities that are getting a lot of press in a lot of you know just people that are hip to a lot of other offerings but this is something that is could be the most pivotal and impactful for anyone and everyone is certainly people who are doing with drama and survivors so yeah with that said if you could just introduced that years ago like around this time so like in the spring so but my recollection of it is correct it came kind of from I stink like Body Electric sorts of a community I don’t know if you know about them but they’re very much like a rhotic embodiment practice and I think the focus is more on on men but they might be bringing more women stuff now I’m a little fuzzy on that and I don’t want to speak totally I’m incorrectly but I think it’s kind of weird that started I’m Joseph Kramer was one of the biggest I think people behind that and yeah we still have some of his old videos or just pretty fun and so the the whole thing behind it is that you know talk sorts of therapy can kind of only go so far the super valuable and I know I couldn’t you just that which is obviously, I I I chose not to go down that path but there’s so much learning and wisdom that can be found sabbatical you know in the body and because of you know various laws and all these other sorts of red tape and things a lot of talk therapists can’t do touch so I think it would be valuable and this is actually one of the things I’m kind of envious about intern like in comparison to surrogate partner therapy wishes that they work in a triadic model with you know the practitioner and a therapist and the client where the start of sex logical body workers are kind of on their own kind of would be nice to have some folks like me that way but you been on that for just a second cuz I I like that word yet so if I’m if I’m assuming an understanding correctly a triadic model so that’s where four if if you were a sex surrogate it’s allowed legally and I don’t know how many states are jurisdictions but it exists as a as a legal serve certification or role that you can have so that you can actually have full on sexual intercourse if you were referred by a by a state licensed psychotherapist to have that experience as part of your treatment plan and so is that what you mean by the Triad there’s like a kind of a free-floating and sex prescription 6 a.m. constant check in with the person who is also working through whatever it is you know Siri talk to or talk modality and then having sort of accountability system happening all things are being communicated but also I mean sex doesn’t always necessarily happen in that space and if it does it’s usually the last thing and a lot of cases I’m totally going off on a tangent but it is different from a good point to make is that a lot of times in Insurgent work it’s more fun working like with intimacy and so being able to feel like a real late with another person and kind of creating sort of our world kinship for this. Of time with you know a beginning middle and an end and it’s kind of structured in a certain way and yes you know sex whatever penetration might happen but that’s way way down below and I think that’s not that’s not something but usually known or is not understood you’re saying that the the The Stereotype from the outside is that you’re illegal sex worker who has sex for money that’s legal but what you’re saying is actually that’s either a small part of it or maybe not even necessarily has to happen but it’s it’s it’s allowed to happen legally for late cuz for some people maybe they they have trouble you no talking to the the gender person that they are attracted to their have trouble you know like holding hands or making whatever the moves are or or I gave thing or any of these things and I could be a huge sources of anxiety and so having this sort of very structured safe space to practice these things is super valuable like no one teaches anyone to be sexually literate we just hope you know hey you turn 18 in magical you’re supposed to know how to do all these things that we haven’t ever talked about them right cuz you know teenagers turn on it or not you know they’re not sexually a conversation or able to do things actually happen before we before we go for it this is really just really exactly what I was hoping to find out so I appreciate it yet by all means take your time with it with everything so what is would so crucial to me in in in this these understandings is how the logic of the patriarchal institutions of government and morality and I’m Center he actually what precedents there are to build new policy on in and what does I know you’re not actually a lawyer you’re operating in in in territories that lawyers have been fighting on the front lines of and there’s been a lot of it we’re all standing on the backs of giants from all of the precedent setting cases that have happened so that we want we want it I’m not I’m not expecting you to go into all that stuff but I have one question which you may or may not have any reason to to have an answer to but it’s I’m super curious now as we’re going into the surrogate discussion a little bit is are there health insurance programs that cover the the therapy that there that the truck that that triadic model of accessing services for mental health or is it totally not covered yet and I don’t know currently but my my understanding or like my recollection is that no there I don’t think there is much support a connection with like you know mental health jobs at least not in the US I would think and probably I could be totally wrong and I hope people will correct me because I’m open to learning and you know knowing but and that’s also becomes a thing that’s a huge problem in terms of just you know health and mental health in all these things that is it’s the services that maybe are available or difficult for folks who don’t have resources and can you know if you don’t have you know if you can’t pay for the services cuz it’s one thing to maybe go to a therapist or maybe one thing to go to a body worker but then you’re paying for two Services if it’s can be costly and you know I don’t want to put any of my fellow folks out of out of work but it’s it’s this whole I don’t know like House of Cards in a way we’re like we don’t we don’t have these conversations or we shut sexuality down like four entire lives and then it just becomes whole other thing where you need to find services to have outlets in and learn and explore in at least four things well thank you. That was that was kind of what I feel like this is where this is an edge for growth where people who are you know coming in to do with fresh energy and resources and you know will power and who can actually say wow well there’s got to be a way to to make the make these healing modalities more accessible because it’s some point I think we’ll be able to prove that if you sell people’s sexual issues than every other mental illness just instantly evaporates for is at least a lot easier to manage it could be that means there’s a lot and we totally will get sidetracked on this but I think there’s definitely the other issue of mainstream mental health maybe is not so sex positive so you might happen to be like kinky and you’re going in to see you know what therapist for depression they’re like well obviously you’re depressed because you’re doing the you know wacky things are you want to go to dungeons but meanwhile I was like no no like I’m actually just depressed and it’s a problem I don’t even know how to begin this early to unravel but yeah I like the way he called the boundary sort of are around meaning and what is cuz it’s addressing all these things were talking about so yeah but yeah so the training was over several months and there was an at-home abortion where we had videos and various readings we had to do and we were we had a check in you know you know through a forum and all that kind of stuff so we were kept on task and so we had to like work on ourselves or work fine folks to work on and then later we had a man in in person intensive training where we basically went through all of it we had just done but together in a group and I totally like I’m not doing it justice because we were super embodying like we were consoling touching each other in these various you know with basically within the same containers we would do so sex logical body work is done it is 1 way touch so practitioner touch his client client does not touch the practitioner the practitioner is closed and we use gloves for any genital work so that’s not the same like the work isn’t super intimate because hey you might be naked and guy in touch and also working through concerns are discovering new things about yourself and your pleasure and Regina Simmons and all these different things as compared to like something like a surrogate work it’s it’s less intimate because we’re there as petitioner sort of to be like the vehicle I would say help sort of reframe and reflect and give permission to the folks who come to see us yeah so we would we did this sort of you know several Hands-On sessions every day for like about 2 weeks like super and body like wow and then following that we had to go in fine folks to work on and I think like the main purpose of that and it might have may have changed in the four years since I went through the training I think the structure is basically the same is mainly we want to try to work with clients and also like create like a structure where it’s like multiple sessions over time cuz certainly can get a lot of learning from one session but as much as we want to be like in some gratification like cool I’m fixed or you know the shift might not be after the Quinn sessions so you might need a minimum of three to start seeing different things moving shifting and learning from your body Okay so what were some of the I mean with this sounds it’s funny cuz it sounds like this training is it would be for a lot of people the first time that they’ve engaged in any kind of group sexual activity and Maybe not maybe that’s wrong maybe most people have already come from pretty liberated background but it’s very interesting to me Imagining the what kind of what kind of Transformations were happening just in that that classroom environment I have I can just imagine that some people would be experiencing their own hulings and having explosive Transformations happening just right there and probably what was it what was it like to be in at the Academy of sexual healing with yeah I can I can only really speak to my own experience in that but to see like all the different sorts of bodies definitely ask someone who is fat and has been fat their entire life it’s it was super empowering to see if they’re all different shapes and sizes and you know levels of firmness or not in all these different bodies and guess what they all can experience you know yummy feelings so yeah I might not be maybe like in love with or accepting of the fact that my belly is not you know whatever but hey it’s soft and it feels it is ticklish and all these different like other things I like Jeremih. Myself in any way interested in this washboard abs for all gen I’m not going to wait till like Beavis someone’s arbitrary ideal you know I can be in my body now and I think that was probably the biggest takeaway and that’s not to say that like I don’t have dark days sometimes we’re just like but nothing fits and clothes don’t lay right or just my body is it may be selling the way I’d like it to or pain or whatever but the more I work on this in the more I practice in the more I try to at least be accepting if not loving of my body is a whole then like those dark moments they they become easier to overcome and there’s kind of a shorter shorter up moments and time rather than just constantly spiraling so that’s probably my biggest takeaway cool so then I know it’s a very strict protocol for a lot of these boundaries and a lot of the accountability and the sort of mindset that you want to be approaching a client with do you want to talk a bit about those those boundaries for you keeping projections encounter projections and transference and all these sort of catchphrases of classical therapeutic modalities how how you how that was addressed and also the the Aftercare which is so I think neglected in a lot of just it’s just I feel after care is in across many different modalities it’s it’s neglected in an underemphasized so I’m curious to see how you all doing with that really on top of your game as as a sex illogical bodyworker you’ll call it out from the get-go on particular should know that you’ll have I think many multiple sessions with a client you might call it out and be like hey there might be a little bit of transference and know that this is because we’re in the space but on this is very much about you and your your processing and you’re learning so if I think I should really on your game you’ll just call it out I don’t think I’ve really seen a lot of that in my in my practice and also like I’m I I mean I explain like what what goes on in the boundaries of you know gloves and 1 way touch and bean clothes that’s like always out there and I always talk about consent I always have a consent exercise that is a little more in-depth like it for our first our first Hands-On session but I make sure to point out that yes even though we know you’re here to do this thing and we want to do Hands-On work together you are at twice the entire time I don’t want you to sit there and take it and if something’s I’m comfortable if for whatever reason you need to stop to find the language that works for you if it’s like get your hands off me or you know please can you remove your hands or if you know can you like press harder here or later there or whatever like I want that open communication and I do also do check-in look as we go and I I don’t want this early to be like constantly chattering on the table because then they’re not necessarily sinking in and focusing on what’s going on for them somatically so there’s a this fine balance of checking and seeing like how’s it going so far in like what’s going on for you and you thought or any modifications you might need but also like I really want them to check in on them breathing I want them to be focusing in as being as present as possible also don’t want them to like not being the space I was like Hey Oh I have to do what my laundry later for her it’s a lot of stuff so the way I build it is I will have like a chat before hand and make sure you check in on things you want to work on her different sorts of things we want to do or things a week near totally are off the table for that day and we do the session it’s not always Hands-On by the way like my my stuff is very flexible in that way and folks can also choose to be like fully undressed or or not I had arranged as well cuz I want to meet people where they’re at I don’t want them to come to me like oh wow I’m supposed to be fully nude relaxed okay like we can meet you where you are cuz I don’t want to like traumatize our reach home at has anyone again the whole thing of consent so we do that session and then we have time at the end part 1 is savoring so we let the person just kind of be their hands and I kind of like you know they are like my sweet like holding space for them to marinate for like 5 minutes or so without judgment and hopefully like maybe you think sinking in a different way then when hands are directly on them and then after that we know if we were undressed or whatever we going we chat for when I don’t see how that was how I’m like what what what they may have wanted more or less maybe like the headlight bulb moments you know throughout the about the process yeah so that’s kind of how how my sessions tend to go and it’s it’s kind of difficult to say like all I always do this for always do that I think because every person is different and everything they come to see me with might be different mainly it’s about like definitely like about breasts and and checking on your breathing because so often we don’t we don’t consciously breathe everybody knows I say that on my friend phone down and yeah just like this like practice of noticing also is is super interesting to me and like noticing and not necessarily having to do anything about if it’s like oh hey like what’s going on in your pinky toe okay it’s kind of goofy but it’s right on so then when a person has a session and they get sent on their merry way are there is there like a Aftercare list of things to be aware of family and you instruct them to take B have a journal so they can take notes if things come up if they want to remember afterwards or or any any kind of instructions like what you call it a discharge sheet or whatever they would do at a hospital or something I haven’t had that yet maybe I need to but I kind of just depends on the person maybe they just need more resources because maybe the work we did was fine but maybe they need something else I’m in addition to that so I would give them resources for example if they needed more like what do you call it more of a reciprocal touch or something maybe I prefer them to like a cuddle event because like I’m touching you but you’re just kind of being there and it might not it’s just not exactly the same sort of experience so of classes play we have so many so many resources that we shouldn’t take for granted or they might naturally gravitate towards that but I I I also sometimes they like homework lowercase age cuz I don’t want people to be like for those kind of things so I want people to connect in a way that works for them can ice I would say also that my practice even though I’ve been kind of at this for 4 years is still really new and I haven’t had enough of an experience really to like how to complete exact formula so I’m like super flexible I’m depending on on the person I always leave it open-ended of like you know please reach out to me if you have you no questions or like concerns your freaking out or I’ll try to be as supportive as I can I say that also with my students as well I don’t want people to think like a cool we did this thing for a few hours and now what but so if people take me up on it I’m totally there but I can do Yeah OK Google will another another question would be sweet I think you we touched upon earlier that you wouldn’t necessarily expect that a sex let’s go bodyworker would have a someone in the role not necessarily a nurse practitioner who is officially trained but someone who is there to just be a witness to hold space in a more kind of new-age sense or or receiving her practical sense of making sure there’s water making sure the temperature is you know you don’t have to get up and change the room temperature if the person’s not comfortable or something so is that something that is built into the program or not so much for something that you would hope that you would have eventually and it’s just not it’s cost-prohibitive or that would be super cool. Like teams of people but now it’s all just me and hopefully I don’t have to like get a lien on it with like coconut oil drenched hands or something like still with stuff I try my best in the Hands-On sort those scenarios to have everything within you know I like a quick trip around the table kind of walking distance you know and I think we’ve had to have like a blanket or like a sheet that’s long enough so that we can drape over if someone needs that I recommend wearing socks sometimes that helps with body temperature I mean I think most people are so sadly unfortunately embarrassed and ashamed about being just naked let alone naked and being stimulated so there’s so many barriers to being fully just relaxed and comfortable just being naked let alone like I said being to having everything and it’s been happening but I think in a perfect world it would be more conducive to I guess best medical practices in in in general looking at that model to have there be support staff who you if you have to press an emergency button they come running in you know or if you have to you know if there’s if there’s a Medicus I’ve seen things in the in my non-certified sexological Bodywork practice that can sometimes make you want to push a panic button of some kind so that’s I guess the question would be what if someone said hey can I you know you can even recommend but we’re just explore this save this this notion that if if there were more money if there were more money in the practice or let’s say in your bank account then you could hire staff as part of your practice or you can say something like if you have a trusted friend who you could bring or a partner or somebody who can be there and sign a release form or some some sort of paperwork that you know gives them a bit of an orientation but then they could be the emergent like the live emergency contact in the session with them I mean that seems like maybe a perfect world scenario and like it’s hard because most people they don’t want anyone else to see what they’re about to go through they don’t know what it’s going to be like 2 so there’s that too so just thoughts on on these because we are sometimes we don’t even like if it’s a partner person they might not even the partner may not even know that they’re coming to see me which is the whole sandwich like you know I can’t I don’t want to judge but also it’s like I like and also like that that’s not quite related but this time John told that like if you can’t if your partner in your coming to see me and you can’t really talked about the fact that you’re coming to see me and then suggestions I give you my dear Aliyah till I bringing this up with your partner and they can’t sell seems like I so limited like how I can help you if you can’t no breach that like that divides like I can’t unless I’m going to come home with you and Mike have an intervention and I think people are going to do but I think it would be kind of cool to be able to have like I don’t know even like a like a resource or something where I could be like hey if you’re having this reaction that I could you know I don’t know call in the sex positive whatever EMT I don’t know that is not a thing that any of his every need guy so I don’t really have a good answer for that yeah I was just curious if you if you have fuel that paying you know that that it would be in a perfect world it wouldn’t be so taboo it wouldn’t be so we wouldn’t be so legally limited and so financially limited to do what feels right and I’ll be nice as much as hey why this is important work how do you do it right well you know you really are serious let me let me list everything that could be optimized about it because I think the time will come when people look up to people such as yourself and they want to change the policy and change the you know everything from the laws to the health insurance programs and and all of that and diversion program certainly for perpetrators to get this work done and other types of sexual healing modalities there a lot of victims of trauma and abuse and misuse it’s important to include people who just have never had orgasm especially women during sex or no said I would consider that not necessarily directly a form of abuse that cause that and in all cases but really miss you soooo is another term that kind of expands the the range of what people are dysfunctional sexually about are the causes of it so I just wanted to put that in the sidebar but the question I have is it for the inquiry here is that a lot of this work is being done for victims of abuse and misuse and I don’t know if yet there is a a real massive campaign to Market this work for perpetrators to get treatment and I don’t know if the let me know would like to see a world where people who are doing this work or so disgusted and fed up by the Mount of sexual violation that’s happening in the caseloads that we all have that we actually want to go after the root source and it end and deal with the predators in the perpetrators of all kinds and so proactively Market to them and Market to the criminal psychiatrist in Market to the Social Service nonprofits that are working to rehabilitate and all of those even the even the that the the religious what do you call in The Minister’s that work in the prison so you know I mean it it’s there so many different people who are trying to address the issue of Rehabilitation perpetrators and they don’t even know this kind of work exists I have no idea about it so there’s that potential for people in the field to 22 / actively seek clients you know in that sense as a business strategy of all things if not just out of the compassion for their victims that they work on it is also the potential of there being political pressure to say you don’t get to go back into the general population as a citizen as a sex offender unless you have gone through this type of purging and this is the closest form of a medical sexual sort of exorcism if you will that currently exist and everything else is way out there on the fringes so this could be a real powerful piece and so I’m just wondering now you know having laid out that you know this this sort of this inquiry if have yourself worked on anyone who would self-identify as having harmful parafilias or being a sex offender if whatever kind and if if so with what you have to say about that and if not if you know any colleagues and have that cuz I think that’s really where the research should be done you know so we can go after the root of the problem and not just be you know putting Band-Aids on it one person at a time so that’s my PSA right there if I have I’ve nuts never been something that was disclosed to me by a client so that’d be difficult to stay I do think that this is a valuable segment of where some of this work could go and definitely more needs to be looked into seeing how we could reframe this in a more yeah more of a rehabilitation sort of sort of a context I’m also not familiar with people who are doing this work and not particularly not in looks like a logical Bodywork although that definitely sounds like a valuable thing something in like a corner of my mind that I can’t fully recall is maybe there’s a little bit of research on it and I want to say a friend and colleague of mine doctor DJ WIlliams who is a research director at the center for positive sexuality where I’m a board member and educator has done a bit of a little bit of research at least around totally going to ruin this around like Galaxy Prime something to do with like sexual crimes or something like that I’m not I’m going to try because I’ll totally mess it up but yeah I would definitely encourage folks to look into the Journal of positive sexuality where there’s original research being done around that and that way you can find DJ and his work he’s also an amazing researcher and general I am definitely a little bit out of the loop when it comes to this particular segment of of the broader like sexual healing umbrella but definitely I’d be open to learning more cool thank you for that yeah I’m here just looking for whatever leads and support and yeah broadening the discourse as much as I can and so did for me this this whole podcasts is a ongoing research project so I really value and appreciate everything that you’re sharing and your willingness to open up about these things in it sounds like you’re having a blast and having fun and you’re not but do you have what would be some advice that you have as a practitioner to avoid burnout in to do self-care into just make sure that you’re doing your own spiritual energetic hygiene so that you you can continue to be blasting through this stuff and I’m not sure that I have the answer to that cuz I definitely had been feeling a little bit of burnout particularly we didn’t talk about it but that’s totally fine around like the blogging stuff and like sex for a year if you make them just like I don’t want cuz just bodies and thinking critically about things sometimes I’d rather not but definitely like even acknowledging that you know what we might be sometimes the face of these you know how edgy you know sexuality is this like a g thing and we’re supposed to know this word expert actually really gets under my skin I don’t claim to be an expert cuz like I barely know myself I don’t want to claim to know about other people but I would hope that we could recognize that it’s okay to want to not do this for a little while in like that’s why it’s important to have like other interests and hobbies whatever those are and and not necessarily neglect those along the way you know whether it’s like you know going to the theater or getting your manicure pedicure sort of thing or taking a yoga classes are you no cooking or anything like that it’s important to to stay connected to those other things and you know we also so much in the social media world where everything you know we don’t really take photographs or posts things about the difficult the difficult nest and the rough patches and how tired or how much energy your how much work we know we have or don’t have that goes into the other side of the best of everyone just like happy smiling and body face or whatever is lovely more of that but also there are two sides at least two sides probably way more to all of this is that you know yet is a struggle and it is difficult and I mean just for people in this feel that goes really anything which is you know we get so surrounded by these like you know Stepford Wives clink robot you know everything so happy and perky for a lot of people the world is falling apart and sometimes literally so it’s okay to take a breath and take take a break from social media that something I have not yet done as a millennial true to my you know Millennial nature I need to like be tapped in all the time but yeah I think it’s important it’s like take a step back and like look into the other interests you have in your life and not just be like constantly trying to kill ourselves fruit for this so this is all the things that the industrial capitalist imagine that we would be doing with these well with was with however many more than 40 hours a work week it was when there was no child labor laws and when there is no weekend and when it says they had enriching in it sometimes that you know exhilarating it’s very energy-intensive and so these things and other people’s process and it’s it’s a lot and then you have to go and go with your own like whatever you’re going through possibly it’s just it’s so much and practically because Quality Inn Lake Buena conversations around sexuality and gender and everything are at least at least for me I don’t know it’s like I feel like I’m constantly surrounded by this in one way or another that like I can’t I almost can’t let go down the street and like there’s a billboard that I’m just like a rolling my eyes are you know just like why would you choose to do this and this way again who are the people that you’re not targeting we’re having this thing aren’t you know what how how is this Frame do you know Marketing in like what does it say about ideal bodies are ideal sexuality is very stinky and all that is just it’s just marketing and all bodies are amazing and you know just be where you’re at it makes me just realized we live in a trauma soup you know you can’t open your eyelids you can’t wake up and not be traumatized by million things in one day if you’re having to make a living in this world and you don’t have the the freedom and luxury and privilege to go meditate in the caves in the Himalayas do you know you no longer treats and stuff so yeah we certainly salute you in the work that you’re doing and the leadership that you’re you’re taking on and I really appreciate that we’ve gotten to explore some of these issues and feel like this just opens the door for more people who want to step up and you know you could have interns interns could be the ones who come in and don’t ask for money in her willing to just be apprentices and they could do things like change the temperature in the room for you or for the client and so interns you know get on board let’s do this it’s it’s it’s a worthy cause your website and talk about to again just what you have to offer and how people can connect in any any final closing words that you like to share Vixen. V i x e n n e.com I am at Doctor Vixen on pretty much most of social media I’m happy happy to you know how potential clients I don’t sell take everyone but I’m open to at least find enough people reach out to me and I can refer people out is if it’s not too good to say I’m totally okay with doing that for a sex logical Body Works like one-on-one stuff if you want other I’d rather talk about together but like I have done on classes on squirting no demo so it’s not super edgy but Turnigy which is fine and the focus is not so much on gender but about bodies and how how that can happen I also have I will have planned will plan circles in Los Angeles I’m also bringing a little mini series up to Sacramento again at the end of June so Sacramento peeps get in touch no I’m just happy to connect with folks find me on social media and you know I take pictures of my lattes true and any words I guess maybe people who were inspired by what you’re saying and want to get involved you recommend that they save up and and get him or with the trainings that you did and how would you know or donate to different organizations or just you know believes your tax burden we do Outreach education education and we have a research we have our I think it’s now on our third volume of are peer-reviewed real access journal the journal positive sexuality so we definitely we reach people both locally and globally so it’s just it’s so amazing I love the work that we do what else can I would definitely suggest the people at least look into the psychological Body Work Association cuz I mean I’m just in La I know that there are other workers here but they are all over the world their training is all over the world and then also legalities will vary depending on location so I mean the training a super super valuable even if you plan on never using it in your practice like if you just want to know if you are talk therapist and you know there’s all that those boundary things that you have to be mindful of it could be super valuable to just take it not for the certification but just to add your toolbox yeah so yeah that would be really helpful I think also will thank you so much for your time and just have a wonderful day and we’ll definitely be in touch podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is sustaining and improving the podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been at our trip songs. 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