In this episode I’m joined by a passionate advocate and activist for sex workers’ rights. Dave in Phoenix has been on the front lines of the prostitution decriminalization movement for a long time and has great insights to share about the Phoenix Goddess Temple case and much more.
Please visit his website at:
- the story of liberated christians
- swing conventions in the 90s
- “onward christian swingers” new times
- the issue of single men in poly/swinger groups and the argument for sex workers
- the history of the Phoenix Goddess Temple
- Dave’s views on sexuality, religion, and law
- the need for legal healing, massage, and touch
- concerned about prostitution laws
- “felony criminal enterprise” much higher
crime than just prostitution which is just
- testing the viability suggested donation vs. a fee arrangement for a sex act
- historical overview of Canadian prostitution laws
- in-private consenting adult sex work vs
- beyond the myth that all prostitutes are forced into it
- how escort agencies bend the law
- harm reduction
- Canadian charter of rights and freedoms
- in current U.S. legal climate, escorts being assaulted by bag clients can’t help each other and are more afraid of the policy than bad clients
- challenge to California prostitution laws
- Sex Workers Outreach Project
- Alternative funding models for sex “volunteers”
- the grey area of sugar daddies and friends with benefits
- the potential and precedents for a club/membership model
- the commonality of prostitution in the times of the bible
- patriarchal double standards of adultery
- thoughts on bonobos and the myth of monogamy
- my prayers for Tracy who I interviewed in this episode: https://tantrapunk.com/taking-a-stand-for-sacred-sexuality-with-tracy-elise-tpp36
I come from a very conservative background. 20+ years ago I was very active in evangelical, conservative ministries, including Bible Study Fellowship, Christian Business Men’s Committee, as well as serving as deacon in a conservative Presbyterian Church. For many years I believed in the inerrant word of God–God said it and that settles it.
But I met a couple where both husband and wife were going to Lutheran Theological Seminary to be ministers. They started pointing out how in Hebrew and Greek there were obvious contradictions in scripture and some things I thought were crystal clear were quite foggy. Being interested in supporting my conservative beliefs concerning sexuality, I set out to do more research to prove my position correct that sex was wrong unless you were married and then only with your wife. I read many books by theologians and those that were experts in Greek and Hebrew and slowly, over time, I found the evidence was overwhelming that I had been very wrong in my traditional beliefs. I became very upset that the church would mistranslate and misapply the bible to promote an agenda, which was not based on the original biblical texts.
In the mid 1980’s I attended many Stan Dale’s Human Awareness Institute’s “Sex, Love and Intimacy” workshops in Calif., where I learned and experienced the group dynamics of true love, intimacy and fulfilling sexuality far beyond just thrusting intercourse. While these groups were often closer to New Age type beliefs, I saw more Christ like love than what I had ever experienced in the traditional church. Too often the church is too busy reaching UP to God to reach OUT to each other. There are more people in the world starving for love and affection than starving for food, but when it comes to meaningful intimate interaction, the church is too often “God’s Frozen People.”
In my childhood I was very shy. I was scared of women and didn’t date till I was a senior in college. I never went to a dance. But gradually I became more outgoing and married. But more than 20 years ago, after being resingled, I was insecure and depressed. Many women reacted negatively to me, sensing neediness and insecurity. But slowly, over time, after experience the Stan Dale workshops, some sex surrogacy training, Esalen massage training and lots of G-spot massage experience I found women strangely attracted to me…especially once they started to experience my touch. For many years I thought all men were naturally, wonderfully intimate and I was just far behind. But so many women started telling me they had seldom experienced men with good touch and intimacy skills and I began to wonder why. I have concluded that many men want to be more intimate but haven’t learned how.
Example: A couple had me do Esalen massage on the women. After a while the man came upstairs to see how we were doing and got turned on seeing his nude girlfriend on my table. He jumped in wanting to be sexual with her. As he was poking and groping her body parts he asked how things were going. She replied “Great until you came up”. Sometimes honest communications can be embarrassing but he did get the message that at that time she wanted the intimacy of massage not poking and groping.
On the other hand, not everyone is going to become interested in real intimacy. Being intimate is much more threatening and difficult for many than just having recreational sex with strangers. But for me I don’t enjoy sex without intimacy, but often enjoy intimacy even without sex. My purpose is to show the various sexual intimacy options so people can relate to whatever they choose is most fulfilling for them.
I enjoy physical intimacy with a wide variety of women who also enjoy good touch, cuddling, massage, caressing etc. I have lots of ideas for more intimacy based on many years of teaching intimacy workshops for couples, counseling many couples as well as hearing from a huge number of men that are seeking more intimacy from sex workers. I have been a speaker at national swing conventions hosted massage rooms and led the Phoenix Couples Group that had 350 participants. I have been professionally trained and teach Esalen massage, which many women have enjoyed. I offer free massage to sex workers/dancers/massage therapists. Or, I offer what I call a non-sexual cuddle and caress experience so many women enjoy. Yes, I also enjoy sex but not “just sex” without intimacy with the great sex.
One of the problems I face in dating many “normal” women is that as one said, “I am looking for a man who values monogamy as much as I do.” The problem is they only see cheating as the alternative to monogamy. But because I have such different views, finding like minded single women is very hard. Obviously sex workers often face the same issues in their own personal relationships.
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin podcast episode number 165 I’m being joined by Dave in Phoenix who is has a very interesting and very important role in my life and in the development of what’s becoming kind of a character which is this Township Punk this is sort of my my self-proclaimed super heroic Persona and it really was birthed to be very deeply honest this this this passion and this energy for sexual education sexuality education and sexual freedom in the rights to be a dignified sex worker and sexual healer all of these passions came really from my disgust and outraged when I first heard about what happened at the Phoenix goddess Temple and that invigorated me to because I saw an absence of a really solid movement within Tantra even though I had been a practitioner and a student and was kind of developing my skill sets and my credibility to have a practice and to operate in that field and I had some back on and I have really assumed there was a much stronger and a much more radical and much more proactive in in even revolutionary kind of solidarity movement within Tantra and when I discovered the what happened with the Phoenix goddess temple with Tracy at least it was really heartbreaking for me to feel like there wasn’t a strong sense of a movement like the way that the Black Panthers and the American Indian movement and civil rights movement and the gay rights movement and so many other movements that have had solidarity with political prisoners and with persecuted persecuted locations or or localities that there was a mycelial network of support that I was used to coming from that background and radical movements and I felt like it was severely lacking in this case and I don’t know all the facts and I wasn’t there and I can’t from my own personal experience make any any reasonable claims about the facts of the case all I can say is that I felt that the response was abysmal and very very few people seem to be keeping a breast with the proceedings of Tracy’s case and before the trial and end in after the trial and one of those few people who is here to talk about his perspective in his background that’s that’s Dave and he’s one of the few people that I have a very remote connection with just a just a lot of adoration for the work that he’s done and if you’ve never heard of the things got his Temple or Tracy at least please hang in there were about to get a full dose of the story on but first I want to just say thank you for hearing me out Dave to get caught up to speed and where I’m coming from and why I appreciate what you’ve done so much and and just say please do share with us here as much as you can or would like to about your personal background and what makes you a a very passionate delegate and well I guess the advocate is probably better word for the sex workers rights movement in general very good then I come from sort of a very different background but we kind of wind up in the same place at least in Broad broad generalities I was regionally in my childhood very shy kid scared to death of women that they tell I was a junior in college then people kind of say I might have made up for lost time I was also very conservative Christian Evangelical Christian Church I was a counselor for the Billy Graham crusade I originally grew up in Minneapolis which was the headquarters of the Billy Graham Association I was also very active and very fundamentalist Christian groups Bible Study Fellowship Christian business men’s can a very repressed sexually in with women and everything then I gradually grew I think my first life changing experiences were series of workshops over a number of years who founded by Standale human awareness Institute out of San Francisco with workshops at Harbin Hot Springs Resort in Northern California very powerful combined with sexuality in different forms very well done over the years I went many numbers of times I also once again in a relationship and brought a woman there that had a very powerful life-changing positive experience so that kind of made me get into the opposite of what I was as a child very outgoing or so I’ve always been interested in the intimacy aspects of of sensuality notches the the the sexuality so then I have to after that I moved to Phoenix and I started exploring with the biblical aspects of sex of sexuality I’m very analytical person I can came from the CPA background so I don’t believe just what people tell me I kind of have to examine for myself and started doing a lot of Bible study on the sexuality issues and found that at the conservative this really didn’t have any biblical basis I mean back in biblical times man could have as many wives and concubines as he wanted adultery was a violation of man’s in husband’s sexual physical rights over his women in all sorts of things then I met another Christian it was following the same path of the traffic came from a clothing-optional group in Los Angeles who wound up being here in Phoenix and we got together and says Jesus is a lot of Christians out there that are guilt-ridden everything about their sexuality was maybe they don’t really need to be and we formed a group called liberated Christians still have the website low price., though I haven’t upgraded it for many years we also been contacted by the lifestyle organization the national Swing Swing organization and did a bunch of presentations at the national Lifestyles convention I will probably in the 90s sometime at this point then we were picked up by a local newspaper called new times I had we were on the front page and headline I just looked it up still in the internet up the article on the front page headline find word Christian swingers looking for God in all the wrong places try this Sunday meeting and one of my favorites sentences in the article was this group’s introductory literature may be the only publication on Earth will you find the phrase Old Testament and vibrating nipple clamps on the same page typically swing group polyamory but not extreme living together and that’s for a thing after that article came out in New Times which had somehow they found her phone number buy some links to our website and that sort of thing and we had like a hundred phone calls from single guys as well as of a couple we have 350 people at one point in the couple’s group was a phoenix couples liberated Christians group and 10 question became what do we do with all these single guys because couples for good reasons want to be with other couples and that first got me interested in sex work area as a practical solution perhaps effect I had one Asian guy I remember distinctly calling me from college he says he’s never had sex before and he wanted to have his first experience with someone that knew what they were doing and they have led to the sex sex work area that I became interested in as a viable profession of helping people. Just just pure sexuality anyway years went by for years I had a phoenix private list with about a thousand people are on at the network with various escorts and in Phoenix and and other people and Tracy somehow contacted me and got on the list she started sharing with me some of her and her interest and experiences and wanted to form the Phoenix goddess Temple and even though I am not I’ve got a follower of Tantra in the religious sense I’m basically opened all religious beliefs I think there’s different paths to God and everything so I wasn’t really interested in the in the goddess you should totally supportive of what she was trying to do with healing people in the size and touching and all those other things but I was concerned about the prostitution laws and Warner you can’t just claim to be a religion and the First Amendment freedom of religion does a prostitution laws without going into a recession operated for number of years Polly had a had to change one location because of zoning and then wound up in the night sky Phoenix temple place they ultimately wound up with then they were rated and by the police 39 wonderful lemon lift Tracy prior to the arrest and then seeing her import exchange lots of emails over the years discussing various issues in the legal issues around what she was doing I met her once interesting lie cuz I met a gal there from the Christian background father was a minister in another country so we were interested in that aspect she also knew about the and that’s why we had a great time Burly got his kind of kind of session so then 39 people were arrested in the big raid 1 convince them they were they drop their and then dilated I think 38 wound up being indicted one was a cleaning lady that had nothing to do with anything anything else going on and the pre-trial process with with a very long time she was originally rested and I had one indictment with a million-dollar Bond as if you were a murderer then there was a second indictment which at one point had didn’t cancel the first behind so she had a two million-dollar bond for a while until the six six eating indictment replace the original document anyway long story of your process of the courts and all the pulmonary stuff they were threatened with the 40-50 years in prison if they didn’t plead guilty they did that because you got up to those kinds of terms because and it was a felony criminal Enterprise which is a much higher level of prosecution than just crossed a higher level of crime and just prostitution which is a misdemeanor but they often did that in Phoenix so they had criminal Enterprise and then every time they control money exchanging it was a felony laundry charge so they piled on all the charges and I was in the hearing where the judge gave four judges all together but one of the judges gave what they call a Donald advisement if you’re found guilty of all these you could face 40-50 years in prison so that scared all the gals they all took plea agreements most all four felonies a butt with probation instead of going facing going to prison Tracy was the only one that held out and went to trial went to a jury I thought the judge was very good there was a lot of big legal arguments about how much you can bring religion into the issue it was clear that there is no first amendment protection I can go through all the legal cases what’s the could you don’t have first amendment protection against state criminal laws but every States when the Supreme Court declared the Federal Protection of religion Free Speech religion along with did not apply all the states develop their own freedom of religion hacks including Arizona and there was a Hennessy case or the Georgia cases that have to be discussed anyway so I was hoping she’d rely more on that unfortunately the a lot of her testimony was very long the judge gave her free raining on everything but it was mostly preaching goddess goddess teachings an app to the jury my opinion didn’t have enough of the legal arguments there was also a lot of witnesses some of the top people the founder of the human sexuality was testify there he’s a great guy even Dennis Hof of the runs Nevada brothels was there and he’s playing this was no way to run a brothel what you take a donation at the end of the. At the end of the session you on the throne or whatever it was called you put your donation of those suggested what was on the website and in order to violate the state prostitution law which leads to criminal Enterprise you have to have a few rangement for a sex act and so I was arguing she should be hurt anymore that wasn’t the arrangement anyway those were brought up but she got it a lot of side issues which weren’t really relevant to my humble opinion so it’s finally after what was it for 5 months of trial judge I thought was very fair went to the jury and we thought you know how many days will the jury deliberate and everything within a couple hours Jerry was ready to announce the verdict I had gone home most people have gone home we got calls we all ran back to the courthouse and she was found guilty on all counts and sentenced to four and a half years in prison when she is now in she then filed an appeal the peels been in process now for a couple of years and all sorts of delays in the appeal the court appointed attorney hope she also acted as our own the Turning which I’ve always thought was a big mistake because she was already really more about what wonderful goddess work she was doing rather than the law and I don’t mean to be over critical but I think she would have been done better if she had had an attorney rather than representing herself so we finally got to the appeal stays she filed a brief her own appeal attorney suggested she not get to her hopes up too much because unfortunately I think the issues are against her then a couple of months ago or 3 weeks ago actually the state made their reply which got into all of the typical reasons why the state has a compelling interest in the prostitution law all sorts of other be crying all the terrible things that happen which is mostly related Street prostitution simple but that was hard to overcome so we were still in the appeals estate actually if she gets out with good behavior Plus credit for time served she might be out of prison in December we don’t even know if that appeals court will make a final decision before she’s released which is sort of ridiculous so I’ve always totally support what she is done though I think her at legal legal aspects were weak and that’s one of my story my background and how I got related to the temple wow well thank you for sharing that and thank you also for being for being honest and this is a place to to learn and to grow together with the right intentions and so I appreciate and I don’t I don’t feel any reactivity emotionally to take me to pick sides and order or I wouldn’t advise anybody that’s could a critical thinker to overlook whatever dissenting opinions are may be of any of any facts or any proceedings like I said before I don’t have a enough of any of the background information or experience to have much of an educated opinion on any of the stuff other than just the for me it’s the this is a unique opportunity for these issues to be sort of officially etched in the record of Western Civilization for as long as it exists but I would say I got a girlfriend I I’ve totally think of prostitution laws ridiculous and should be changed I just got back from Canada to Canada every year for the last 15 years in the Toronto area where we don’t have is a sure everybody’s safe her everything’s aboveboard they don’t have these kind of issues so even though I thought she defended it a little wrong I’ve always been supportive of what she does and all the good things we had by and I think about you we should have decriminalization of prostitution like much of the world does and we wouldn’t have this a lot of the problems that are associated with it I mean stay probably spend a million to $2000000 to prosecute her in 38 good Folks at the truck at the temple in the court system UI money could have been much more wisely smell than on something that had some real victims also one other interesting aspect that you really gets me upset is a one of the vice cops testified he been like a Vice Cop for 15 years and he made the statement have all the rest I’ve done and everything was undercover and with Vise work I have never yet met a prostitute quote that shows the profession she was forced into there’s something in her background so the idea in Phoenix and now around the country is we have to arrest sex workers look like for that turn we have to arrest sex workers to save because no woman in the right mind would be a sex worker that’s the attitude we have when the when the cop said that on the stand Tracy popped up and said you don’t know me and the cops as well I don’t know you that well I’m sure if I dug into your background I would find some abuse for some reason that you didn’t you needed to be you needed to do this and be a sex worker both in Phoenix and basically around the country funded hugely by these anti sex worker and I work groups to take a few isolated cases usually from the street which is totally different from your sex work is dividing the two things Street work obviously which I’ve had no connection with and private Consulting consenting adults like the Phoenix temple and zillions of other escorts a lot of the making your way through through college that are there by choice but we don’t make a distinction about that and there’s huge funding millions of dollars going in the organization to propagate the idea that all sex work is abusive women and therefore we need to save them and lately it’s been reduced man so they’re going more after sings with customers now has a way of reducing this man so hopefully no women will want to be a sex worker be so that’s cuz that’s the big issues that we face it really gets my call with the temple case and all the zillions of other people that have been prosecuted that are doing in private consenting adult sex work right yeah thank you for being up all those are so many important points of of talking points and in places to take action from all in what you shared and we’re in this very backward time right now in special United States and appreciate you bringing in a more Global Perspective and really the the words that the worst harm reduction come to mine for the forward-thinking progressive policies around drug addiction that have also been lead in other parts of the world in at the US drug war is not the War on Drugs the war on sex workers it’s all very much well it’s a Wyndham Chomsky would say it’s not it’s not a conspiracy it’s institutional analysis is not a conspiracy theory if you if you study what’s going on so from your perspective do you want to talk about what you feel especially of the religious background what are the forces what are we how would you describe the forces that are justifying in their minds and their budgets that level of of budgeting for what you could argue is a victimless crime well there are I can’t remember her name is one special Advocate has been wrong for years this written all these research reports on the evils of prostitution us because they are about people mostly street workers and they’re armed and there is a problem street workers that have come from abusive backgrounds that are forced by by economically reasons and that sort of thing I happen to believe that street work is a public nuisance is completely different than private checks work we should have other Alternatives like in calls or or Jones week been tried in Europe but of really really failed the woman that sort of started all of this been going on for like 10 years this is nothing new was just accelerated in recent years the Canadian studies calls I’ve always been legal in Canada however until a few years ago in calls were illegal and agencies Living Color’s call living off the avails what’s the main problem was in calls really go so you can get people off the streets and in an Impulse there was a big fight in the court challenging the laws for printing call and agency living off the avails agencies always thrived in Canada was never a problem his agency’s clearly Soul time and that sex isn’t the word any agencies are being prosecuted o that way but everyone was afraid open Indian calls which would be safer than alcohols Dover number of yours are way too started my case that wound up in the Superior Court of Canada Sac Superior Court of Canada that is a judge ruled 1/2 ruling was one of the longest ruling is in Canadian history of her detail that she went into with all the testimony from both sides part of the testimony was from these groups from the United States that did Friend of the Court briefs about all the evils of sex work the judge took all this into consideration and basically discarded all of that is being biased with a nun representative group and she ruled that the Canadian prostitution law for incalls basically and living off the avails was unconstitutional their constitution is a Charter of Rights and Freedoms which part of that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is about the security of the person and security of the person has been defined as harm reduction in the eyes of the court and ruled that the laws against prostitution without call is always Leon but the other forms of prostitution violated the charge of racing in friedensburg Jennifer security of the person because it created harm so it was the crown light at the the stated then appealed and stem appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada the Supreme Court of Canada upheld Superior Court ruling declaring it unconstitutional the prostitution laws of Canada based on harm reduction something happened subsequent them c36 which is probably going to get rejected also which then made it sort of the Year peter than Swedish example made it illegal for the customer conservative Harper prime minister was against Sheehy there more than some very conservative sects work was terrible and pass the law that made it a crime for the customer even though it was totally legal for a sport most all the major cities police Jason said they were not going to change their enforcement that they were going to follow the harm reduction model of the Supreme Court and basically there’s been no address in are bothering in private consenting adults sex with customers it did bring charges against an Asian Sea which is in process is not going to come back to the courts until January most legal experts believe it will be able to see 36 level to be held unconstitutional again the whole idea is harm reduction safety of the security of the individual under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms obviously the same thing would apply here but we have these well-funded groups National groups we have the hunt Sisters of the famous oil kind of tycoons have been a big girl order of millions of dollars I’ve actually gone there are nonprofit organizations I’ve actually gone and see their their tax filings r990bts background and see the millions of dollars being being funneled into it we also had a big thing in Phoenix the governor and the former Governor instigator that this big Council on sex work made in prostitution and one of the biggest organizers and supporters was mrs. McCain as in Senator McCain who ran for president on unfortunately sick right now but serious illness so we had all these legislative changes in Arizona including making it a felony to promote or assist before that there were about four local boards for people were sharing information warning people about bad clients escort warning others about that clients fake police officers that would would try and get free services that sort of thing when the new Arizona law passed that basically all the local board shutdown nobody wants to be committing a felony for assisting in prostitution my board I greatly reduced I stopped in the ass I stopped any reviews basically it’s now just Legal Information and general stuff but nothing like it was before one of the examples which goes back a few years before these new Arizona laws were passed making everything more risky for everyone of course now with no floss that’s even more extreme Now All Aboard you shut down so there is no safety and in that but I had a rather dramatic experience Health Department as sort of their their battering ram into the industry I’m curious in New Hampshire are they is it is there any specifications from the health department or health code that that are trying to set the rules for the industry for the porn industry their house we are hoping for more people more to join you know start producing they would have to try to regulate it but I don’t know if they would because I really don’t think they would I adhere to the same of you know guidelines as as far as testing goes as the only difference is we provide them with testing we we go through this last we have this very detailed checklist I think it was inspired by Nikki Benz I think it’s called and he will try to do it is legitimate is possible the only difference is we’re not paying Los Angeles or Las Vegas free because no dependents small company but you know we talked with other producers about importing Talent from Vegas and Los Angeles and you know kind of like it’s a long journey to make the asacol responsibility to keep it clean and keep it regulating type of business you just have to have trust that all people are you know I’m doing the right thing around that is because then yeah I think that I think like Outlets sexually here you know I said you know if you will actually liberated place like you know I even thought about you some Leaf peeping directed in the professional studio shoot up or down with your spouse just that sounds like a great guy honestly before you even were saying this stuff I could I was just it was a premonition that you would be talking about this because I I just felt like you were going to probably end up working in some capacity with the Chamber of Commerce of wherever whatever region or whatever sort of municipality or me to Sally’s and actually help that like what you’re you can’t you know you can’t afford your Public Works projects you know your new parks are being closed down for whatever reason well here we got the screws it’s going to be amazing yeah I can see it now and start building and I’m almost filling my gas tank to start driving out there right now I can of gas its people have been wanting you know it’s been it’s been on my not just a to-do list but actually really it’s it’s it’s the lot a lot of the stuff is is I can see it happening and also I I I want to if it’s not already being taken for some other obviously a worthy cause I feel like the love Free or Die state is going to be the hashtag that I talk to Subway to get a handle on that it’s all you it’s you if you can take that and run with it if she if it works but I feel like that’s good it’s the best I feel like you have a lot of love but I like a lot of love yeah I know I feel it I feel I feel you said you were a Healer and you seem you seem like very empathetic yeah this won’t this to me you know all of the trauma that I have witnessed that I’ve experienced ice I can imagine that this is would be a place for people that veteran died literally I mean you know they call it in the adult industry we say that you’re a civilian if you’re not in front of you in if you’re not in front of the camera and doing the stuff for on the street or wherever you’re a civilian and so if that’s the case which I really truly believe it is then we need to have VA programs in hospitals in a note and benefits and we’re doing a public service for helping living out everyone’s fantasies for them if they don’t have the courage or the resources to make them happen so for that I like to be treated with this much if not you know as much love and respect and dignity and resources as veterans violence and brutality in Warfare civilians is military yeah that’s cool yeah and we aren’t we aren’t we know we were lying about reliving some sort of childhood, it wasn’t about servitude or Surrender sometimes it was just the process to the session would be the process to get to the Aftercare to get to that hug to get to that approval of being told you did a good job you know and when I realize that I thought there’s so much more I’ve actually I’ve had plenty of clients for a while there it was kind of weird they were widows widowers their wearers like I was attacking little words that were in various ways and people don’t understand that Sexual Energy can be incredibly therapeutic and healing you know when there’s something fundamentally wrong with that especially you know I mean now I mean Dairy mention you know I mean every day and I just kept having these handmade in handmaid’s tale things going through my mind and and now to be apart of Swap and to be keto on the inside track knowing what’s going on with this legislation here to decriminalize effort I am filled with hope and love all over again no more despair or fear I feel like this could really I meant to be alive right now at this time and to be here and now in this state I feel very very honored and lucky absolutely why I feel very honored and lucky that we are having this conversation you were exactly the voice of the representative that I wanted to find and connect with its in this is really an amazing amazing invigorating conversation and I just I just want to thank you again so much and you know we’ve got a little bit of time left I think we covered most of what I was super excited and looking forward to discussing I guess I would like to ask if you want to talk about the kind of support that you need from people in the area from people abroad people anywhere in the world listening to this but what what do you need to help your chapter really get to the to the point where were you have all your dreams are coming true and you know you have the people power and the skill sets what were you what are your pain points and what do you need so that that can just be put out there and it is a prayer absolutely absolutely awesome and I’m sex worker Outreach project is a nonprofit we do accept donations we accept recurring donations donations I mean just to be an ally to a sex worker to be supportive and you know aware that their work is real work and emotionally laboring work to know the sex work as a form of emotional and physical labor and that nobody story is is representative of all sex where you know and I think that the presence of sex workers in social movement come together and try to fight this and you have to fight what gone but it is a tubal refuse up sex workers bank accounts and it’s happened the money seems suspicious that’s unacceptable yeah yeah that’s you that’s the way to to bypass So Many Factors whether it’s the pimp violence or the banks or the state or even Amazon not wanting your wishlist to be you know used for compensation whatever it is the terms that you have to been in bed will I have to say that the my biggest public service announcement for anybody that might be in your network who listens to this is that I really hope that anyone listening who is a sex worker who has the u.s. exposed to these Financial choke point issues invest time in studying the whole cryptocurrency movement starting with Bitcoin and in aetherium but but you can accelerate that process if you start to look into joining the platform of spankchain which is bringing together all of the activism all of the the really Advanced cryptocurrency solutions for being your own bank literally being your own bank where you have peer-to-peer Financial transactions you can sell they will be yeah they will be providing a lot of solutions for the industry and for the producers and performers to be empowered independently and off the rails of the money system we don’t need to do our dirty work without your dirty Fiat is how I feel McGregor’s Outreach project we have like a meme donation thing you can donate cooked difference NFL Karma Dakshin and and how how sex workers are the difference between trafficking educate yourself some people have been looking for what seems like an ideal future to me or all of the the glory and the beauty of the healing in the transformation that is possible and also the the sort of in the streets marches and the activism going to take to get there and a couple of I guess you’re silly but up at the memes have come to me and one is it you know people I remember chanting in the streets protesting Wars and logging and you all kinds of pollution would not the people we would always chant whose streets are our streets and I can hear this echoing Cruise sheets are seeds coming out with our seats and then you can also got allies and civilians involved right thing that ever since I started looking into it swapped but I’ve ever felt like we’ll all of the the Financial Funding necessary to do real political work lobbying in legislation and all that stuff I feel like there’s got to be a way to solicit the the buyers of sex work the purchasers of the material that the funeral of the client’s right of the clients are you so mean maybe PornHub can put a donate button to swap you know somewhere I mean set stuff like that I would love to see the financing for all of the stuff that you have in your bucket list of dreams to make come true for this industry and for this movement that that the money if the people who can afford to pay for their further their fetish or for their experience or for their media everybody and you know what I mean I come from the the green business Eco business startup kind of seen in in LA and it was a no-brainer that you would want to launch your startup having a dollar of every purchase or a percentage of your purpose so that you could have the the pr potential of putting out press releases were you talk about how you give back as a social impact or I mean even PornHub has done a lot of cool stuff like that and I don’t mean to keep harping on them but because they’re the biggest conglomerate really that the industry absolutely and you know that they’re behind them right that I was either going to let my contact continue to be over there in cream to the channel myself because it because you know we can continue and have more follow-ups to this conversation but I certainly would love to explore some of your insights in the industry and I have some yes yeah I wanted to add you know how that Whole Foods you know if you have to you have to be a squeaky wheel gets the grease and House of weird that you were is this is thrilling to me I know that there’s a there’s worse things in the world than having pornstars solicit you on your doorstep like door-to-door canvassing for help me on Monday to take your singing telegrams you know what the my name is you could use the conservative rhetoric against him and say we’re here to clean up the adult industry sign here and give us a check what do you mean well I know where else next workers never would never when they used to pack meat and the muckrakers had to blow the whistle and that’s how we have ratio any conservative how do I I subscribed to say the r word regulation but I will say any sort of public outcry about working conditions that’s all we need you know and Industry within the industry of people like you who know what performers need what the issues are and can represent that and it’s not coming top down it’s not coming from you know sideswiping from weird organizations with too much money trying to push agendas where they don’t belong and some people know what I’m talking about there and some people don’t but it’s what they did with the keywords you know trafficking of course people wanted to sign off on that piece of aeon I support you know anti-trafficking laws of course I do and so what we could do is we could eat give them a dose of their own medicine like you said hi we’re going to clean up your industry and fine hair like that cuz that’s how they do so many things when they say you know that people don’t read the fine print when they when they sign initiatives to get on the ballot you know they read the sort of sensationalist headline that skews the facts to some moral kind of you get boxed in Morley by the by the by the headline of whatever it is and so that it’s it’s like appealing to logical fallacies for anyone to want to do that but yeah I mean this is really it’s actually truly the holiest and most most sort of medic there’s there’s a way for all of the people to I mean excellent performers have the legal space to do this right then then the medical aspect will I think it’s going to naturally organically become a safer environment if you’re not having to be underground in the hide from you know the the filming commission and fucking cops and at the neighbors and you could actually have facilities that work up Captain staff and you know and fungus were like just clean to the places I mean that’s what people say about the all of those secondary crime things that go along with Vice and things being underground and the black market economy you know if when you when you legalize drugs all of those secondary cramps go away and so this is a war on sex and we need to end the war on drugs and the war on sex and these problems will sell themselves in the free market so it’s going to happen New Hampshire you know get ready full medical benefits of cannabis right and I’m actually is for you I think what will happen is that is that is that the Cheeto person will get a reverse gangbang by a bunch of Tantra see the goddess and he will want to transform United States into one giant orgiastic goddess Temple to heal the planet from all the patriarchy that’s my that’s my vote I’m going to put that are you trying to turn me on now I try I try not to but sometimes I can’t help it it just happens thank you for that well yeah so we it’s been one of the most delightful hours of my life at sharing this time with you and I’d like to ask you now to give us the links to everything that you want to share and that you’re involved with and close this out with some final words calls-to-action slogans from the front lines whatever you like to share please take your time. Thank you it’s been an honor and I’m I’m I’m pretty sure my cheeks are going to hurt from smiling too so that’s as wot USA. O r g basically you where you can find me I just would like to do everything I can and vegetation Security building in Albuquerque beautiful thank you awesome alright I see well yeah let’s let’s call it a podcast and let’s be in touch and I will I will be in touch again very soon thank you so much and have a wonderful evening. Smiley and you’re coming over here thank you for listening to the touch upon podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition of sustaining and improving the podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email event at Tantra Punk. Com Thomas Day
In this episode I interview Tracy Elise the founder of the Phoenix Goddess Temple. She is defending herself in a historic trial and facing multiple felony charges. She tells her story of providing non-profit sacred sexual healing services, offering spiritual initiation and training, and being persecuted for her religious beliefs and practices.
To help support her legal defense efforts please visit:
For a glimpse at the temple arts please watch and share this video:
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin welcome to Township Punk podcast episode number 36 I’m here with Tracy at least and we’re going to be talking all about the Phoenix goddess Temple and the first off I just want to say that this case is near and dear to my heart and since I heard about it a few years ago I felt it it definitely was going to be sort of like a Roe v Wade for sacred sexuality and it’s something that I believe everyone who is involved in the sacred sexuality movement shouldn’t have a good clear understanding of The Facts of the case from Tracy here and his interview and also say that if you listen to any of my previous podcast and you know anything about my personal life story it’ll it’ll make a lot of sense why I care so much and I’ll just put it out there that I feel that we are on the cusp of a paradigm shift for we understand that the natural Spiritual Authority of the Priestess class that should be honored and revered no matter what religious background you have most importantly because of the fact that we’re in a world filled with rapists and child sexual abusers who would do much better to have access sexual access to Healing goddesses and gods who are going to create a line of defense now so that the energy that’s stirring inside of them but doesn’t have a healthy and safe expression with other consenting people they can go and receive a trance station of the energy into something positive in purified and prevent the the heinous crimes that I was victimized by as a young child and it’s a young teenager and also free anchor into the Hearts face of praying for the victims of Elliot Rodgers and think about how the family members of the slain in the massacre that was the result of extreme sexual frustration if we could possibly imagine what the world would look like if men suffering from that anxiety had a healthy sexual initiation through these traditions of sacred feminine Sexual Healing practices and sexual initiation practices what the world would look like if there could be so much less sexual violence and so much more sexual healing and I think that we are going to learn a lot today and we’re going to start to figure out how we can support the efforts of these Frontline Warrior goddesses of peace and light and healing in love that we all desperately yearned for so with that said Tracy thank you so much for opening up your temple space for me in this moment and I’ll say now please bless us with all of your might and magic and mystery finishing up feeling a little altar here at fiery altar on this December 22nd and I have my Yoni symbol my beautiful pink conch shell and then I have the fireball then a mosaic that’s kind of like a stained glass and that reminds me of church and I grew up as in a church so I like I like the feeling that when you go into a Cathedral at Temple Church at a mosque I like how it feels when you go into that set aside Sacred Space so I wanted to bless the moment if I could that way anyway yeah so how about the history of the brief history of the Phoenix goddess Temple so that we know what we’re talking about and what is now being investigated I have been doing group practice since 2002 and I never set out to be a center holder for group practice it was something that I deliberately set out to do but what was happening is I was working in a certain way and people were responding to how I was working really it was the attitude with which I was working and so I had Seekers and that’s a that’s I’m for a very long time I’ve used a certain kind of language early on the state of Washington called me up and said you know we we have a complaint it on your website and it was a website I wasn’t even using called true Spectrum Tantra North a picture of a massage table and it said Relax on a massage style table and even say massage table is a massage – stufful table and they’re like you know that’s a reference to massage you can’t do that and so they wanted to visit the premises make sure we weren’t doing illegal massage it was in 2003 at the light Body Temple and in that I wrote her a response to the government to the state of Washington to Health Board and they accepted my explanation of what I was doing and they said we want you to know we keep funds to do will keep the file open and you’ll probably she’ll probably be visited by some undercover inspectors just a follow-up to make sure that you’re not doing that and you know we never really were but it made it very important at that point but I had to draw a line in the sand very early I’m not doing anything with massage it really isn’t massage we’ve always been calling at the altar Altar and the alt AR is consecrated that is dedicated with spiritual and and that upon this altar u a l t e r u alter towards the Divine and so we we don’t have massage tables we have altars and and then because I’m really into the quantum physics aspect of it they human-like body then I lights we always like the under part as well and with little white twinkle lights and it’s to represent that we are made up of particles flight and to not forget that so anyway so yeah I’ve been rocking with the government for a while and always successfully that’s why this was really shocking when it happened and yeah so it for a long time I’ve been doing group practice because I wanted to I I didn’t know that what I was doing with sacred when I began but I had a very Mystic beginning a Mystic initiation into Central Bodywork it was much more than that so the person that I was initiated by into this sensual touch work I think we called it central Bodywork is what it was called but this person was actually a magical intersexed person they were born both I think that that he she actually use the term hermaphrodite and this was astonishing for me I really felt like I had fallen down the rabbit hole but I was very happy to be there if it was like a whole nother world and I was Bible refer to him as he because he was literally living as a man at the time this initiation into this touch and what happens and how much people need it and his thing was he said you know if you give people the touch and a good a good massage a good a good all over touch then they’ll always come back and people don’t they don’t really when it comes to sex see no shopping around for sex with her that’s variety people never go back whatever but you said this is different you want to be a Healer like I don’t think he used the word healer but he talked a lot about the importance of touch and then if you gave good touch gave a good massage that was his word that he was trained in massage in a lot of people who work in a sensual field are in fact trained in the Sun and they could never let the Two Worlds touch because the protocols and ethics of massage don’t allow you to touch the whole body so RBI came from that background that touch I was never trained in massage but I I found that I had a knack for it I would gift for it I think a lot of people might find it given the right circumstances or writing for a judgment a little bit of demonstration a lot of people might find that they are healers that they have the hands of healer I found with very little effort that I was good at it and I’ve I’ve met other people who is soon as they got in chamber they were just naturally good at it so that’s a real thing and that’s me that’s body wisdom and there’s also the whole aspect of past lives and is something did you have a temple life and is now you’re remembering it in your body’s remembering it at the cellular level and you know how to do things that your mind doesn’t know how to do to me that’s real Mitten might not be to everybody but to me it’s real I’ve had some serious past life experiences that were extremely Vivid Ananda they weren’t anything else they weren’t dreams they weren’t wasn’t my imagination and it was like chilling so you know chillingly real how so the temple then evolved out of your practice of groups and people wanted to do there was a a percentage of people who really liked the idea of doing the work in a sacred Manner and people say what do you mean sacred and I say well yes I can’t really talk to you about sacred sexuality without some sort of definition for the sacred and for me that the practicing the operating definition of the temple is if you’re willing to be grateful if you are grateful for the gift of life that means that you’re operating in a sacred way if you are ignoring or even cursing the gift if you see this as a weigh station to a better before you get to a better place to me that’s not sacred and that’s kind of pagan it’s kind of Native American it’s an earth-based view that our sacred is everything around us if the the mall the matter the material is all sacred and but there is a thing about setting aside a Sacred Space and anyone who’s ever held space as its Center holder for a church Center holder for a temple even a sitter holder for a business or anything like that anytime group you know there’s a you know there’s a bubble in which the group conducted specialized activity and the energies are concentrated within that bubble they’re not diffuse they’re not out of the world you’re you’re concentrating those energy than that’s what the temples has it concentrates the energy so we were we were you know as far as the case goes I see how would I put this in a short Manor I moved to Arizona I did ceremony December 21st of 07 up at Sedona Temple and I was there with tomorrow brussaux and we were committed the two of us to founding a Sisterhood sacred sexual nunnery if you will send you know seen the movie A League of Their Own and there was this beautiful camaraderie of these women who had played baseball when it was really no one you know it was a guy’s game and what are you doing with these skirts out there on the field and really doing the sacred sexuality work is kind of like that you know you’re you’re sort of people think it’s a novelty you’re bucking a trend Yuri misunderstood and I just thought this would be great for us to have this this Sisterhood that appreciates and passes on knowledge and and we kind of have each other’s back so that was that kind of the through line for me is the Mystic sisters and I began to call us the Mystic sisters in the fall of 2002 and I swear that it was a church with spiritual healers and Earth stewards they offered me a charter into July of 2002 and So within a year of doing central Bodywork I had moved into realizing that for me and for a few other people that this work was sacred they felt they were really having like I don’t know like a church like experience but you know spiritual transformation shifting at the soul level shifting at the cellular level people were I was getting the feedback that we were changing lives even with simple body work because one of the things is if you’re doing the sacred sexual and you’re in that place of gratitude for the gift of life and and you are a holding space for whatever your version of sacred is people when they when they touch that they they come into your chamber your healing room and a lot of times they’ll just collapse into the wonderful Vibes of The Killers space and I want to divert a little bit here. Go off because it was about 2,000 and Hotsy was when I went to Florida I don’t know what’s a while ago very early two thousands I happened to hear in the middle of the night this woman talking and I wish I could credit her and I cannot but I heard on the radio this woman was talking about how the healers chamber the room must have the elements in it and that if your room has fire actual fire and you have water like a beautiful sacred bowl of water or poor or perhaps also a fountain we’ve got running water but properly placed of course and then you got heavier than Ware pots and maybe some huge Stones the biggest ones you can carry in big huge rocks in the north of your chamber or maybe you maybe you put them somewhere else and then having the air the fan so that there’s always this movement of air and she said you know when you put the four elements in a chamber and you have actual like a real tree a living tree and the end the leaves are rustling in the breeze of the fan there’s that there’s a an instantaneous healing that happens at the particle level that the each element breaks down two different sorts of molecules and particles and that that is so when it’s when a Healer sets at their chamber correctly a huge healing happens with the person just being in the room and it ends so that that struck me cuz I was already working with the four directions and the elements and so that just made sense and so I began to always do that with the chamber’s infect with the Earth portion of it we would buy two of every plant and two of every little tree and we would rotate them into the outer areas like the classrooms the hallway the foyer and switch the plants out so that we can have living trees a lot of work to do it that way and sopa and that’s where people have to slow down and end in really you don’t do your practice all the way 10 to those 10 to those living plans as part of your altar Pioneer sacred work anyway that’s going off on the healers listening so I wanted to share that it wasn’t my idea but I found that it’s very true if you go out of your way to have the elements in your chamber and properly Place everything so pretty like going back to the first thing I ever did was Brock with the government on massage at massage without a license and I’m sure we weren’t saying that in our phone script or anything I’m sure we called it sensual touch it even sensual Bodywork had like a different connotation so if I’m not mistaken it was right around the spring of 2003 that that I began to use the phrase whole body healing and it’s interesting because the word heel h e a l means in the Latin to make whole whole and to be whole whole is have your compartmentalize pieces brought back into one into a homeless and then when you are whole that’s also the same root word as holy holy so to heal is to behold behold is to be made holy and you become one with everything so I got really clear that I wasn’t doing massage I got really clear at the time I wrote a very specific letter about chakra balancing I mentioned a Bianca as a self-care Ritual from Arya Veda and that we were using a similar long Slidin Strokes on the limbs towards the heart and swirling on the limb give me the joints with with other body Benz you juice wrld it basic Avianca self-care ritual of anointing the body yourself but in the case of visiting the light Body Temple we were doing the ritual for you giving people different oils that they could choose from and and then I also was of course bringing up the holy anointing tradition in the Bible and Mary Magdalene as the anointing of Jesus I mean she was not Not only was she not a prostitute and I wanted to kick it in here that it wasn’t till 1969 at the Vatican admitted that my meds when was not a prostitute and they have yet to really acknowledge that Not only was she not a prostitute she was a priestess and the word Magdalene as she was Mary of magdala magdala which is the triple towered Temple of the Goddess there’s been a recent a very thorough translation of it and there’s no question that Mary Magdalene was a priestess of the Goddess temple in magdala that she was a holy anointer and I brought that up with the state of Washington and you know they accepted all of that and I have that letter and and they did probably come and do some undercover work and visit us and an however we were you know we were let go we I think no one ever visited my places that didn’t think I was sincere and because I am sincere and and there’s always people around me who feel that way to really when we want change part of it is is giving each other that witness to say I like this thing over here better let’s let’s focus on it let’s give it some energy this is better than what we’re doing and you need to do that together so that’s something that the temple did is it created vortexes of divine witness where people would get cool ideas somebody else would witness it back there might be a way to implement it because you are a community and so it’s a really it’s like a living organism that that was happening with the temples At The Florist beautiful so this idea of the witnessing I feel like a lot of fish Shadow behaviors in romantic and various kinds of interpersonal relationships that are not observed by at least another one other person if not a community of people it’s a lot of these really abusive Tendencies are allowed to fester in total secrecy and privacy so Fellowship around intimacy that structured and disciplined and in sacred and with the the higher vibrational procedures in place so that you’re not devolving into debauchery that’s a with excessive drugs or alcohol in a lot of people are just taking it you know if you make Eros into a sloppy kind of parties or if you look at some of the ancient temples there was always an aspect that was there were Spirits there were Vapors there were things that you would take and there were and pleasure was definitely part of it you know one of the things that was a real eye-opener for me was when some people in Seattle they have a I don’t know if they’re doing it now it really going to come put a damper on it when we when this happened in Phoenix but they call themselves sensual Seattle and they were teaching a certain type of sacred sexuality it involved what always washing the feet in the ancient tradition that did a lot of really cool stuff but they point out Bruce isella born of of that group he said you know because if you see if you look at sacred sexuality what they all have in common these ancient lineage has around sacred sex is that they all have to do with living forever they all have to do with connecting the orgasm to immortality and what Bruce what’s Ella born said he’s like you no pleasure is a respectable part of what we’re doing you don’t want it who would want to live forever if you’re not there’s no pleasure and we sort of we’re going to wear down on Pleasure we we we get down on it even in the touch committee were like we’re afraid of being hedonistic into carnal to Primal but really honestly we’re all living in our head I mean maybe not in the country Community but out in the world people are living in the upper chakras and they could use some more Primal touch body yeah maybe Primal nature taking over these are places temples many more like them to come in my in my future vision and I hope hopes and dreams so that we are helping each other navigate these white waters you know that the quick update would be we’ve always had the potential to use religion as a defense the state did not want that to happen I think when they raided the temples they got a hold of our paperwork our computers are videos or pictures they saw our altars whatever I think there wasn’t there had to be there at some level like holy crap we really did write a church here but but at some level they’re like it doesn’t matter we think they’re breaking the law so you know you fast forward to four and a half years later and sincerity is is always the defense like you can use religion as a defense if you’re sincere and where we’re at in December 2015 after waiting for your little over four years for this thing to go to is it all of the Witnesses are saying this was my religion this was my church it was my school I was there to give my gift as a Healer or I was there to be healed or both the states as recently as this week and I think we have all this you know we’re going to start uploading all of the trial video able to buy it for $30 a day we can walk out with the trial video so we purchase the first four weeks and we are in the process of uploading that and we had we already have it up except for that and it is actually but you have to we found out we have to hide all the phases of the undercover detective like I’m responsible for that for hiding them so this is a call to action for financial support his ninja as a community is a huge defense it’s a real defense and then what happens is they have to prove or harm which which is my really circuitous way of getting back around to shame doing things in secrecy what part does Temple play in helping people get over this sort of shadowy aspect of intimate relations where let’s say you’re monogamous but you your partner’s no longer having sex with you and you’re never going to break that Bond but you don’t so don’t want to go to your grave never having sex again we’re just never being touched there or whatever that is that you’re not willing to to keep going and then you, you find someone in the Temple and so this is it’s interesting because of the sincerity thing now is back on the table religious defense is back on the table as of this last week and what it means that they have to prove harm in the hot day in Arizona there’s something a ruling that had to do with criminal accusations and being defended by a Church there was a gentleman by the name of Hardesty who went all the way to the Arizona supreme court defending marijuana as his religious Sacrament and because he was in his car there were like we’re going to we agree with you that this can be a religious Sacrament but we’re not going to let you have it in your car because he was saying I can have it anywhere anytime at all time and if it and they’re like because of the way the laws are at present we have to treat this the same as alcohol therefore you can’t have it in your car even under religious protection and then when did that when they did this Hardesty ruling they also and I’m going to have to paraphrase this but put it into writing that in the state of Arizona if I government doesn’t like what a church is doing and there’s and there’s no clear law no precedent around that particular religious group than the state has the burden to harms before it takes actions against the church WIll what they’re looking at with the temple is a lot of goodness every single person has testified about couples work working with women yes we admit that yes it was mostly male Seekers sing mostly female practitioners but we were always available for couples work always available for women’s work and I did do those thing and workshops and classes and coursework so the jury is getting to see all of that overall it’s been fun in Arizona it’s quite interesting that they get to ask question understanding that looks like a real Church why did you do this so going back around to what this Hardesty ruling is it means that the state has to prove a harm if they want to prosecute the church and end really so right after social work and is sort of feeding back into that sector the wisdom of of the Amazon and and Beyond and so is that something that you have I thought I remember reading somewhere you know we’re talking to you at some point about how this is this is like you could be hired by the more formal above ground and sectors of social work or Community work with where you can be brought in to bring some of the stuff that would normally be or I guess it’s just it’s a very interesting Cutting Edge of an intersection and I if I’m not mistaken that’s that you you are like sort of partially in that world 2 of of social work or is that something I understand correctly or social worker social worker y’all are layout string this conversation back and see where where I where I am placed social work as well as all the modalities of counseling and healing you know like they are all part and parcel to supporting and upholding status quo capitalist system so I’m going to like you know like you know also having been in the punk scene also had a big impact on my my party now thought you know in terms of healing these wounds we have to look at that you know we can’t we can’t say like that are healing is going to be independent of a world that is reeling and suffering from the continuation of this system as it is and so that’s where I for me like bringing capitalism into the equation is is something that’s real tricky it’s something that I feel needs to be kind of understood that you know we we can’t just rely on having sting services that we can pay for because that creates a gap you know where some people are going to have accessible abilities to to the healing and others won’t and that’s that’s not healthy for anyone and and also that it doesn’t address the root cause of why we need social workers to begin with and why we need counseling and all of that so I really like the notion of cultural healing that’s where more where I would be comfortable in any way kind of looking at myself as any kind of healer I don’t think we we can really heal individuals that’s really something that you know a person will need to and it’s not like they can be facilitated to do their own healing work but nobody can fix us we have to fix ourselves that’s that’s more I think a more powerful Paradigm to be apart of but you know I I I have worked in the realm I focused therapy and you know I have spent quite a bit of time around the spirit plant medicines and seeing how the plant medicines have assisted and I do I do continue continuously work to increase my knowledge and wisdom around working with us plants and and that also brings us back into that hole realm of discussion around you know ancestors and working with them or perhaps that’s something we haven’t really touched upon but maybe she said it’s just that in any form of healing that we do I guess for me the important thing that I really try to bring into whatever I do connecting back with her ancestors and healing the trauma of how we were disconnected from those ancestors and how that plays out in any kind of sexual wounds or emotional wounds that we carry and so that’s something that I I I feel like the role of initiation and ritual can can really do and that’s that’s been its Province ever since people began doing patrols I think it’s to build upon the legacy of their ancestors and to draw and their their help and support cool said that yeah thank you for helping me understand the other parameters a little better and and 100% there with you I have I have been because I live in the United States where there’s different laws around no prostitution in in how that affects the healing with sexual touch and pleasure as medicine and stuff like that is a lot more yes I understand in in Canada there’s there’s a lot more interesting legal space in order to do Hands-On Sexual Healing work relative to the US where it’s completely off limits in so I because of that adapting to that reality and also is a permaculture designer myself I have to think very deeply about how to navigate this issue of for-profit healing work that kind of in most sectors is about like you said I’ll put in my own words it’s like they want to know if if the if you’re at a time of time robot that supposed to be producing a set amount to be a productive member of the of the GDP then then if you’re not functioning properly than the the goal of the mainstream social work or psychotherapeutic or psychiatric Fields they’re trying to get you back into the rat race as soon as possible and they’ll do that with drugs with talk therapy or whatever that is about avoiding through tissue which is the disconnection from urethane from a healthy holistic wild habitat you know a night as a primitivist I see that you know the solution to your Neurosis is to retry belies and Get Growing your own food again in and rebuild that fabric so you know there with you on that tension about right livelihood in and taking money for healing and what is he doing so I really like what you said and that just is going to it’s going to help me a lot looking at healing the cultural level and healing the if I’m understanding right and I’ll put a couple my own words on it but I feel like we’re trying to build the scaffolding or were trying to design the context for people to take the responsibility of a personal healing and gone to that journey and so if you if what would you say are some practical skills are tools from all of your things that you would teaching and training and a things that you discovered in your own journey to where you’re in power tools for empowerment that you suggest or are resources that you suggest people Explorer to if they’re called to do the cultural healing work weather for profit or non-profit. Some dance between the two or it and then what what are some recommendations for people who are on their own path and aren’t necessarily called to do the the cultural healing yeah I mean it’s it’s a pretty vast subject that one but I think that a few points that I could think about and talk about our that I’m going to this idea of bringing you back in the station rights and recognizing that in the absence of them what do we have you know we are we are sadly in there without initiated Elders so many of us and if there are any of Elders that hold that ability to to guide those those ones are those are worth their weight in gold you know there really is people that we should try to lift up and and give them their recognition and see you know and then in the absence of that it’s like we kind of by default Our Generations people that will have to hopefully fulfill that and reach a place where we can actually help upcoming generations to go in a way that they don’t have to completely go it alone and and figure it out on them on their own the way that so many of us have had to and so there is a movement around Rites of Passage I sit on the board if you passageways which is a network that focus is squarely on you no Rites of Passage for you coming of age from all different walks and and and modalities you know some of them are our Boys to Men oriented some of them are girls to women some of them are starting to incorporate non gender binary kind of approaches as well which is good and and this whole focus on bringing back the ancestors into looking at Rites of Passage is is starting to happen and something that I focused on and so that’s that’s a resource you know people can go to youth passageways. Oregon and look at what programs are out there and they can also think about how they can add to that list and bring in things that are needed around especially around sexuality and relationship which is often I noticed kind of a big gap in a lot of programs out there you know because they’re confined confined or constrained by the conservative values where they take place and you know what school system is you know this is one of those places lagging for that kind of thing so it’s a role that I think that many people who understand the need can step into and cultivate as career paths you know and some people are pig figuring out how they can weave their credentials says on Sexual Health Educators or sexual therapist or sexual trauma or no trauma-based therapists you know into this realm of initiation and that’s that needs to happen on a on an increased level the other I see a lot of because of what I was saying around looks really don’t how many Avenues to learn other than through you know what the books in the workshops and offerings around sexuality thoughts unfortunately are not rooted in in people’s only need two lineages generally speaking you know so the whole Tantra movement is pretty much so you know a cultural appropriator of New Age fight version of those Traditions that would have been squashed by Christianity especially and so I think there’s work to be done there and as much as possible Retreat retrieving reconstructing are reconnecting with our own ancestral Traditions which I’m sure you know had their own knowledge wisdom around how to how to raise healthy harmonious individuals with healthy sexualities from from the vantage point of how what little I do know has been has been done in indigenous cultures and without wanting to appropriate for them from them I’ll just give way of examples out of that you know in and certain cultures that are studied like the Mayan culture and I think to some degree on certain places within Creek culture there’s examples of how as societies you know that the children are raised from an early age 2 reach a point where they understand how to how to harmonize with the other sex and how to to look after each other and that’s just a very basic principle that I feel like you know that’s that’s worth kind of learning how to integrate into our family structures if we have children that were raising just to keep in mind that you know there is a need for them to learn skills around things like consent and around being responsible with with one’s sexual energies and and I needs to start before they reach that age of adolescence where they’re just harder to connect with if you haven’t built up that Foundation so that’s something that I think about will do you so if I if if we check out that the organization that you mention is it would that be good place to find and something like a more enlightened or more conscious like sexual education curriculum or guidebook do you know if people were working on something like that so if I know if you know parents who were going through the puberty of their child that they have something that’s not just this cold clinical Western and even though that sort of evolving a little bit you know with things like a sack didn’t and whatnot I see a lot but the The ancestral wisdom and you know the ceremonial Rites of Passage you know how does it how does the Modern Family say okay well you’re about to start feeling you know hormonal Energy’s how do we give you know create even if it’s just within their family or their Community yoga or whatever is something more than what’s being offered in the normal sex ed or what they’re listening in gangster rap music and watching on sitcoms obviously you know it’s enough for lack of lot of alternative options it’s one one place to look and we’re always looking for others so whenever we discover something then we will see to auditory resources and we are trying to vet those resources and those organizations to make sure that they really are you know at least there’s some some level of you know safe recommendation that we can give for those those organizations we’re not we’re not in the position to really kind of completely you know set standards but we are trying to we have a code of what we call it a cross-cultural protocol so we do look at that aspect that you have for what we’re talking about that’s you know if that’s another layer that we will hopefully get to eventually and I do know that there are people within our Network who are really strongly focused on this particularly around girls to women kind of education and and Rites of Passage and some of the Boys to Men once but I think it’s also something we need to to enhance as well oh that’s great yeah that’s that’s that’s what I wanted to hear so that I can just refer people to this ongoing and so and then the LSI is kind of its there’s a Facebook I’ve been interacting with the the Facebook group for a while so is that something you recommend people plug-in I mean that’s the goal of that is to feature blogs and generate discussions from those blogs and also to establish a resource of services as well as information and so that’s you know running on in a very limited volunteer capacity and so you know it’s something that I hope will eventually become a very powerful resource but already it’s you know it’s been feedback that I’ve received that you know even just the the group that we have on Facebook somebody posted recently. You know it’s really help them in their in their path which is nice to hear and I’ve heard that a few times and I try to curate that group in such a way where it’s like you know it’s trying to generate discussion and it’s it’s trying to be a safe space where where people can get into some of those I’m intimate revealing is of what what’s going on in their lives one of the things that kind of came out of love sex intelligence local as a connection with Tamara and the love school that they have which is a very congruence philosophy to love sex intelligence and they’re their work to try to create or with to create safe spaces for people to to share stories of what’s going on in their intimate lover sexual lives and and B witnessed in a way that is non-judgemental where they’re not being flooded with advice but more just being witnessed which is kind of connected to that whole framework for Rites of Passage itm witnessing each other and so it’s it’s trying to also look at how you know communities can succeed in their in their goals which might include you know like being more sustainable or being an alternative to the systems around us and also being a part of a more peaceful kind of culture through filling this hole that is often where things go wrong where people are are are not feeling safe to talk about these these human experiences around wounding around are our hearts and our sexuality so I’ve been part of a Practice Group here that has been circulating also to other parts of BC and I think it’s a really it’s a really powerful movement to be a part of yeah we’re getting close to an hour or so I have to take a few more minutes and I’m get a couple thoughts and feelings some responsible for 1 something that his is coming up for me that I think it’s really empowering is this like idea that wouldn’t it be nice if some of us started to think of ourselves as aspiring Elders I’ve never thought of it that way until this conversation and there’s a little spark of joy and me that that says you know puts in context the the punk rock lifestyle that I had of live fast Die Young and just you know if it’s not throwing yourself into the meat grinder of insurrectionary activism you know with this sort of Death Wish you know this martyr complex or whatever it’s like those are really unsustainable archetypes to follow and they leave a lot of people when they get to my age in about 35 like in a sort of existential crisis that will the revolution didn’t happen and I didn’t get killed I didn’t die in the gutter you know I mean what am I going to do now and it’s like well maybe it’s time to become an aspiring Elder and you know clean up your act and and then start to think about how you’re going to make it easier cuz I there’s a lot of things that I had to go through that I would seriously love to have no one else ever have to go through and if you know if we can live in that. you know that is what you’re supposed to think that I think of you say you know you can you can learn from the wisdom of Elders who have gone through and made the mistakes that you’re probably going to go through or you can just be hard-headed and learn all your lessons the hard way but I mean we’ve had to learn a lot of hard lessons in the absence of the eldership but I think if we take on that there’s a yeah me too. It seems obvious but really the way you put it his medicine for me to think you know it’s a dignified path to be an aspiring Elder and then it makes you not be so how do I can help you defeat that that that grinding pressure that oh my I’m going to lose my looks and I’m going to lose my energy and I’m going to be in the state of deprecation towards death and that’s very much the greatest fear of the western manicured Uno photoshopped airbrushed identity like you’re not really giving any hope that aging will be of any benefit in here just marginalized further and further so I thank you for that serve very much still give that time sacred eldership dignity not a light title to hold I think the true Elder wouldn’t really feel comfortable in it cuz it’s defining attributes of an elder that is really one that can help that role be the best it can be is one that is is really accountable is really present isn’t so on the move that if you can’t you know be relied upon to be there for the people that it serves now needs to ideally be in the in the fellowship of other Elders to kind of keep it in in in check in a way like we have to watch for the Cole group kind of phenomenon where people you know place a lot of weight on that person and in a way that can privilege them in certain ways and also lead to potential like power distortions and things like that you know it’s it’s only human that people will make mistakes and so having that kind of accountability of other people and also that time yeah you have people heart or a different there’s always like in every phase of life with the lifecycle there’s there’s like the maturing phases and so there’s like you know there’s a baby elder there’s enough adult Elder and then Senior Elder and so it’s just we have to learn at each stage of Life how to become the mature version of what that stage is and says just something to think about as well and it’s good to to get your feet wet early on in life so that you know we can have deep roots and and the and those are the kinds of people to like in the Tamara situation out of the black community they have a circle of Elders who are basically people who have grown with a community enough that they know the people in their community and then they serve a role as potential kind of like the Matchmaker but you know in a way where people can approach them in and ask them like you know I’m interested in this person and they can help you assess whether this is the right time or what is a good or bad idea and you know they can kind of that. Whole courtship in a way that you know really I think I wish there were more of those people around here don’t you let me relax you know learn the hard way what does that we’re just not compatible certain people in The Matrix the I mean yeah I’m not I’m not a political scientist of the Matrix but I will say that what got me peaked on the ecstatic trance dance group ritual ceremony festival thing was it really when I saw I think it was maybe the second movie or maybe it was the second or the third but there was a scene where they’re just getting down to like Juno Reactor I think was a soundtrack of a butt there is something beautiful about seeing the different the warrior culture Guided by elders and of course there’s different the archetypes playing out in Conflict split that to me was took it further than then the Star Trek Federation is a futuristic Elder guided Council guided kind of reality so that was kind of fun but yeah so that’s what came to mind when you’re at we’re talking about that be so cool if you’re early sexual oracle’s who you go to you know if we’re going to give you insights and maybe even have name your child for you or something cool like that you know be so cool but right on then will I worry about at the hours so do you have any closing touch you want to share or any other resources or should we just I’ll post the the links that you mention and I’ll definitely encourage people to stay informed and keep an eye out for your anything coming up you have any appearances or anything exciting like that coming up you want to mention I think yeah I think I covered a lot of it and I just wanted to maybe plant a seed while I have the airwaves here about something that I’d I’d eventually like to work on presenting which is around insert Intercultural relationships and also decolonizing our relationships as well and just thinking about how how we can heal some of these ancestral traumas and use that has as as a means to strengthen our relationships and also our society right on I’ll be looking forward to everything that you’re you’re expressing in the world and I hopefully yeah maybe sometime in the future we can talk about skill sets for Beyond Christian monogamy that would be a great topic so yeah how would you feel about that maybe we can sometime in the next few months follow up with something like that. Maybe by the by the time I’ll have more of a personal lived experience to a base conversation around that I think you know in terms of people who are already I don’t know how many listeners here are on a Christian spiritual path without that many but if the energy and gnosticism and sacred marriage not going to the alchemical top in the in the Gnostic tradition but I I wouldn’t make any claims to be an expert in that area but it’s definitely something to look at cool alright then we will be in touch and will follow up sometime in the future and thank you so much so be I really enjoyed it and I know it’s taking us a while to get this to get this done but I think it was perfect and I couldn’t ask for anything more so you have a wonderful day. Take care and keep for listening to the touch upon podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is to see me and if you want a podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been at Contra Punk. Com Thomas Day