In this episode I’m joined by Sobey Wing, one of my personal heroes in the global transformational community. He shares his personal journey of initiation and interest in cultural healing with an accent on sexuality and relationships. We then discuss the practical application of approaching this.
Please engage with Sobey and explore the additional resources linked below:
Sobey’s services/Astrology/Ancestral Revitalization/Rites of Passage Design & Consultation
A lover of music who enjoys crafting the perfect set for each occasion favoring events with conscious intention. A traveller of genres. Come join the ride!
Love Sex Intelligence
FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/66350684635/?fref=ts
FB page: https://www.facebook.com/lovesexintelligencecommunity/
Rites of Passage Ceremonies with Sobey
My goal is to support the renewal of rites of passage in places it is lacking
Rain Crowe Teachings
Center for Babaylan Studies/Babaylan Conference September 2016
Full Moon Medicine in Unceded Coast Salish Territories
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin hello dear beloved’s welcome to Township hunt podcast episode number 38 I am joined by SOB Wing here today and we’re going to go on an exploration of his personal journey of Discovery into I would say the sexual shamanic arts and and give us some tips and some insights into the work that he does around initiation so please so if you will give us a bit of your your background narrative and then we’ll get into some of the stuff you’re doing today thank you yeah it’s pleasure to dive into a spot space and discuss some interesting areas hopefully for people listening I’ll give her by way of introduction where I am located on this Earth at this moment I am in the unseeded Coast Salish territories otherwise known as Vancouver BC and my ancestry comes from the pieces of the Philippines as it is known and also from China from what is known as France today as well as Spain I want to start off and just kind of contextualize in a way that feels congruent with my current understanding which Sean is very graduating you know there’s a graduated look at understanding things especially around something that’s close to my my thoughts all the time is around art or Colonial context so when I was naming the location where I am you know I was I was giving a reference to the Colonial context and similarly when we’re using words like Shamanism there is there something to look at there that I I think is important to not you know this anthropological referencing of a other terminology for what is known in different parts of the world by various while so many different names this is something that is is problematic in the sense that it kind of blankets a term for for something that has many different distinctions in the different cultures and when we’re looking at subjects like sexual initiation or initiation in general something that I focused a lot on which we can talk about in this conversation is you know why did we lose initiation rites and Rites of Passage and why is it that we’re not initiated into things like sexuality and adulthood in general in a way that’s is the way that our ancestors did and Soda Springs in that whole thing around colonisation in the fact that in order for society to be set up the way it is today it had to go through the established conditions and set up of societies kinship groups that were structured in and indigenous cultures around the world including European through disrupting and displacing and killing largely women who helped these roles knowledge and initiation and you know that trauma is buried within all of us you know if we want to look at the continuing wave at this wounding continues in our in our world today with all of the disharmony between between people whether you look at it on the gender binary or with you just look at it on the term of terms of disrupted or ended relationships or or or marriages and the way that emotional trauma surfaces in addiction all of those things getting at the root of it is you know to me about is the spiritual healing that is required and if we if we can get into that today that would be really I think an important contribution to this whole world of sexual healing and initiation definitely definitely so it was you want to talk about so do you like history and what got you thinking about all this stuff and breaking out of her free from these Colonial not sure instructions as a person of color you know growing up in a multicultural as it’s called kind of society a group in Toronto which is that in in in what we call Canada and so I I guess in a part of my my experience of being in that in that kind of culture we’re on some level you know our diversity of cultures is embraced but at the same time or two play embedded in and still are you no white supremacist centered culture you know where the the values and the economics and and just the socio-economics favor you know why culture and not in in the way of saying you know European descent based culture and so you know I didn’t have all the understandings of this but what I experienced was just that you know I didn’t really feel like I I I fit in unless I can forms to certain standards and also I grew up in a Roman Catholic Family and for awhile School and so the hetero Norms around sexuality were pretty pronounced and you know at the same time very blank in terms of like what what is therefore I’m having an awareness around sexuality and I’ll bring in this this posturing in the astrological contacts cuz that’s also something that I’m I steep myself in as an astrologer is she not being a Scorpio Sun sexuality in a big part of my identity and understanding of myself is 3. And so without any of that I had to seek other sources of understanding and so quickly you know this is all free internet you know my my searching for self-knowledge definitely included a lot of like you know going through libraries going through bookstores whenever or something on my radar picked up you know around around you know something around sexuality and spirituality I know I just I had that sense that there was a connection there and and so that’s that’s part of it I guess yeah and that would include me of the occult and I will conclude what was you know Neo Shamanism or Neo Tantra all of those things on talk quickly into my my site and this is for lack of having Elders having teachers that are connected to a lineage that I’m connected to so I’ve had to sort of do the circular route of you know Finding what’s out there and I think that’s probably common to so many people and I’m also of the the generation of the Pluto and Libra generation so you know I feel like that’s kind of part of our generational work is also know a lot of us in this generation have not had the strongest success in in Partnership there’s a lot of divorce rates in and just you know not having easy harmonization and this is you know where I think part of that has the word where we’re generation that maybe has to heal some of those those ones that I’ve been talking about and also seek out new ways to approach so this is all so I think how I perhaps started discovering the alternative routes to relationship and which is an ongoing process but I discovered there’s more to life than the monogamous lens and is even more ways to approach monogamy then there is just on a standard you know christian-based kind of understanding would it be right to say that you’ve been involved in search of activism or Community work being a in-service and and taking your own personal study and applying it into the context of organizations or campaigns and and whatnot were you would get to apply this stuff beyond your personal practice and personal relationships and if so what some of the the highlights of that Journey my first my first step into activism that I recall was in Toronto with a group this is again before the internet so you know connecting people was a way of connecting myself to other people so I got involved with a group called hands which is helping after this network during strife and that gave me a Insider look cuz I was delivering these calendars weekly to to the to all the activist that were connected to that Network in Toronto so gave me a window into what was going on on multiple levels of activism at the same time I was I had dropped out of regular high school and entered into an alternative school called some seed alternative which was sort of the flagship has been the flagship of alternative schools in Toronto and not really influence my philosophy of of learning to the stay a credit thought that experience where we looked at education as a school Without Walls you know that learning occurs where it went where it happens even if you’re learning while you’re sleeping in a dream for instance that counts as knowledge that we can and not that really inspired me to bring that framework I’m into alternative settings and that could include for sure Rave culture which is now become Festival culture and I I think also that I love dancing and I saw that there was you know some form of community that could shape itself there when I when I began it it was really kind of a fledgling kind of sense of community around dance culture but I was exposed to an event where ritual and and dancing was brought together and Equinox and it was led by a I wish you had a curandera family lineage so she was confusing all of these elements and it just took it took God took my psyche by I am you know what really got me really inspired and I look at you know how I gone from there and I you know I helped certified bring this this connection between learning and and dance culture together I’m in a way which seems very normalize now but at the time you know I don’t I don’t think there was any of that happening and it’s it’s something where we don’t have to conform to as many rules you know when it comes to doing what we want to do that you would see in the institutions so I see it as a working within the margins workshops and you do teachings in and trainings in presentations throughout the world do you want to talk a bit about what you since you were kind of initiated in that way to Sacred dance music and intentional Sacred Space design and ceremony ritual design in your own expressions yeah you know I think again with my my kind of rearing and alternative education through your seed I really got the gist of how you know if you want to learn something a great way to do it is to group together other people who are interested in learning the same thing and so you know even right now I owe I don’t claim myself to be any kind of expert but I am adapt and Creative Learning environments and learning Ben Cardin part of learning networks has become sort of my staple so as my I remember one of my first workshops that I led was with a graduating body of friends from seed who went on a our own self created right of passage on to the east coast and and habitat Schoolhouse a historic Schoolhouse that had been the domain of various artists and writers in the posturing 70s that was already kind of reverberating with the creative Energies and I was inspired to do a workshop on creating ritual and so that was my very first workshop and then you know I was really inspired by the work of Antero Alli who wrote Angel Tech of modern shamans God’s reality selection you know and if so that was you know kind of a something that I felt could be really conducive to the Rave culture you know that I think we were really not able to access that kind of language and also the 8th circuit model of intelligence know to fuel Erie and so that was something that we incorporated into our dance Community early on with something called Sunday school which result that you know kind of like a a play on the religious use of that term and kind of over over covering that with you know our own version of like reclaiming our own identities spiritually and you know with our own knowledge that we want to bring in and a lot of things kind of seem to emerge out of that I like a lot of people have participated in that began to take on their own path as teachers whether it be sacred dance or harm reduction things like that and and harm reduction speaking of that it’s something that also kind of pertains to this discussion because in our dad’s, Community which was you know suffering under the weight of a lot of addiction and time and people that were you know masking trauma with with drug use in the Rave culture it was a I think a important response that was made to identify that having tools with how to provide education and awareness around safer use of the substances from harm reduction philosophy which goes along with you no safer sex practices that are on now part of that. Kind of culture also kind of lets you more openings for people to talk openly about their relationships and sexuality and so that was kind of the the birthplace for what we now are doing in our local community called love sex intelligence was the sun groupings of friends in our houses and just creating these discussion circles where we could openly share some of our upper process around navigating relationship and non-traditional ways and that’s when we started also bringing other people who might you know share some modalities used to help us improve our communication or learn something more about working with sexuality and that started to spread into Gatherings until Retreats into and into festivals and that’s all as he say it has some has traveled to other other parts of the world it’s not not the only thing I’ve had focused on so some of my quibble travels have focused on other areas but but I have done a love sex intelligence Workshop in Australia for instance it’s just amazing to to see how what empowers us here has you know impaired people there as well assume so that do you feel pretty well cut up to the present moment as far as the the life history and background and then if so we can go into some of the tips and practical how to do stuff sure you’ve sure okay cool will get a thank you again that that was beautiful Journey that I got to to go on with you there and it’s a I have similar you know to put in a couple of bits in my own background I I I spent most of my you know coming-of-age years and you know from I guess about 12 to 33 the house about 20 years FM seeking being a Seeker but experiencing initiations through the DIY punk rock and Uncle punk in metal grindcore World which has disliked deep tension of striving towards holism and healing and empowerment yet having very very unexamined Shadow especially through just extreme mostly alcoholism and in an access and and then just look at my personal Evolution from going from the mosh pit to the psytrance dance for experience and looking at the deformed geometry of people who are wasted and unconscious and just smashing into each other to to the shark the stark contrast the people who are not everybody and of course it has its shadow to but from you is night and day to go into the psytrance you know world and be like wow there is energy that’s circulating here with the Psychedelic medicines in the plant medicine is where people are not just bumping into each other wasted they’re actually creating sacred geometrical forms and surrendering to this Divine Shakti kind of healing energy and it’s creating a much more uplifting vibration that I could very much see how it identify was so I’m kind of a but that’s just for me just within the last few years so I got a lot of catching up to do to the people who’ve been in that world for much longer and I just want to thank you cuz if you’re you know yeah it sounds like you were part of the lineage that has brought this salvation into MiFi thank you for that and give you that little bit of back of myself but so moving into the something that you you do some some work if I understand correctly some of your professional livelihood work is is education sexual sexuality education and bringing some of these initiatory technologies that you’ve discovered into that world so could you talk a bit about what you do in that in that says space yeah okay so when we talk about you know professional or I don’t know like you know what we’d get you know how to identify the work that we do or place its values at what we get paid to do chores what we do just without being asked to get paid enough so a lot of this work I would say is you know by nature of what it is as in as I was saying before as in the marginalized safe spaces that are created through other things like Gatherings that are already happening you know I don’t have to go through that hole you know system knots wooden props judge some of these things so I think there’s kind of a harkening back to the way it was in that this kind of knowledge was safeguarded after contacts you know like a lot of the indigenous healing Traditions or however we want to call it you know how to be a sort underground and so I I say that’s kind of reflected in how we how I approached this kind of thing even though you know today will will will post the events publicly on Facebook and things like that there is still a ring to it that is about you know not waiting for us to be given our our approval by by Society you know we just know that it’s important so we do this and and so like I’ve been doing this constantly one of my goals that I set out of certain point was that at least you know once a year there would be a community gathering around love sex intelligence and the rest of the time you know we haven’t online for him but very important for that hole project has been and which we’ve stepped it up in the recent months to make sure that hopefully like every month we can do something is to to say that the community around learning about how to how to harmonise our relationships how to defend our sexuality into something that is you know how uplifting our spiritual path is something that needs to be done you know with with with more support and so that’s why it’s it can’t just functioning online capacity so that’s something I’ve committed to we have we’ve been actually our next event is focusing squarely on sexual initiation I’m pink resented by someone named ya Lila Espinoza is looking at how to tweeze mower practices that she learned in Peru you know have informed around healing and and then creating her own initiation but yeah I also you know as an astrologer I work with people and often it is around relating I’ve done a little bit of like you know support for people I think what happens is you know when when you become a central figure in any given Community people will come to you when they’re in crisis and this is what has informed my my the work that I do around you know Rites of Passage is responding to crisis from a place that seeks to get to the root of what is causing the crisis which in so many cases is that there is a lack of of support and people therefore will resort to self initiation just something I’ve had to do in my own life and and see it so much the case for some of the other people and there’s another psychological shifts that occur when people an emotional shift that occur when people feel a sense that they’re being held that they are being that they can fit they can let go and have a safe space to go into those wounds and begin working on them and of course it would help if we had a little more guidance and how to do that but thought comes over over time you know we have to work from where we’re at and so that’s something that I’ve been in in the my own process of of my own work around here figuring what those things are with those tools are and Tom yeah like I said I’m not an expert but I can at least Point people in some directions I guess what we’re looking at here is that there’s an underground space very intentional underground space that is more conducive to kind of freestyling or rolling your own ceremony and just holding the light and and letting those who it call who are called to it you know it would become integrated into keep it at the gala Therrien and flowing so that you don’t have cult of personality and politics and all of the scenester Hipster things coming in and that’s always up in it and he has to be on guard against and whatnot so I see there’s that unfoldment in that development and then there’s people who are also working like stay in the social work field who are informing their peers and colleagues in those sectors with these Neo shamanic techniques or nonviolent communication or your where it’s legal and accessible and permissible you know legally again to be able to put people on amor I guess like prisons prison you Lila has a very and I’ve done some I interviewed her in the past and I’m a big fan of what she’s doing and I know she has a strong background in clinical social work and is feeding back into that sector the wisdom of of the Amazon and and Beyond and so is that something that you have I just thought I remember reading somewhere you know or talk to you at some point about how this is this is like you could be hired by the more formal above ground and sectors of social work or Community work with where you can be brought in to bring some of the stuff that would normally be or I guess it’s just that it’s a very interesting Cutting Edge of an intersection and I if I’m not mistaken that’s that you you are like sort of partially in that world 2 of of social work or is that something I understand correctly yeah I’ll I will string this conversation back and see where where I where I am placed social work as well as all the modalities of counseling and healing you know like they are all part and parcel to supporting and upholding status quo capitalist system so I’m going to like you know like you know also haven’t been in the punk scene also had a big enough impact on my my party now 13 m in terms of healing these wounds we have to look at that and I we can’t we can’t say like that are healing is going to be independent of the world that is reeling and suffering from the continuation of this system as it is and so that’s where for me like bringing capitalism into the equation is is something that’s real tricky it’s something that I feel needs to be kind of understood. You know we we can’t just rely on having sting services that we can pay for because that creates a gap you know where some people are going to have accessible abilities to to the healing and others won’t and that’s that’s not healthy for anyone and and also that it doesn’t address the root cause of why we need social workers to begin with and why we need counseling and all of that so I really like the notion of cultural healing that’s where more where I would be comfortable in any way kind of looking at myself as any kind of healer I don’t think we we can really heal individuals that’s really something that you know a person will need to and it’s not like they can be facilitated to do their own healing work but nobody can fix us we have to fix ourselves that’s that’s more I think a more powerful Paradigm to be apart of but you know I I I have worked in the realm of I focused therapy and you know I have spent quite a bit of time around the spirit plant medicines and seeing how the plant medicines have assisted and I do I do continue continuously work to increase my knowledge and wisdom around working with us plants and and that also brings us back into that hole realm of discussion around you know ancestors and working with them or perhaps that’s something we haven’t really touched upon but maybe she said it’s just that in any form of healing that we do I guess for me the important thing that I really try to bring into whatever I do connecting back with her ancestors and healing the trauma of how we were disconnected from those ancestors and how that plays out in any kind of sexual wounds or emotional wounds that we carry and so that’s something that I I I feel like the role of initiation and ritual can can really do and that’s that’s been its Province ever since people began doing patrols I think it’s to build upon the legacy of their ancestors and to draw and their their help and support cool said that yeah thank you for helping me understand the other parameters a little better and and 100% there with you I have I have been because I live in the United States where there’s different laws around no prostitution in in how that affects the healing with sexual touch and pleasure as medicine and stuff like that is a lot more yes I understand in in Canada there’s there’s a lot more interesting legal space in order to do Hands-On Sexual Healing work relative to the US where it’s completely off limits in so I because of that adapting to that reality and also is a permaculture designer myself I have to think very deeply about how to navigate this issue of for-profit healing work that kind of in most sectors is about like you said I’ll put in my own words it’s like they want to know if if the if you’re at a time of time robot that supposed to be producing a set amount to be a productive member of the of the GDP then then if you’re not functioning properly than the the goal of the mainstream social work or psychotherapeutic or psychiatric Fields they’re trying to get you back into the rat race as soon as possible and they’ll do that with drugs with talk therapy or whatever that is about avoiding through tissue which is the disconnection from urethane from a healthy holistic wild habitat you know a night as a primitivist I see that you know the solution to your Neurosis is to retry belies and Get Growing your own food again in and rebuild that fabric so you know there with you on that tension about right livelihood in and taking money for healing and what is he doing so I really like what you said and that just is going to it’s going to help me a lot looking at healing the cultural level and healing the if I’m understanding right and I’ll put a couple my own words on it but I feel like we’re trying to build the scaffolding or were trying to design the context for people to take the responsibility of a personal healing and gone to that journey and so if you if what would you say are some practical skills are tools from all of your things that you would teaching and training and a things that you discovered in your own journey to where you’re in power tools for empowerment that you suggest or are resources that you suggest people Explorer to if they’re called to do the cultural healing work weather for profit or non-profit. Some dance between the two or it and then what what are some recommendations for people who are on their own path and aren’t necessarily called to do the the cultural healing yeah I mean it’s it’s a pretty vast subject that one but I think that a few points that I could think about and talk about our that I’m going to this idea of bringing you back in the station rights and recognizing that in the absence of them what do we have you know we are we are sadly in there without initiated Elders so many of us and if there are any of Elders that hold that ability to to guide those those ones are those are worth their weight in gold you know there really is people that we should try to lift up and and give them their recognition and see you know and then in the absence of that it’s like we kind of by default Our Generations people that will have to hopefully fulfill that and reach a place where we can actually help upcoming generations to go in a way that they don’t have to completely go it alone and and figure it out on them on their own the way that so many of us have had to and so there is a movement around Rites of Passage I sit on the board if you passageways which is a network that focus is squarely on you no Rites of Passage for you coming of age from all different walks and and and modalities you know some of them are our Boys to Men oriented some of them are girls to women some of them are starting to incorporate non gender binary kind of approaches as well which is good and and this whole focus on bringing back the ancestors into looking at Rites of Passage is is starting to happen and something that I focused on and so that’s that’s a resource you know people can go to youth passageways. Oregon and look at what programs are out there and they can also think about how they can add to that list and bring in things that are needed around especially around sexuality and relationship which is often I noticed kind of a big gap in a lot of programs out there you know because they’re confined confined or constrained by the conservative values where they take place and you know what school system is you know this is one of those places lagging for that kind of thing so it’s a role that I think that many people who understand the need can step into and cultivate as career paths you know and some people are pig figuring out how they can weave their credentials says on Sexual Health Educators or sexual therapist or sexual trauma or no trauma-based therapists you know into this realm of initiation and that’s that needs to happen on a on an increased level the other I see a lot of because of what I was saying around looks really don’t how many Avenues to learn other than through you know what the books in the workshops and offerings around sexuality thoughts unfortunately are not rooted in in people’s only need two lineages generally speaking you know so the whole Tantra movement is pretty much so you know a cultural appropriator of New Age fight version of those Traditions that would have been squashed by Christianity especially and so I think there’s work to be done there and as much as possible Retreat retrieving reconstructing are reconnecting with our own ancestral Traditions which I’m sure you know had their own knowledge wisdom around how to how to raise healthy harmonious individuals with healthy sexualities from from the vantage point of how what little I do know has been has been done in indigenous cultures and without wanting to appropriate for them from them I’ll just give way of examples out of that you know in and certain cultures that are studied like the Mayan culture and I think to some degree on certain places within Creek culture there’s examples of how as societies you know that the children are raised from an early age 2 reach a point where they understand how to how to harmonize with the other sex and how to to look after each other and that’s just a very basic principle that I feel like you know that’s that’s worth kind of learning how to integrate into our family structures if we have children that were raising just to keep in mind that you know there is a need for them to learn skills around things like consent and around being responsible with with one’s sexual energies and and I needs to start before they reach that age of adolescence where they’re just harder to connect with if you haven’t built up that Foundation so that’s something that I think about will do you so if I if if we check out that the organization that you mention is it would that be good place to find and something like a more enlightened or more conscious like sexual education curriculum or guidebook do you know if people were working on something like that so if I know if you know parents who were going through the puberty of their child that they have something that’s not just this cold clinical Western and even though that sort of evolving a little bit you know with things like a sack didn’t and whatnot I see a lot but the The ancestral wisdom and you know the ceremonial Rites of Passage you know how does it how does the Modern Family say okay well you’re about to start feeling you know hormonal Energy’s how do we give you know create even if it’s just within their family or their Community yoga or whatever is something more than what’s being offered in the normal sex ed or what they’re listening in gangster rap music and watching on sitcoms obviously you know it’s enough for lack of lot of alternative options it’s one one place to look and we’re always looking for others so whenever we discover something then we will see to auditory resources and we are trying to vet those resources and those organizations to make sure that they really are you know at least there’s some some level of you know safe recommendation that we can give for those those organizations we’re not we’re not in the position to really kind of completely you know set standards but we are trying to we have a code of what we call it a cross-cultural protocol so we do look at that aspect that you have for what we’re talking about that’s you know if that’s another layer that we will hopefully get to eventually and I do know that there are people within our Network who are really strongly focused on this particularly around girls to women kind of education and and Rites of Passage and some of the Boys to Men once but I think it’s also something we need to to enhance as well oh that’s great yeah that’s that’s that’s what I wanted to hear so that I can just refer people to this ongoing and so and then the LSI is kind of its there’s a Facebook I’ve been interacting with the the Facebook group for a while so is that something you recommend people plug-in I mean that’s the goal of that is to feature blogs and generate discussions from those blogs and also to establish a resource of services as well as information and so that’s you know running on in a very limited volunteer capacity and so you know it’s something that I hope will eventually become a very powerful resource but already it’s you know it’s been feedback that I’ve received that you know even just the the group that we have on Facebook somebody posted recently. You know it’s really help them in their in their path which is nice to hear and I’ve heard that a few times and I try to curate that group in such a way where it’s like you know it’s trying to generate discussion and it’s it’s trying to be a safe space where where people can get into some of those I’m intimate revealing is of what what’s going on in their lives one of the things that kind of came out of love sex intelligence local as a connection with Tamara and the love school that they have which is a very congruence philosophy to love sex intelligence and they’re their work to try to create or with to create safe spaces for people to to share stories of what’s going on in their intimate lover sexual lives and and B witnessed in a way that is non-judgemental where they’re not being flooded with advice but more just being witnessed which is kind of connected to that whole framework for Rites of Passage itm witnessing each other and so it’s it’s trying to also look at how you know communities can succeed in their in their goals which might include you know like being more sustainable or being an alternative to the systems around us and also being a part of a more peaceful kind of culture through filling this hole that is often where things go wrong where people are are are not feeling safe to talk about these these human experiences around wounding around are our hearts and our sexuality so I’ve been part of a Practice Group here that has been circulating also to other parts of BC and I think it’s a really it’s a really powerful movement to be a part of yeah we’re getting close to an hour or so I have to take a few more minutes and I’m get a couple thoughts and feelings some responsible for 1 something that his is coming up for me that I think it’s really empowering is this like idea that wouldn’t it be nice if some of us started to think of ourselves as aspiring Elders I’ve never thought of it that way until this conversation and there’s a little spark of joy and me that that says you know puts in context the the punk rock lifestyle that I had of live fast Die Young and just you know if it’s not throwing yourself into the meat grinder of insurrectionary activism you know with this sort of Death Wish you know this martyr complex or whatever it’s like those are really unsustainable archetypes to follow and they leave a lot of people when they get to my age in about 35 like in a sort of existential crisis that will the revolution didn’t happen and I didn’t get killed I didn’t die in the gutter you know I mean what am I going to do now and it’s like well maybe it’s time to become an aspiring Elder and you know clean up your act and and then start to think about how you’re going to make it easier cuz I there’s a lot of things that I had to go through that I would seriously love to have no one else ever have to go through and if you know if we can live in that. you know that is what you’re supposed to think that I think of you say you know you can you can learn from the wisdom of Elders who have gone through and made the mistakes that you’re probably going to go through or you can just be hard-headed and learn all your lessons the hard way but I mean we’ve had to learn a lot of hard lessons in the absence of the eldership but I think if we take on that there’s a yeah me too. It seems obvious but really the way you put it his medicine for me to think you know it’s a dignified path to be an aspiring Elder and then it makes you not be so how do I can help you defeat that that that grinding pressure that oh my I’m going to lose my looks and I’m going to lose my energy and I’m going to be in the state of deprecation towards death and that’s very much the greatest fear of the western manicured Uno photoshopped airbrushed identity like you’re not really giving any hope that aging will be of any benefit in here just marginalized further and further so I thank you for that serve very much still give that time sacred eldership dignity not a light title to hold I think the true Elder wouldn’t really feel comfortable in it cuz it’s defining attributes of an elder that is really one that can help that role be the best it can be is one that is is really accountable is really present isn’t so on the move that if you can’t you know be relied upon to be there for the people that it serves now needs to ideally be in the in the fellowship of other Elders to kind of keep it in in in check in a way like we have to watch for the Cole group kind of phenomenon where people you know place a lot of weight on that person and in a way that can privilege them in certain ways and also lead to potential like power distortions and things like that you know it’s it’s only human that people will make mistakes and so having that kind of accountability of other people and also that time yeah you have people heart or a different there’s always like in every phase of life with the lifecycle there’s there’s like the maturing phases and so there’s like you know there’s a baby elder there’s enough adult Elder and then Senior Elder and so it’s just we have to learn at each stage of Life how to become the mature version of what that stage is and says just something to think about as well and it’s good to to get your feet wet early on in life so that you know we can have deep roots and and the and those are the kinds of people to like in the Tamara situation out of the black community they have a circle of Elders who are basically people who have grown with a community enough that they know the people in their community and then they serve a role as potential kind of like the Matchmaker but you know in a way where people can approach them in and ask them like you know I’m interested in this person and they can help you assess whether this is the right time or what is a good or bad idea and you know they can kind of that. Whole courtship in a way that you know really I think I wish there were more of those people around here don’t you let me relax you know learn the hard way what does that we’re just not compatible certain people in The Matrix the I mean yeah I’m not I’m not a political scientist of the Matrix but I will say that what got me peaked on the ecstatic trance dance group ritual ceremony festival thing was it really when I saw I think it was maybe the second movie or maybe it was the second or the third but there was a scene where they’re just getting down to like Juno Reactor I think was a soundtrack of a butt there is something beautiful about seeing the different the warrior culture Guided by elders and of course there’s different the archetypes playing out in Conflict split that to me was took it further than then the Star Trek Federation is a futuristic Elder guided Council guided kind of reality so that was kind of fun but yeah so that’s what came to mind when you’re at we’re talking about that be so cool if you’re early sexual oracle’s who you go to you know if we’re going to give you insights and maybe even have name your child for you or something cool like that you know be so cool but right on then will I worry about at the hours so do you have any closing touch you want to share or any other resources or should we just I’ll post the the links that you mention and I’ll definitely encourage people to stay informed and keep an eye out for your anything coming up you have any appearances or anything exciting like that coming up you want to mention I think yeah I think I covered a lot of it and I just wanted to maybe plant a seed while I have the airwaves here about something that I’d I’d eventually like to work on presenting which is around insert Intercultural relationships and also decolonizing our relationships as well and just thinking about how how we can heal some of these ancestral traumas and use that has as as a means to strengthen our relationships and also our society right on I’ll be looking forward to everything that you’re you’re expressing in the world and I hopefully yeah maybe sometime in the future we can talk about skill sets for Beyond Christian monogamy that would be a great topic so yeah how would you feel about that maybe we can sometime in the next few months follow up with something like that. Maybe by the by the time I’ll have more of a personal lived experience to a base conversation around that I think you know in terms of people who are already I don’t know how many listeners here are on a Christian spiritual path without that many but if the energy and gnosticism and sacred marriage not going to the alchemical top in the in the Gnostic tradition but I I wouldn’t make any claims to be an expert in that area but it’s definitely something to look at cool alright then we will be in touch and will follow up sometime in the future and thank you so much so be I really enjoyed it and I know it’s taking us a while to get this to get this done but I think it was perfect and I couldn’t ask for anything more so you have a wonderful day. Take care and keep for listening to the touch upon podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is to see me and if you want a podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been at Contra Punk. Com Thomas Day