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Permaculture Eco-Warriors Establish The Moshram Part 2 TPP281

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In this episode I’m joined by MC Mycopath for a two part series on the past, present, and future of his personal permaculture journey and the establishment of The Moshram

My Non Verbatim Show Notes

MM:

10 years doing landscape consultations, small scale urban repurposing of people’s front and back yards, more hip with local, everything that’s taking place, microbio in soil, plants that co-mingle,

also consulting folks with health

certifications achieved through multiple biochemists

learned that the more fresh foods that we consume, the healthier our cells are

the body that takes us around here

with that, understanding and passion for that, I really wanted to be able to provide highest quality product of food for myself and others, coupled with education

spin farming, brother and I spin farming, didn’t necessarily bring in permaculture

added permaculture principle layer to spin farming

densely growing high value crops in small area

regenerate the living systems

help maintain my living system, at a cellular level, also at a financial and social level

been about 5 years, that I’ve been on this site, had multiple sites over the years

site, least likelihood of it being taken from underneath my feet, all apart of journey

seeing successes and failures in past projects

led me to finding this space

it was through a friend, that was aware that I was looking to scale up

spin farming in brothers back yard, with brother

then when on to slightly expanding at space I was at

really like to bring it all to one location and just do this

generally around vegetable crops

annuals predominantly

put in a layer of perennial crops

also longer term species, fruit trees

learned fascinating things about fruit

fruit tree requires least amount of water over long time period

gives back a lot to soil

soil is really just millions or billions of living organisms

eating pooping, dying, whole things perpetuating

through roots and leaves, branches, fruits, they drop all feeding system

year in year out

bring together this whole concept

put it at a term, silvopasture

rows of fruit trees, or some type of tree

aid in creating shade

aid in slowing down wind

not requiring a lot of water, relative to other annual crops

in between rows, would grow annual crops

maybe these annual crops are things just to regenerate soil

rotational crop, in between lettuce, grow vetch, cow pea, to reinvigorate the soil from what was depleted from what was the previous crop you cultivated

what we set out to do here

very densely packed rows of vegetable crops to sell at market and too individuals through CSA type program

longer term species of varying fruit trees

simply move forward upon goals of project, something that’s always an unknown, fortunately and unfortunately, that collaborative team of 3 individuals broke down

mediator, wasn’t sustainable, they didn’t vibe well, both wanting to walk away which they did

I was not very interested in walking away from another project, having it swept out from under me, again ,because these two egos weren’t collaborating

move post differences

differences got in the way

I wasn’t feeling, stepping away from all of the work we had done from contouring the land, to bringing in so much organic matter, infusing bacterium, all sorts of soil microbiology

perennial fruit trees, you have to wait some time, 3-5 years minimum to reap harvest

I didn’t have it in me to just be like you guys aren’t into, either am I, I am into it

don’t just want to do it here, want to perpetuate this stamp, different biomes

so cal region, mediteranean biome, only about 7 med, climates on the planet, tend to be the most lucrative for humans to co-exist with surroundings, temperatures, food crops, wild and domesticated

love to see what it’s like in other bioregions as well, other climatic elements

we’ve got going on what we have here

you came forward saying how interested you were in helping perpetuate this project, it was like the clouds parted

working on this site, we’re on 10s of acres, just working out a little over an acre, just maintenance alone for one person is daunting to say the least

just because we put together a holistic system doesn’t mean there’s no more work

actually perpetual, no end to amount of work, just in pruning things, cultivating

easy to plant seed, easy to harvest, cultivation in between, I don’t know if it’s gonna survive or not, I’ll do everything I can

lot of energy mental, physical, spiritual

one dude, isn’t gonna hold the world on his back man, either are two

TP: makes me think I’m gonna use another term for defining permaculture and call it ecological parenthood

caring for something to maturity

young families go through it, terrible twos, fighting, health similar thing

tree system here, adolescent,

MM: not as easy as dealing with child, can’t teach a tree how to fight off a squirrel, they’re bullies

TP: the timeliness of this, synchronicities will be unveiled later

rick straussman, first actual government sanctioned psychedelic research studies since the 70s, gap of 20 years

spirit molecule, interviewed,

recently, basically saying, people would ask did he take DMT,

he would give a vague answer or plausible deniability

eventually recently came out, admitted, yeah, I was doing it

I’m like fuck yeah, I wanted to hear that for so many years, scientist had the balls to do what he was talking about

ties back together, something he said, meta level life philosophy

you know, back then I had my whole career ahead of me still, a lot to lose, judged, critique, older, less of my life left, that’s much less life to lose

we’re at a point where I don’t want to piss off the wrong people, I don’t want to be a target, wait til we have resilience before we have grand opening at this site

eventually will ripened, eventually forced by demand, people will need it

sweet spot in time, security measures, support we need, capital, be in place for the time we want to open the gates

get to that point when, we did the thing, not much left to lose, tell the story, give real names, not give a fuck

certain things now, I feel like, at least statute of limitations has run out on some things, one metric

that feeling, we’ll get to a point where we don’t have that much to lose

my side of story of having fallen in love with this site, toured project in the past, wishing I could be more connected, occasion to visit

definitely feel like it was one of the most epic works in progress of so cal permaculture

ability to do it right

social permaculture dynamics of human sector, zones of humans, sector of humans, human elements, could have most beautiful property, dynamics surrounding neighbors be your worst enemy, false starts,

time energy, blood, blisters, heart ache, amount of effort that goes into permaculture project, somebody that’s they’re mission, to have that be continually ripped out in front of you

people don’t even see it

persecution of religious sects, we are the lost tribe of permies, that are constantly being haranged by neighbors

adapted us also to travel light in our personal empires

positive side effect of lifestyle of ecological romance

nudge nature to create symphonies of seed and soil

less hindered

student of Tyler Durgen, waking up after car crash with Edward Norton, the world I see, laying out strips of vennisen

hunter gathers, thriving on the carcass of industrial collapse

utopian anarchoprimitivists, intellectual elite, from eugene, green anarchist, wanna be poser,

not everybody was a poser, the heads that were the elitist, very hyper intellectual, authors and writers, wind bags, had all this talk

in eugene the founder of food not lawns, we’d go there talk bs about living primitive, blessing her with presence of our lofty conversations, decades later we don’t have our food forest, we don’t have fruit trees maturing, resentment, burnt bridges

super extra appreciate hard work that’s been done

this site, work you’ve done, huge grace, a pass, I could and should very well be punished for how far I’ve strayed from the path of planting trees, defending them, standing by them, storms, storming off of partners and lovers, mission and duty to make a stand

there’s a lot of times I’ve said this is not the hill I’m gonna die on, and this is the first time I can actually say this is a high that I would die on, for a lot of reasons, biggest gift to me, is to know

who is tantra punk, wacko jerk off wanna be tyler durgen alter ego, that split off from psychedelic ceremonies that got botched, and now this floating soul part of my old wounded self, has created this internet porn star wanna be freak, don’t have much ecological, I have bastard children trees, all over the place, to be able to be like

while you were out there, doing this thing, that could have got you in trouble, some what of an adventure, fool hardy, never would have expected that I could just cheat that time that I walked away from the permaculture path, did this freaky stuff

hey ben, dinners ready, fruit falling from trees, I just get to get back into the zone, almost 10 years since I was in deep coastal mountain broad acre permaculture, doing the trees, doing the systems right, the scale, the soil

waltz into this at a point you’d be beleagured, bromance novel cover if there ever was one

thanks to the designer of designers, tip had lift glass to him

be great to go into the shark tank part of this, now the reinforcements in the form of me and my humble but growing financial capital I can put in to keep things afloat, elbow grease, sweat equity

optimizing dance of mutuality, with responsibilities, rights, tasks, finances, between the two of us

alchemy we’re doing, the renaissance of this project, bring into 2.0 era

trajectory of , drawing from the permies community, paul wheaton, survival podcast, larry santoyo, different instructors we’ve had

business model for the site, the rebel farmers like sepp holzer, austria, kramaterohoff, epic contour narrow ponds support subtropical microclimates, high elevation fruit trees

so abundant, epic, done epic shit, considered to be the ultimate rock star, don’t think any other place on earth, other mature permculture projects, the profitability and scale and grandeur, I don’t know what I would compare to the kramaterhoff on earth

wonders of the world of permaculture tour, walk through it sometime

business model, everything else in agriculture sector, globalized race to the bottom, poison, toxic

convince people to want to buy american, niche for premium products, usually sick people who can afford to take your advice

don’t want to give crutch of supplying, want to teach them to do it themselves, leverage their acreage, their community

the idea of farming to enable other people to not be horticulturalists, shift from that as soon as possible

paradigm, living the dream, market gardeners, the biproduct of creating plenty of best varieties of food we’d like to eat, we’ll have excess, and with that excess we can play god to an extent in the economy because of how much of ecological ninjas we are

rather than try to package it all in plastic, get it in all the stores, scale it to the world

we make a more dense local economy out of it, healing center, learning center, teaching them how to fish, not selling them a fish per se

in my crude nut shell of a pitch, that’s the trajectory we’ve been most in agreement about

if somebody had infinite budget to invest, why should they buy into this as working co-op member, or non-working co-op member, how can people benefit from helping us

MM: few dudely dudes, I’ve met could really have no care to well being of nature around them, small minority of people I’ve spoken with of time on this path, over 20 years

experience with biodiesel co-op, very localized project, I would do education to engineering firms, groups

education at earth day festivals, people contribue, become non-working members of biodiesel co-op because they like what’s going on, think it’s a good direction

if anybody has capital, monetary, social, spiritual, any of the 8 forms of capital, that they are willing to share to perpetuate, the direction of this project

this may sound overzealous, I couldn’t think of a better project, or more dedicated individuals to invest that capital in

it’s one of those put your money where your mouth is

my clients in landscaping and in the health regeneration, many of them, actually buy into what I have to share, because of how I’m living my life

I’m not just using words, I’m hands in the soil, I’m doing everything I can at every corner

from what I know of you, been a crucial part of so many projects, that at one point or another it wasn’t your jive anymore for whatever reason

here we are find ourselves together on a mountain we’re will to die on

and it takes a community always

for anyone that would like to be a part of this community and see it perpetuate

be able to visit the site

local,

to benefit from the harvests of all of this, where else are you gonna put your money, time, energy, love

I’m not sure

it’s like you said man, this is one of the rare sites of southern california, any and all help, helps perpetuate a holistic project, working towards the great good of the local and world community when it comes down to it

held a lot of retreats, get people from all over the world, host in tropics, pretty good centralized area, highly abundance

ripe things to eat, throughout the year

amount of people that congregate, so diverse, so incredible, have a lot to share

at this point we have a site that any and all people interested have the ability to share

before it’s all been other people’s sites, very temporary, the time that gets spent there

long term expanded version of those experiences, and “retreats”

where else are you gonna put your resources, if you want to see great things happen, cause that’s all we’re really into

passionate

tend to only roll with those who are equally passionate about making this place a better place to be

agenda 21,

different concept of human settlement zones, from what we’re working towards here

TP: yes

to say the most and the least, that says it all, what could I add to that

nuts and bolts of this business modeling, goes back to legacy of my parents at some point will read the manifesto my father wrote for member based, for-profit nonprofit, fruit based operation, deep in heart of washington state apple orchard lands, building a massively, dense, intensive educational commercial project, rusticness, design constraint, make all tools, tools to make tools, melting down old cars, human powered, they were one of the first and most highly respected, wasn’t hippie commune, very studious, technical, published technical manual, subscribers to periodical, whether they purchased wares or we students, subscribe to catalog, kind of like micro version of mother earth news

department of making you said, interviewed mom, years ago, maybe now the time, one of those things you never know when it’s appropriate, get people on podcast, get perspectives, state of world, might be our last conversation, could go for anybody, did great interview with mom about 10 years ago, transapocalyptic, utopian for her, fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree

hard dharma, karmic seeds of melt down of family, trauma, wasted years, trouble, lot of years to get on the course that fell apart

a lot of people, children of the hippies

there’s something magical about the fact that here we are kind of at the age our parents were, as a generation, hippie, back to the land 2.0, we had woodstock,the rainbow gathering spawned from that, what are children of hippie’s doing now, actually fulfilling some of those dreams

we have now psychedelic shamanism, and not just acid, the electric kool aid test, these people went back to the land, no shamanic oversight, no elders,

even Geoff Lawton jokes, sad joke, comic tragedy, I wonder how many communes failed because they didn’t understand proper solar orientation, they bought land on north facing slopes, gave themselves an uphill battle on steep slopes facing the shadow of the sun, don’t even know why they melted down

permaculture,

we can learn from a lot of those mistakes, well positioned to demonstrate, and proudly display the next generation of the back to the land movement again at a time my mother talked about in the podcast

people went back to the land at the peak of the OPEC oil crisis in early 1970s

it wasn’t 1969 and summer of love, melt down of haight ashbury into tweaker rape culture madness,

they didn’t go directly from peak of 60s to back to the land, survivalist, apocalyptic thing, cities going to evaporate and collapse, economy gonna collapse, have to head to hills and start building a future

but brought in patriarchy, monoculture, only little bits of eastern mysticism

wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for that

now, okay, this is for me the most pure and karmically cleansed and most righteous set of circumstances to do your thing

are you really these eco artisans the whole world should pay attention to, or destined to fail

may not be the last place I ever work on

do world tour of biomes

if you take permaculture design course you want to be like a army ranger, navy seal, eco macguevery, swiss army knife, want to be deployed in every climate

because you know how to do things like harvest snow melt for nursery underground

be a bad ass shit, being a bad ass eco warrior with all this knowledge

do what special forces and green berets, what if all the engineering and money and investing and capital, everything that went into napalm and agent orange, if instead of destroying ecology, all that cultural engineering of warfare, went into actually creating a more resilient opposition through permaculture

tactical permaculture, make it impossible for them to put land mines in territory you want to defend, created thorny trellising, motes, father in military

being a bad ass, be tactical, have a reason to train, not mma, good for them but

wanna have something I love that’s worthy of defending that would keep me in shape just by working it, origins of kung fu and farming

bit of a tirade from me

MM:

I really like how you brought up that the fruit does not fall far from the tree, parents

definitely feel, that’s a thing that goes on in nature, we’re a part of it

we’re carbon copies of these people we call our parents

we emulate them in so many ways, because of the signature for which they gave us, dna

as father was one of most brilliant men I’ve ever met in my life

I would come forward to father with things I’ve learned, he would share how could he thought it was, what it made him think about

prior too, a little apprehensive, most brilliant man, hey check this out, not knowing what kind of feedback, always positive re-enforcement

honoring that we can do as individuals in relationship to our ancestors, that can be very important for mental scape, how we conductor ourselves in our lives

bro, sounds like a spitting image of your dna tree

I would imagine your mother and father had some similar thing for them

fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree

TP: I should shout out thank you to your father, have to name the library after him

lots of bro time to catch up on, and create that space where we can, aya ceremonies, 2 or 3 generations in one ceremony of family members, pretty epic

we’re healing ourselves, healing each other, healing the masculine, and creating a safe and welcoming space for the feminine to be free to be fully expressed

said before no offense, I kinda feel like, well it goes back to waynes world, fully functional babe layer, you can design for the woman in you, and the woman you want on you, save 9th form of capital for another episode

not a monastery, not womanizers either, between monastery and rapey womanizer cult, we’re probably somewhere in the middle

we need our other ethical brothers to step up, we have some healing to do in our tribe of permaculture, takes a lot of those talks about our fathers and what they did and didn’t teach us

so, that conversation is an open forum, its fun to shoot guns and practice your kicks and punches, equally important to break down and let yourself be, pummelled and tenderized by letting go of trauma, letting brother hood energy find those deep wounds and fractures, more energy buried we could be apply to our tree parenthood, soil parenthood, aquaculture parenthood, seed parenthood

MM:

along those lines of the multigenerations of lineage through psychedelic experience, its always bewildered me, with my psychedelic experiences with mushrooms, everytime I sense my grandfather,at first really weird thing, now a presence I’m aware of, hear and feel mutterings, only knew for short period of my life

at this point it’s very interesting, grandfather said, you’re back, maybe I’m back, it’s nice to be with you

thanks for helping to perpetuate my father,

what can I do for us

great thing

TP: it’s like working for a company, at office chair, every once in a while the owner comes in, the day the owner comes in, checking it out, what’s your name, trippy, ancestor worship is a thing

use it or lose it

I feel in this life, pretty damn abandoned by ancestors, been torn asunder to depths of hell such that ancestors have been blocked off by dark armies of hell, demons, but we’re gonna compost the shit out of them, find that the spirit guides were always there, they were just blocked, we didn’t make it easy for them to get back to us

of all the times I’ve felt I don’t know if I belong here, don’t know what I should be doing here, try to destroy ego, never lasts, very few times and place where I feel there is pure righteousness

liberate this land from all the plastic, multigenerational journey

dance with past and future, toxic gick, pure nature, spirits definitely guiding us

applauding efforts, works cut out for you, each one teach one, clean it up, scale it out

microcosm of what has to be done for the whole planet, on every planet

MM: not controlled by forces that think they’re higher

TP: decentralized, mycopathic, path of mycology

talk about martial arts, personal development, brother hood, men’s group experience that we’re working on and developing synthesis of spiritual, self defense, fitness through working the land, grace of being connected to your yin, notion of not just another wet noodle retreat center, traipsing around in loosest clothing, look at me I look like I just jumped out of a Rambo set, and yet I’m spiritual, dancing, smelling flowers, appreciating all the rainbows, but I can also do some ninja rolls, lift some heavy shit, drag some shit around, and do what’s gotta be done, ideal of a shaolin temple, double dragon fruit

playing up this idea, thinking about, if I was a kid, in the peak of my GI Joe fan boyness I would love to be shooting airsoft guns, tactical training with seed shot pellets, was nature boy, played in nature

how much fun families can be having, applying energy going into videos or going into being a boxer, mma fighter

masculine energy, protection, defense, epic garden project, for masculine energy to balance itself and exhaust itself, place for healthy catharsis, healthy relationships, families, we can both speak to

will be legacy to leave behind, a martial, permaculture, ecological, new martial culture as well, no surprise, or coincidence that we both, been blessed by profound journey’s into what other brutish me respect, not just purple breathers, also to some degree bad asses

love to hear you talk about, the spirit of the dragon fruit that animates you and your kung fu gardening techniques

MM:

made reference to that hippie thing, an elder at one of the rainbow gatherings I was sitting with , great acronym, term hippie, happy intelligent person, pursuing infinite excellence

never my thinking when it came to hippies, people that smelled bad, sat around got high and kept sitting around

just talking isn’t accomplishing,

pursuing infinite excellence, taking it to another level, punk rock perspective

you are a hippie, you smell like scum, I’m your worst enemy, a middle class street punk

and I always resonated with that, really nice to get that different perspective of what hippie could be

greater mobility in body, sought out chi gong master, chinese yoga for lack of better terms

not just stretching

entire philosophy, after about a year of training, sifu said, training is great, very yin, balance out with kung fu, more yang,

open to this, cool

always wanted, wanted to have military training for various reasons it wasn’t something that happened, along same line of hippie

kung fu, nearly synonymous, life mastery

mastering whatever life is for me, to me

level of giving back that comes from all of that

began training kung fu

4-5 days a week sometimes 2 sessions a day, my body started to really get in tune with motions, weapons training, when we think back to the shaolin, where kung fu started

these were farmers, weapons were their farm tools, really started to come through as my body got accustomed to movements, started using these implements in the farm, body now knew how to use them in a more appropriate way

ergonomics

rake or hoe, swing it out with arms, shoulders, and back, or put it out there and move hips back and forth, all power in your hips

spirals up through feet, hips, outward

utilizing that technique with farm tools

new relationship with tools and how to work with land and my body, all in same go

weeding, clearing debris, chopping things down, practicing kung fu

martial arts/life mastery

mastering far more of my body, tools, and tools that work with land

symbiosis, something that we can all benefit to apply in our lives, in any way shape or form

not everybody’s gonna go be a farmer

maybe you’re pushing a vacuum

you can cause strain or you can no cause strain to body, which then causes strain or not on the body, perpetuates through spirit

something that I’m still evolving into I feel like but its very empowering

self reliance

being able to provide for yourself, doesn’t just mean growing food, having land, also means self defense

never know where you’re gonna find yourself

bring those things into all of those life practices, another science that fills one of those holes in that permaculture raft we get pushed out into the water

brings it all back around, self feeding, self perpetuating

mentally physically and spiritually

TP:

brings us full circle

pleasant meanderings, through path of this convo, summary of most of our various contexts, working or grubbin on fruit, whatever it is, comings and goings, as we’ve been carving out this niche for ourselves

always reminds me of the movie that got me first enchanted with martial arts, van damme, blood sport

here we are, tactical permaculture moment going back to deepest roots of romance with nature and martial arts

ninjitsu master, frank dux, he was talking to parents, european parents of young frank dux, depicted to be wine farmers, vineyard, meeting of parents

train with japanese ninjitsu master

frank told me you grow vines, boys like vines need training, martial science brings mind, body, spirit together

we’re fulfilling that prophesy

we’re dudes,

point about military, I mentioned this not too long ago, in jest, valid point

hey america, if you would have given me a real war, or real cause to fight for, I would have served on the front lines, it’s been nothing but bullshit, you don’t get to have this body/mind

don’t give traumatic brain injury, lead poisoning, blow my limbs off, make me unable to sustain a relationship, cut my VA benefits for using cannabis

you don’t get any of that shit, not in this lifetime, maybe that could change, who knows what battles will need to be fought

the joke I made, we’re not we’re not less of bad asses that we didn’t get military training, we’re actually more, if we can be, without having the training of those instructors, and we can train our damn selves, read same manuals, same marksmanship, survival training, mindset of discipline, selection

break you down

I was my own drill segerant, life circumstances carved my ass from cookie dough to wood

health, wellness, survival, comes from putting skin in the game

better to have warrior in garden than gardener in war,

debilitating malformed meme of utopian pacifism

idea that we all need to be genderless, a mush of micro trauma egg shell walking, I’m a man, I embrace that, I don’t need impose, I embrace and love and support cherish diversity, space for everyone

phrase, vin armani brought to attention:

seed conversations of what I’d like to call and have been implementing

permaculture training experience for tactically minded, some of the best training, with hardcore lesbian women, guns and ammo, blades, bows and arrows plaster their walls instead of boy band posters, those are my best friends

ongoing thing that, I want to be the guy that the butch warrior lesbians like to play with on a full moon when they feel like, interesting romance, another story

have to cover my ass and say it’s not hyper masculine, toxic masculine militia

who wants to be securing the perimeter, that’s what we need first, can’t have whole tribe or family unless we can defend them

call to action, strong willed, strong minded, disciplined, people who want to be bangin sticks as they say in pekiti tirsia kali training, continual life long conditioning and training, being a warrior , really mean something for good cause

quote: michael hopf, those who remain,

hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times,

put that in your pipe and smoke it

enough from me

over and out, roger

thank you again

MM: honor brother, insightful, exciting having this conversation, whoever you are out there listening, hope you were able to glean something from it

summary, I feel like, initially I’d stated how going back to permaculture, can be applied to anything that you do, require taking a permaculture design course with instructor you’d like to learn from, and personality types are thing

I have studied a lot of things in my short time here, does always come back to the principles of permaculture

when I educate others on health, they don’t know it but they’re getting a quick permaculture design course for the body

utilizing all these principles around the landscape we call our bodies

a bunch of cells living together

body, gardening cells, out there gardening soil conditions to provide foods for our cells to utilize

its one of the most valuable trainings that I’ve ever had in my life,

people that also take these course, share similar sentiment

that’s about it

end this with as mc mycopath

end a lot of health lectures with a rap, haven’t done this one in a while, see how it goes

TP: gotta get that out in the drum circle, put some beats on that, hippie drum beats on that

more to come

this conversation is to be continued, next, while we’re still tying up lose ends, give audio tour of integrated systems and logic of design of systems, address

situational report, what we’ve got going what we need help with, if people have time or resources or expertise, what’s been established what’s being established, hearing a bit about what we’re processing, actual road map of what we’re doing, laid out the backstory

of what could be an epic opportunity for ourselves

all sliding scales of wealth, we’re providing

free offerings online, all kinds of content, you’ll be whippin up a podcast, holding the camera for each other to do a lot of the teaching we want to

following up with some a/v content

be comin at cha again soon

big love to you and to all the forces seen and unseen that made it possible to be at this point

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Permaculture Eco-Warriors Establish The Moshram Part 1 TPP280

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In this episode I’m joined by MC Mycopath for a two part series on the past, present, and future of his personal permaculture journey and the establishment of The Moshram

My Non Verbatim Show Notes

MM:

started out…trouble maker

parents id as ruthless child

stuck me into acting classes, young age

outlet, unrelenting energy

most of childhood, child actor

kindergarten or first grade, hollywood, 7 or 8 years

with that, element of not really going to school, always had to go to auditions, for anything and everything, tv shows, movies, photoshoots,

state law, school for 3 hours, after, in a car driving to hollywood

30-45 percent of time, on-sets throughout elementary school and middle school

lot of really cool work, met great people

tv shows

terminator 2

really great look into the world

moved to san diego, took me out of lime light

distraught, in child actor phase didn’t have to go on audition, just get phone calls, hey you’re hired

once no longer in that realm, I’m a performer, its really in me

astrologically, birth date, title for every day of the year, my day is the grand stage, seemed very fitting, been on stage most of life

when no longer in eye of the camera, some guys that I was in high school with, had a punk band, asked to audition, became the front man of that band, we rocked the so cal punk scene at the right time, right place right time

so cal punk scene blowin up in the 90s, part of that, amazing ride, meet incredible people, see amazing places at a young age

sound recording program

kept furthering it

life would have it, never know certain things are gonna derail you, spin you off/push in another direction

near death experience, NDE

one day, heart stopped, really into meditation

wanted to see how long of breaths I could take, minute in, minute out, strange mental objective, 1.5 in 1.5 out, during that my heart stopped

learned I needed a bit more pressure on the valve to keep that heart pumping, pressure from lungs

that’s its own crazy story, insights gained

done a lot of research on nde,s majority similar story

found myself in consciousness, not in my body, two hands in front of me, a choice, one to come back here, one to stay there, red and blue pill scenario

chose to come back here

flood of information, really expanded consciousness, awareness,

all the sudden looking at body, re entered body, heart began to beat, whoa

looking at friends crying over my body

heart started to beat, freaked out

told me I was dead for a couple minutes

seemed like eternity

really took me on a whole different path

one of the things that came through that transmission, “go back to the earth”

fundamental premise of my entire experience here, ever since then

around 18 years old at the time

next time I ever spoke to somebody, really weird place

whole life tweaked, isolated

next person I spoke to: appalacian trial,

all I heard was go back to the earth, sounds like that’s the way to go back to the earth

cool, dropping everything, go to the trail, go to the woods see where life takes me

hiked the trail,

8-9 months

somethings I’ve learned in life, you can’t prepare for

think I know where I’m going, what I’m gonna do, what it will take, wasn’t true

broken in first few days

but I’m a very persistent individual, eyes on prize, had to keep going, went out with buddy,

didn’t have same persistence, can be grueling, being exposed to all elements, every day

first couple weeks, nothing but rain, head to toe, all your stuff, tweak your mental space and physical space

I kept on truckin, met amazing people

opened up to graciousness that exists in others, re-instilled my love of my fellow man, and compassion

coming from punk scene, I had lyrics I don’t exactlyi resonate with at this point, some that I do

some that…fuck the world, FTW, about to tattoo it on my forearm, thankfully I didn’t although now I would take that off to “fruit the world” so it’d still be applicable

back to the trail, ever expanding

stress fractures in foot

parked on largest waterfall on east coast, hung out, put foot in water til inflammation went down

while doing that, came across hippies, definitely open, but my punk background, I eat hippies for lunch,

expanded self, open to people, great energy, great passion for earth, not entirely at purple breather end of things, could resonate with their cause, going to rainbow gathering, never heard of such a thing, enlightened me,

cool,

decided to walk from florida to pennsyl

I was in the middle of their path

I said I’m going to gathering as well

hitch hiking excursion to gathering

really phenomenal thing.

TP: lots of good things, criticisms, some of most trusted mentors, hardcore devotees, know it’s a mecca, been on bucket list

MM: really opened me up even more, at first felt a little out of place, first rainbow gathering I went to in 1999, walking down a trail, punk kid sitting down by a river, cleaning some clothes or something, boom box, rocking old school punk, hippies walking by , turn that crap off, negativity towards punk kid, see him giving them a finger

people think it’s all love, it’s all everything at the gathering

invitation hippies had given me, paraphrasing, an invitation to a gather for people of all walks of life to pray for world peace

punk kid getting yelled out, connected with him, reflect back at myself, we are all here, I get that kid, alright, dont’ know, haven’t talked to him, get what he’s dealing with, really all walks of life

I was hooked, first gathering there for 3 months, went with 10 dollars, sustained my life for 3 months, dug a lot of shitters, made a lot of food, a lot of keeping fire going, hot water, it was a magical experience, helped me realize importance of feeling like you’re needed

getting kick backs of food, couldn’t ask for much more, sustenance

really changed my life

ever since 1999, only missed 3 rainbow gatherings

16-17 I’ve attended, really feel like family

see faces I’ve been seeing for 20 years

can’t say I connect with everybody, I have differences

no electronics, rules, flashlight, thanks for killin my night vision

TP: I was in the tree sits in oregon, early 2000s, lot of people from rainbow gathering would go to tree sits, a lot of memes, how I learned more about the subculture,

harshing mellow with lights, I can commiserate on both sides now, one up man ship, paul wheaton, some protesters they like to beat you over the head with their protest sign

MM: things have really changed, people walking down the trail text messaging

everything adapts and advances, so has the family, been interesting to watch

altered my perception of what can be, there is an opportunity for us to throw up some kitchens, cultivate and harvest foods, prepare them and share them

not a lot of cultivation taking place, not to say a lot of farmers don’t grow specific rows just to give to the family

farmers pull up from a trailer, from any corner of the country that they brought to feed people that share this vision

TP:

while on rainbow family, for a moment, mentioned before, I personally have only heard of the mythic legends of rainbow and burning man, wanted to experience both, spoken or unspoken tension between the two

segway of tactical permaculture, want to go to these places, hang out, participate in holistic debauchery, escape retreat get out of city

but also have urban guerrilla, urban permaculture, burning man and rainbow come to same place and time, in the city, actually come in and seize an urban area and print out a permaculture design and be a lasting net benefit,

boom festival in portugal, not just temporary autonomous zone, but a permaculture autonomous zone

hopefully be there some day, idea of a more applied use of all those ethics, all the people, ability to raise a barn, and party, and whatever

wanna talk about, so you have not been to burning man, have been in this other tribe, other clan, if you want to segway into if you’re real visionary and want to transform the world, bring the candle into darkness

MM:

never been to burning man, certainly know plenty of burners, heard stories, seen pictures, videos, on and on

the collaboration, definitely can be a great thing, from a rainbow perspective, speak for no body, no one can speak for another, just a bunch of individuals, going some place to collaboratively exist and pray for wold peace, beyond that there’s nothing,

can’t apply for permits, can’t get land under said name

gone to a lot of vision councils, can take days to over a week, learned a lot from some of the elders

other rainbow family listening, apologize if I botch it, if not mistaken, navajo offered land for rainbow family to collectively gather and stay, autonomous zone on tribal lands

because no body can represent the rainbow family, no body’s able to accept that

find that is a really strong element of rainbow ethics, I cannot speak for you, you cannot speak for me, we’re all autonomous here, awesome

also see how there’s a level of hindrence there, doesn’t provide framework to collectively gather and build these spaces for generations of time, just pop up events, a few months

what is the entity that would cooperatively manage that space, enough nah votes within rainbow, operates on consensus, if you don’t get consensus, you don’t get to move forward, empowering thing, slows things down, really good objective, within any form of governance, the slower it can move the healthier, jumping the gun..pitfalls

no body represents anybody, except for themselves

TP: brings up fork, validating sense that going back to paleolithic, presettled nomadic cultures, gypsies, you don’t collect diseases from animals, don’t pollute an area if you’re always nomadic, shifting, relocating, horde less stuff, less material objects,

huge respect, as anthropologist of radical subcultures and movements, I love the idea you don’t burn the spot, set upa lace, do your thing then move on, maybe cycle back again

two different modes, having a permanent location,

also notion or stay at location, own rent, squat, or be nomadic, multiple locations

practical permaculture informed, project, objective, mission,

go to this site, clean up brown field, plant stuff, cycle back in a few years, for next phase, more of a deployment,

installation work, facilitated

what if you had drones and different party lights, projecting lazer lights on contour lines for people to stomp and dig and build, permaculture design, light show that displays design on landscape, different teams all in the grove, cadence, dancing, next level stuff

MM: brother, that concept blows my mind, rainbow gathering maybe 2001, montana, amazing gathering hung out with ram dass, saw bob dylan, awesome folks out there

we went there, always an element for vision counsel, going to places that need healing, not just restorative work from an ecological perspective, also from spiritual, energetic perspective

places where massive battles have been fought, concept of altering the energetic pattern that is locked into that land, with this loving thing that takes place at rainbow, 4th of july

silence that takes place, from sunrise until rainbow noon, silence broken by children in parade,

silence, gathering around peace pole, ceremonially put into earth, so as we can direct our energy into the pole, goes into the earth and up to the heavens, one of the ways to infuse and release the new energy and the old energy that is ingrained in that space

ecologically, always found it incredible

between 10k and 40k people, a lot of pee and poop, with contour lines, seen this, if we could dig our shitters on contour lines these could be some seriously fertile beds for sprawling of wildlife plants

going back to montana situation, about 10 years later, went back

hit me one morning, opening tent, looking out seeing what could have been had we had some constructive planning 10 years previous

whenever choice was made to go back to montana, had we had the forsight to put into some type of plan

nomadically hit these spots, come back around to them maybe every 10-15 years, see ecological benefit

usually people talking about impact from negative perspective

clean up crew, site impeccable when we left, no devastation that ever took place

benefited greatly from being at that site

we could have really, all of us brought something with us to share to spread diversity of species, whatever survives, the conditions for it to occur are there

its happy, everything’s comingling,

have things we’d be able to harvest

cultivating is the hardest part

fruits of labor, 10 years later, would be a beautiful thing

TP: awesome, beautiful exploration, leads us to getting back to timeline

rainbow gatherings national forests, different vibe

who knows, just designing, curious, what was that process of evolution from you being a nature boy, having done the hiking, closer to earth, how did you become an ecological designer

MM: had heard the term permaculture, I believe first at a rainbow gathering

reading agenda 21 manual at library, spending days reading, UN soft touch plan for ways to organize and mobilize the direction of the planet, didn’t agree with it, banks running things, how they’ll be running thing, struck odd nerve, doesn’t seem holistic

somebody came up to me mentioning permaculture

couple years later, had hitch hiked around country about 2 years straight, came back to so cal, culture shock so heavy

la to san diego, no way sticking around, vibration not sitting well, go on other side of road, got out of california,

northern minnesota,

nicest place I’d ever been, relocated

up there, in a very tight knit community, one of most artistic, very socially involved

one of my buddies, really into permaculture, purchased designer manual, permaculture 1, lot of words I didn’t understand, just read a book that I didn’t quite get, then came across,

what we’d now call meetups, started going out,

permaculture in cuba, created design, implemented design with people of cuba, one of the gentlemen on that team, host of meet up,

tipped off of concept of greening the desert, from that point on, if you can seriously take desert biome and make it green, there’s something cool going on here, always wanted to participated in that something cool

we get busy in life, at time was contractor, living in housing co-op, took a lot of my time

building/grounds chair person, chair for funding and development, co-chair for finance, wrapped up, wasn’t pushing as hard as I could, educational/implementation of permaculture frame work

flame worker, glass artist, blowing glass

started biodiesel co-op, wonderful girlfriend

time was eaten up, interested in furthering permaculture studies, permaculture design course, nothing hit right time wise

one year

biodiesel shuts down in winter, large demand for biodiesel in fuel oil heaters, ways to market biodiesel, I went to washington, oregon, northern california, networking, to obtain biodiesel in the winter

4 month journey, in california, on the coast, go to san diego, visit family

friend offered work, doing sign installation, took work, paying amazing, while on one of job sites, co-worker backed over me with a truck

didn’t have NDE, another hard turn in my life, curses can turn out to be blessing

could not walk, told would never walk again, not an easy thing to sit with

after going through the heavy bouts of depression, I’ve always wanted to take a permaculture design course, I’m doin it

started me down the higher levels of my understanding with permaculture

2 week intensive

mind was blown

to say the least, all I wanted to do was perpetuate installations utilizing the techniques and understandings I had gained

took another course, and another course

heavy amount of info, retention, very small, remember things at the very beginning, the very end

a lot of material in the middle to get lost in the ether of the mind

kept taking it, again, again

wanted to better understand

fill in gaps

after a few pdcs, remember speaking with one of my mentors and teachers

late great, toby hemenway

really want to go to school, considering constitutional law or sustainable agriculture

education through university system, Toby looks at me, pulled a Bill Mollison on me, can you give me an example of a sustainable agricultural system,

not that I’m aware,

then how you gonna study

right, so true

so

I found myself perplexed,

you need to do whatever you think is best for you

if you’re interested in studying plants, study horticulture, how plants relate to soil and how soil relates to plants

have yet to meet lawyer who’s a happy individual

work with plants, tend to be happy

gonna pursue horticulture degree

amazing program

after that

heard permaculture described

younger brother, pdc in thailand

metaphor for permaculture

pdc is like being given a raft with a bunch of holes in it, get pushed out to sea in raft, have to plug up all the holes

holes are different sciences, permaculture is taking all the sciences and weaving them together

great metaphor

I’ve become certified in so many specialty modalities, gray water, holistic range management, super adobe construction, soil food web, mycology,

it’s endless, the sciences, thermodynamics

the more we understand these things , the more holistic of a design we can create, and implement

still at a point where I need crutches or a walker to walk

came across a biochemist, that gets quads walking

I’m not a quad, just needed assistance in walking

biochemist hit me with truths, unable to refute

run for money with body

inflammation went down, pain went away, could walk again, limited mobility because of contracts

regained mobility

taking in data

learn what biochemist did

studied with 3 biochemists

live blood analysis

things to be learned from every corner

biochem made sense, because of soil science

stake functions, things already learned

different realms

become much of my life at this point

passionate of regenerating living systems

soil, water, human terrain, animals,

certified in all sorts of modalities

all come together

in this web that we call permaculture

permaculture is really, not gardening

it’s something that you apply to whatever you do, could be a brain surgeon, apply principles in your surgeon practice

as long as reaping harvest from what we cultivate in a holistic manner

permanence within culture

everything gardens

fruits vegetables, fungal systems,

monetary, capital, things and stuff if that’s what is needed

holistic manner

all technically practicing permaculture

TP: permaculture rabbit hole

infinite fractal patterns, not just set of tools and techniques, philosophy, interdisciplinary science

attempts to define it

sustainable human settlement design

warren brush, living beautifully, everyones got a different way

permaculture is just applied ecology, repackaged ecology

true but not end all be all

is permaculture a cult, paul wheaton, put the cult in permaculture, joking

cynicism, too expense, hacked permaculture design course, permaculture party pack torrent

mentor, lets hack pdc certificate, I’ve put in work, read black book cover to cover, 72hour course with bill and geoff, king and crown prince, done the work, even went to see my punk band, considered that to be my talent show, year long membership, traded him one of first permaculture podcast websites

did our own value add/function stacking design of a student and master

made it work, to get the pdc into the hands of the working class, not enough has been done to get out of mlm pyramid scheme

people don’t make their money back on course

how many certified permaculture designers made the cost of the course back

this is the most priceless education you could ever get, if you take this course and don’t figure out how to make a sustainable living doing whatever you love…

I don’t think you can say it’s too expensive, can say it’s not accessible, amount of time, you need, multiple courses over weekends

radical movement, came out of various earth sciences, disgruntled looks at destructive poisoning, end game of industrial agriculture,

how to look at ethnology and anthropology of horticultural societies

frame work, infinitely scale and branch out in water, soil, trees, land forms, biomes

all from ecology, plus ecological anthropology

sophisticated academic scientific methodical

what were some big take aways, ah has from first course

when it clicked for you

super practical, how come this is not already mainstream

first moments of revelations

educational piece

quick intro to permaculture

MM:

crucial element obtained initially through pdc, understanding that the perfect system is the system that we are all birthed into, nature, nature doesn’t have flaws, as far as I’m aware of, it’s all creating its all consuming, everything feeds and everything eats everything else so there is no waste, fascinating

every ecological niche is included there

main thing with that would be observation of any of those elements

bees, ants, fungus, bacteria, trees, we can just go on and on, how water flows, on and on, comes back to these elements, naturally occuring

something aware of before first pdc

some of most successful systems built, we all use, the internet, sending packages through modems, and routers

my understanding the awareness of how to make that an effective system was done by watching ants, and how ants transfer data along their path,

mimicked how ants transfer data, this is how we’re transferring data right now, ,audio, files, the way that’s going to get from point a to point b mimics pattern for which ants send signals down the line

primary things clicked for me, first pdc

we’re already doing this, just not on a holistic scale, just in these little niches, and people win awards for it

observing nature, apply its patterns to whatever you’re looking to do

standing back and observing

mind gets in the way, nature doesn’t have that

observation, then implementation, perpetual process

never a one and done thing

everything is revolving around observation of the system you have designed to mimic nature

merely humans a piece of nature

our ability is hindered

we have to sit back and observe and see where we were incorrect

see if our observation changes the course of the pattern

we can be benefactors of that production and consumption

TP: love that, some new giving me chills awesome riffs, definitely be integrating that, hadn’t heard about the ants,

for the person who is now thinking okay permaculture, its a way to somehow in the course of the course you will feel confident to begin thinking using the algos of nature

exemplifying that logic

closing that loops, inputs and outputs, systems feedings systems, things be elegantly designed, not a lot of wasted effort, not a lot of toil, so much leveraging of energy, pretty much infinite coming from the sun, capturing and storing, trip trap trip trap, capturing and storing energy, putting it work, gets in engineering

early permies, electrical and mechanical engineers, impulse to construct and build, fix, take apart,

masculine, tendencies, exploring nature

balance of energy of gaia and energy of guys

genders in between

once you get to point of super power of thinking like nature,

being abundant, feed yourself and community, heal landscapes

scale, fold fertility onto itself, green eco magic, green the city green the city, do anything

bill mollison, real rebel, reapplying more natural paradigm to death culture of industrial chemical, agriculture and farming

bridge in time line to where you’re doing commercial enterprise, taking horticulture and permaculture, fighitng the system of agriculture, by subverting it from the periphery, creating new strategies to feed people, that subvert the evil empire of ag,

how you deployed yourself for permaculture and against the dominant paradigm of ag

MM: a mantra I really have embodied within myself, creating the conditions for things to occur

biomimicry, learning how to create the conditions for things to occur, then standing back to see if you were right, if it worked

shotgun blast with certain things, put out a 1000 seeds, don’t always have a 1,000 seeds pop up, if you’re lucky, half will

not of same species, may not be a aware of whats going to cultivate under x given conditions

a lot of time talking about all these systems generally roll back to some form of capital, it made me think about a great book that’s out there, the 8th forms of capital, and the brother that has brought us together, while he has had amazing implementations of design, he’s also had an even greater effect from a social capital perspective, being able to bring us together, creating conditions for whatever to occur

group that we’re all associated with, through his social capital, knowing all of us, create conditions for things to occur

co-aligned over the years, and at this point co-aligned on a project moving forward

TP: permabros

beloved brother, 2009-10, first started hanging out, seeing these giant wall size dry erase boards with mind maps

epic, back yard and front yard permaculture food forest, really living the dream, tickles me to no end, this very moment could have very well been a thought bubble on one of his mind maps

#wetrainedforthis

we need to do our craft, take center stage in this moment, ambulance chaser, I’m doomsday prepper, permies seen as apocalyptic

realized, the curse of that world utopian, or utopianism, way for realists to moderate the visionaries

such a curse to be put in that category, destined to fail, like 99% of back to land projects of 70s, may as well stay right in center of system and follow their rules

I know how to hack that curse, as the world gets more dystopian, whatever was utopian 10 years ago, life before cell phones, families talk to each other at restaurants, reading books

utopianism is driving forward looking in rear view mirror

utopian urge to live like the ancestors

knifes edge of industrial progress

utopian that’s easy, parents they chopped wood, but we’re gonna have robots doing it

myopic cultural amnesia

bring it to what the fuck we are doing now

we have been in the shadows, training, doing our own things, and hoping that we can create personal abundance, share the teaching, fruits of labor, no pun intended, brings us into full on the story of this site we’re on, without blowing our opsec and giving it away

so the story of this property in the best way you can deliver it without blowing our cover until we’re ready to unveil offerings to the public

you were already in utopian impossible future before me, you’ve been in this very sweet spot for a quite a while, many things done right

zelda flute planted me here

said vows to spirits, I take care of you, you keep me here

ancestors, animals, plants, minerals, what do you need from me, how can I stay here

big slice of heaven, promised land

big thank you, back to question, what’s the story of this magical little slice of heaven on earth?

Eco-Punks Hacking The Permaculture Design Course TPP208

Play

Ben with Bouquet

In this episode I’m joined by my revered permaculture teacher and issuer of my permaculture design certificate. To protect his identity and allow him appropriate distance from the extreme edginess (permies will laugh) of my current path, he’s taken on a sci fi pseudonym. We discuss the origin story of our epic collaborative brother-from-another-motherhood. We bonded instantly many years ago over our mutual love of nature, science, diy tech, radical activism, the punk politics of resistance, and the unmatched sophistication of subversiveness to be found in the permaculture design movement.

At the time our paths crossed, I had been exposed to permaculture for about 10 years, but only within the year previous to our meeting in the late 2000s had I become seriously engaged in study of the design science. He appeared in my life at the best of all times for me to appreciate his insights and accomplishments. I put my best efforts into earning his respect and approval as a budding permaculturalist. As per the original intent of the founders of permaculture, certified designers are encouraged to develop a mastery of the system in order to embolden them to create their own certification course curriculum with adherence to the fundamental contents and structure of the original permaculture design course. I was blessed to establish a barter relationship with him so that I had an extended mentorship which included and transcended the standard PDC curriculum with more oversight and technical support than would be normally accessible in a traditional 72 hour course. My one-on-one training took place over the course of about a year and a half. He provided guidance through my designs spanning apartment scale gardens, to a warehouse parking lot edible park installation,  to semi-rural farmstead, and various business and community projects in between.

The intent of our discussion in this episode beyond reminiscing on the past, was to establish the integrity of the lineage of my training, and once again seek approve for one of my designs, in this case, the design of my customized permaculture design course curriculum, an adaptation of the way he provided the course for me.

To be expected, I integrate elements of eco and sacred sexuality with tasteful aesthetics and scientific maturity, he provides his feedback and ultimate approval. We share a sense of deep honoring for the irrepressible hacker mindset of the co-founder Bill Mollison. We dare to presume he’d be proud of my attempts to design for the sector of sexual energy, which without a doubt is the most powerful, yet least valued and most poorly managed energy flow pattern in sustainable human settlement design and engineering.

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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin eligible events Wall, Township on podcast episode number 2089 being joined by Paul Atreides who is the mysterious figure who has played a very important role in my my personal development as a permaculture a designer’s he is the man who I would say provided for me a one-on-one very intensive long-term permaculture training that resulted in me having the confidence in me to issue me the coveted permaculture design certificate which is a 2 to display to the world saying that one has completed the 72-hour minimum course curriculum to be then qualified to operate commercially using the word permaculture according to the guidelines laid out by the the co-founder Bill Mollison many years ago that the late great Bill Mollison and so for those who are not familiar with the term permaculture we’ll get into that a bit but it’s it’s part of how I promote my work as a permaculture designer and Tantra accounts that help people grow spiritually sexually and ecologically and I really feel that I’ve been able to bring a permaculture perspective to a lot of the healing modalities that are out there that sort of what’s often considered woo and new age and energy work and all that you know really bringing a grounded earth science perspective to my work and and all that really comes literally thanks to this man here who for various reasons we’re going to keep his his true identity obscured but we’ll just kind of get into what I what I intend to do is is take this topic of Tanks hacking permaculture to tell both of our stories about how we became radicalized through the punk rock movement and got into college activism and in basically at some point discovered the glory of the permaculture design system and then put our hacker Minds to work to figure out how to count of Avail ourselves of more open source content and actually start to open source permaculture that was its original intention anyway so it was supposed to be resistant to proprietary mechanisms resistant to Academia and but also conducive to people’s right livelihood and conducive to successful businesses and all of that is encoded into the prime directive in the ethics but you know something I’ve come to to know and love and I have grapes with certain aspects of how the movement has evolved then we’re going to talk a bit about our feelings are true feelings about about that stuff too so this is hopefully just going to be a a primer on what what the punk attitude how the punk attitude approaches the permaculture design system and how both of us are working and there are various ways to to really further further the the objectives that that we’ve been working towards for so long using this technology so with all that said call please share what you would like to do about your journey discovering permaculture where you what you’ve accomplished with it within your boundaries of of secrecy about your you know personal details and in time place and manner but maybe some of your accomplishments and and certainly how you’re feeling about the movement today and then we’ll go from there yeah I think you mentioned in any little bit more time and you conversation were now was the creation and Company drive for college activism and full and total Embrace of the Bay Area radical Anarchist activist movement or late night into the early 2000s and there was an awful lot of activities going on that were crime initiate and instigate and inspire people like being in myself to further educate ourselves and look into interesting things about ecology and direct action and art and we can put on different lenses and and look at landscape in different ways and throughout those experiences and Inspirations and I was introduced to the idea permaculture alongside with the writings of philosophical take on natural farming we’re just of enormous impact in my view of the world and my desire to a brave nature and and push a naturalistic approach to rewilding or not necessarily rewilding but even gardening in harmony I’ll take a moment to push this back to YouTube and and and see if anything that I just mentioned kind of jumped out at you and there’s a point that we should send out a little bit more and me and the sky oh yeah I think if we’re going on a certain timeline maybe we could talk about just the from a Terence McKenna perspective there’s this like a Creo time-wave coiling of of of of history repeating where I would say the the anti-globalization movement was a sort of unfortunately not as maybe right maybe it was maybe it wasn’t but it certainly was like the closest thing to a Berkeley 60s movement that had there has been since 9/11 and like we both had that experience of a major boost in that belief that we were part of something timely that we were part of a revolution that we could like almost snap our fingers and topple the entire global system of you know the power elite and that we had you know we had the numbers we had the intelligence and but it also wasn’t sustainable in failed and numerous ways and I’m wondering if I have for you if you want to talk about how the the deeper timelines that permaculture opens up those intergenerational timelines of Earth repair and stewardship you know how that reconciled for you because I fucking burnt out after that yeah that’s that’s really interesting point in the in the 90s to be a more powerful experience than being in Seattle in November 1999 Seattle protest with kind of AA Earth shattering experience if you will or a young eco-activist it was like it was happening it would happen and things were going and you’re absolutely right it’s there seems to be a pressure on on the world bad things were going to change and things were going to be different because it’s people power couple of things to my timeline changed shortly after that I finished calling and the role that I felt I had so much agency in campus activism and so looking for other avenues to exercise the distance our inspiration art, culture whatever you want to call it I was able to hunt down experiences I’m on farm and odd jobs and several International permaculture experiences in putting a PDT in Central America and Pacific in Central America as well my in an ecological framework for you in the latter part of 1000 seconds. Mutual previous experiences with and later drive toward permaculture are an expedition and restoration really drove by a friendship and and collaboration that I know you personally took some major inspiration from and took the opportunity in having a relationship with me through really dive into permaculture stuff and and build York as he did mention time to talk about that yeah I would yet not to reveal anything about you know the the circumstances but it was all of my best efforts to create a sort of lightning rod you know Lighthouse effect of green Consciousness into the punk rock movement like this was still internet was not that sophisticated around the mid-2000s but it was sophisticated enough to wear if I recall you were you would found my old website and where I was doing a lot of you know community outreach doing different projects in the you know I miss SoCal area and and Beyond and just kind of really really trying to find the punks who were not born to die in the gutter like the discharge song in that were actually like figuring out how to reclaim the lost his penis that we that we lost when we when we threw out all the tie dye and you know it’s it landed for some people you know we were able to maintain a certain you know edgy vibin aesthetic but also get you no punks into Gardens and it was you know to me at that time I was you know in my mid-twenties I was trying to create the infrastructure for a healthy ecological Punk hood that I didn’t have when I was a teenager and so it’s always that idea of like living vicariously through through the Next Generation if you can to like kind of fuel yourself from the wounds that you were that you were a mistakes you made it or not so I built this organization and and it was bringing in like lots of of it was really effective at at resonating with people at in finding him so you would come into that. Medium and and that sort of modality tunnel and and at that time I was ya like you said very enthusiastic and charge to two how to get my head wrapped around permaculture and get get to doing it like there’s so many practical modules of experience that you want to have once you start to learn about it and you just want to be like guess I can check that off I have experience doing this and that and that Matt and I kind of cleaned from you when we had started creating a sort of time banking sort of relationship to exchange value and and you were basically my consultant on retainer and I would have your input and an oversight over my very very humble and very microscale to begin with no permaculture designs and you were Supply me with seeds Doc and worms and all of the starter kit stuff as well as the very Advanced and high-level intelligence and and pattern thinking and all of that the more just a more advanced find a Specs on top of the the Practical stuff and the actual cuttings from New Zealand spinach you know it’s like if you haven’t had somebody give you a cutting from New Zealand spinach then basically go home cuz you haven’t even started doing okay you know what it’s like those of those moments where you realize holyshit what what can’t you propagate vegetatively you know now I want to know where I can just go to the local you know Mexican food forest garden in in in like oh and trim things coming out of the defenses and and just stick them in pots and see what sprouts and then end up having grapefruit grape Vines and passion fruits you know choking you to death and all that fun stuff so I mean that’s what comes to mind thinking about how you were able to sort of get me set in motion and in and that was a good I don’t know you’re maybe couple years of pretty much ya me really a greeting from you everything and anything that I could end and I think Dad we’re just we were just figuring out how to kind of hack the LA landscape and the SoCal Landscaping literally hacking off cuttings of things in literally knowing how to spot a legume Tree in a Home Depot parking lot. yeah absolutely it’s a practice in observation of your surroundings and pattern recognition to actually realize what resources you have there I think what you had set up for your website with was very compelling in in several senses as I will keep spinning back to the to the Punk theme but so many aspects of the little punk eco-activist literature in underground DIY magazines from existence do inside products to anything produced by crimefeed or Slug and lettuce there was just such a a vivid body of riding of people doing things other places in the country where if she needs easier to grab Squat and start propagating 606 resor to get something going east coast remember vividly remember reading I think it was where people were you know pack keep moss and Kudzu seeds and and bombing freeway on-ramp and overpass areas just to Rebecca Tate in a create Wildlife Corridor so do you need an inspiring and your connection with the with a puncture unity and what you were trying to create with your organization was an excellent way to connect with something like that and he said I was able to help you out bring you inspiring little super easy things like I need healing spinach cuttings or starter just an interesting thing that can happen when people have inspiration and some passion and even just a little bit of awareness of what they can do to try and get things going yeah man as you say that I’m thinking about all of the places that that tiny little bag of worms propagated to to out so many different people who were who were got that is like at a supply and and they live on to this day and then like they’re the happiest worms that ever lived you know a safe and well taken care of night that’s what’s so beautiful is like you just you get in alignment with I think you know one of your favorite sayings back in the day was and you can probably fill them you know the gap of of where you heard it from but life creates the conditions conducive to more life and that’s kind of like a you know if I see it like a Zen meditation calling you know you can really take that to the fucking bank unit I will jump in real quick and and attribution to that phrase and sentiment and that is teaching from Janine benyus and the organization that is doing absolutely beautiful work to inspire engineers and designers to draw inspiration from nature as well as generate reason to preserve nature and wild men and sacred leave Revere what and it’s all good I think it’s just a distinctly and beautifully captured in an utterance like life created conditions conducive to more life and that’s just totally beautiful you can meditate on that for years and enjoy wear those. And meditation on tell me what was the name of the organization again I got you said Janine Vina Jack Janine Pena venue and they would certainly be easily found with some Google cool alright so with all that said for people who have not discovered much about permaculture I think it would be good idea to episode and I’ll put a link in the show notes in fact I will I will tell I can tell you in just a second which episode it was right now one second it is it is episode number 114 where I did intro to permaculture in ecological design and that was just a a mini-lecture that I gave in a backyard permaculture site that I was working on it was also a budding goddess Temple of swords and and so in that episode you can get more of Amore fully developed introduction to permaculture experience on this podcast but it would be great to just for the sake of this one bring it back to you in your own words as a student like for you to be a student Bill Mollison is like studying Jeep Commando with someone with the you know Dan inosanto and end with Bruce Lee sensitive like a lineage to the source that I appreciate as well and I think you know it’s kind of I don’t know what to say straight but but they’ve adapted the permaculture design course in ways that I think are great it’s appropriate for it to be adapted but there is something to say I guess I should say if you’re up permaculture designer there’s enough Bill Mollison material out there in enough sort of ripped PVC audio and video files out there that that you should know what the source of the original course how that was you know the the structure of how this information was shared by him so I guess I would say it’s if it’s valuable for me to hear you say now especially now years later from your Beginnings in my Beginnings like if you’re asked to introduce this subject to people what’s your elevator pitch for it for permaculture okay I can’t give Justice with an elephant in the elevator pitch is the marriage of the idea that permanent NP sustained through culture so culture does not have to degrade nature Mall smart energy usage can be put toward building resilient Landscapes and cultures that have the ability to become richer and more stable over time that you did it. You nailed it now you can go a feel free for that what I call the stuck in the elevator pitch where you get to just go off and stuff with me so you know Paul Atreides and his words can kill cell would love to have the cloak of anonymity for for certain aspects of things that I could stay right right now Genesis of a permaculture as a marketing started with with Bill Moulton and call Bill Morrison from experiment but really good at marketing and people like you and I with so many brilliant ideas that we couldn’t stop thinking about it it seems so that you know and normally is satisfied disaffected 20 some year old would probably most likely be playing video game chose to read something like a 10 pounds text book about pattern languages and trees and climate and climate tropes and and I don’t know if some other topics from the manual back out there they caught your attention that you spent hours reading on bed yeah for me I see the chapter 14 stuff about the some of the more social I mean obviously I loved all of the ecological stuff but when it got to the the chapter 14 material all about how we can actually hack and re-engineer our social and economic Dynamics to share abundance and to really I mean you know I mean how many how many punk shows did I preach at to the crowd and every half the people were blacked out there was unconscious on consensual basically off all forms of rape all forms of violence all forms of just complete debauchery and just I mean so the and then and then suppose that two is like super hyper leftist socialist organizations that would be a protest and I’m like well they seem like they’ve got people kind of like saluting this ideology and they said somewhat more organized and they get more shit done but then it’s like I got this authoritarian by band and I didn’t see and then you have people like maybe the the hippies and the Rastafarians in Arab super into the Dow of the soil and there’s snow raising their joint to their third eye and they’re super cool looking up at the sky gazing with you know what their eyes closed looking to sign of my I wanted a little bit of all of that I wanted a bit if I discipline my bit of order you know a bit of debauchery and Chaos a bit of Eco spirituality and the social permaculture aspects that the things that got me most thrilled on top of all the ecological stuff which I love and I’m super into the missive of hacking all of these different Gifts of no way they would call ecological Services you know any ecology textbook and improvement course you weren’t just learn to think like MacGyver you know I mean if you like the ATM you like MacGyver and you like to solve problems and build things that were the super elegant but super crafty DIY Contraptions and get all of these amazing functions out of out of this elegant designs like that that really like the practical application turn me on so much but the thing that turn me on the most was definitely this is sense that there is a pathway for word that is is going to steal me from all my cynicism about human about someone called human nature but it’s just like the what felt like an impossible task of like bootstrapping a revolutionary movement everything in chapter 14 and everything about how we can build these these harmonious guilds and treat human human cultural design like a garden and really bring out people’s know what the bare minimum sort of professional development is needed to have like I’ve never seen that really mapped out before like Yeah so basically you you would motivate these different peoples that you have like a bare minimum kind of survival pod you know that you could take this to any environment and the way that it just was this growing mandala that was the most impressive thing to me that that would that all been thawed out and so being able to design the resilient communities in and having Financial awareness and legal awareness 10 but also having him so much of the financial and legal awareness to know about things like protecting your risk Ventures by relinquishing them into a non-profit not just as a tax shelter but to protect yourself from the bad guys and the court like you want to fight corporate rule you have to basically, she put them in the capitalist Marketplace but then protect your intellectual property your land your equipment your seeds that may be competing with Monsanto or whatever and you have to basically use Jedi Mind Tricks against the status quo to protect yourself and just that sophistication of subversive like I’ve never seen anything on that level of sophistication when it comes to being a subversive it’s like this isn’t breaking Windows this isn’t lighting should on fire this isn’t fucking even protesting this is like you says in in grave danger of falling food you know he wasn’t going to say in the forest but almost wasn’t going to just stay in the forest disgusted with Humanity after the 60s he was going to fight back with positivism and not let the bastards roll over everything and he fucking sat there and he absorbed the intelligence of the Fleming also the food for a semi so I always say two things does the aha moment of the food forest and the the Tactical strategic financial and political subversion of chapter 14 if that if that sums it up awesome permaculture MacGyver moment if you will fill I spent some quite a bit of time in the tropics permaculture stuff and some of the forefathers dad got their original training from Bill Mollison in the very very early days who were it’s the Wizards the Elders of Agriculture had an awesome story and and the guy removed and strategies and tactics that are kind of ninja like in and you know it illegal permaculture syncing really affect you and you want to bring it over so you want all of your options you can possibly have with with Steve and Diane wood or fruit growing in and developing diapers food for everything really try till Sunday characters awesome stories about and surrounding trees that they wanted to bring into their country but of course you know there’s and they’re happy to be so many interesting people develop new varieties in Hawaii there were several stories about how the perfect sign wood trimming and fit inside of a snorkel and nobody would ever suspect agricultural Contraband coming through inside of a snorkel case in your graphing techniques it’s very possible to bring in a snorkels worth of the fruit tree that you want to develop and 20 years later you’ve got a genetic stop there that you can share with your community or develop into your own Orchard or maybe it’s going to feel who know if you’ve got amazing MacGyver mentalities doing cool thing with Biology to make their dreams happen and that’s inspiring DIY right for sure for sure and I guess so maybe now we can talk a bit about the the more computer hackers having his stuff like for me you know I was I’m code a little late for the most part I’m good I can cut and paste code you know I can read a little bit but not much and I pretty much rely on the the cyberguy gods above me but I’ve always found ways to I’ve always known crew to ask questions to and who to befriend you know in a symbiotic and not parasitic way hopefully for the most part but I can just go through the chapters of my life knowing like if you’re a revolutionary and you don’t have a geek in your squad like you’re just forget about it you know not not in the modern world like you need to have somebody to help you with that so I’ve always had you know kind of a assassination and and and a love of those who really understood the inner workings of cyberspace more than I did and whatnot in Uno which is kind of like dabble here and there but I’ve used you know I’ve built websites I’ve run and ministered e-commerce and you know I’ve had to just learn whatever I had to learn to do the thing that I wanted to do but I wasn’t like a generalist them in computer science or math anything like that and I certainly a late bloomer to crypto but one of the things that was floating around the internet and are in our era was this thing called the permaculture party pack which was this cycle somebody did the work of compiling this ridiculously absurd compilation of obscure and NM just totally mind-blowing permaculture and otherwise agricultural sustainable teaching tools and and that was just floating around the radical underground for quite a while and probably yeah but I still out there I don’t you know I think that the times have changed a little bit but what I like to talk about is that what you and I are agreed upon at a certain point was that after I had done essentially a number of projects in the number of scales at a number of sites and was starting to I guess get past my get a few you know a few belts an endermite in a few karate belts from the dojo so to speak now and then to go for that black belt of being a certified designer if you want to call it that obvious lyrics degrees beyond that but I wanted to feel like I wanted to have more confidence as a as it as you know at least there a junior-level instructor and I wanted to have more confidence to do workshops in Tofino start to Branch out and and and taking more of a leadership role within you know my community and the larger community and actually build a career doing what I now love to be doing which is all this fun stuff and so we decided that the and I pitched and I’m like well if the if the canonical tagari release of the 72-hour course with Bill Mollison in Geoff Lawton. I believe it Melbourne University I believe somewhere in Australia there was that digitized that what that time it was like I mean it would take however long for people to download that file bit to download that party pack but in that party pack there was that collection of those DVDs which I went ahead later and purchased the legit package of it so that I could feel confident that I had that there was at least one licensed copy in my in my possession so that I wouldn’t be standing upon you know a a a sort of pirated body of knowledge but basically Meep same to you okay look you know I don’t have the money to go off to a permaculture farm and give them two or three grand and take the time off of work to go do that you know I don’t I could I could do the more accessible version of like the local out two weekends a month or one weekend a month thing but also I just don’t have the the capital for it’s still just like a starving artist bunker you know just like not not having that manifest met abundance so so really the hacker mentality and both of us kind of I would say led to this understanding the berries that they’re there is a demand for people who want to take the course and be certified and do this right but there needs to be a more or pants or Sam or at your own pace and more accessible to low-income folks way of approaching is so I took the time myself to watch all of the take notes on and watch all of the course DVD set basically a digitized version of that which was the 72-hour course and then lead the permaculture a designer’s manual cover to cover and have done my design practicum which was all of the projects you had you know supervise me doing over the course of our that long that was a year or more and then we decided that the talent show that out there the requisite of a talent show was Satisfied by you coming to go see my pump down once that was that and then from that point you gave me that seal of approval printing me a certificate and and I I did the research to know and I have citations and quotes of Geoff Lawton saying things to be effective basically in the the spirit of it in the beginnings and you know that I sent you there was like it was basically a Each one teach one kind of approach like if you took the course it would behoove you to master the curriculum enough to be able to go out and teach your own course in the end you know there’s there is some guidance around getting a diploma and nervous but there was lacking infrastructure and then obviously a Changing of the Guard with Moses and passing and and Lawton taking over and now the PRI thing there was a battle the feud between the permaculture Institute in New Mexico and the Permaculture Research Institute and luckily nothing too ugly in terms of like Court battles over you know the trademark or anything but it’s been pretty much the wild west and was kind of like a the industry will sort itself out if your reputable teacher and people like what you do and you know people see that you’re your designs actually work then you will have a sort of natural laissez-faire kind of libertarian approach to who gets to own this title and you know we we took on me I took that and ran with it and I said okay I’m going to do this sort of open-source versioning of a of a PDC and we know we got that Goin and then what that ultimately led to was at the height and peak of my having taken that PVC and run with it is that I made arrangements with the at the time this was Circa 2013 and I was in a location where I had Urban semi-rural small-scale over 10 acres of of a canvas to play with him and I had developed a canvas over the course of about a year and installed the the worm compost in multiple ponds and multiple kitchen Gardens and a food Forest you know a fledgling Food Forest and there was the zone that is so Nation theory of putting multiple concentric circles of different areas of interaction based on how often you going to need to use them. Just in a nutshell I’m going to say that to throw it out there for people that permaculture Zone Theory and basically I I was doing things by the book and I wanted to create a permaculture Training Center where world class instructors could come there and based on the infrastructure that I had installed they would be able to teach their flavor of permaculture and that was tested when we brought the war and brush who is still one of my ultimate favorite permaculture a designer’s because of his spiritual spirituality and his work with indigenous people around the world and and his storytelling and he’s definitely and he did he did the design for Amma the hugging in a so the Tantra he is to me the fucking time should permaculturist par exsalonce cuz he took the design for almost Center and I was there at Quail Springs when he was working on it and you showed me that a time so that I’m not fucking dropping names right now I had him out there chords for weekend and for me that was like the the real ribbon-cutting on the value of the work you had done to train me and to facilitate me and guide me like if he can come out there and he can you know look at this this design on this property and he can teach from it then I know I’m you know I’m on the right path and that that gave me the confidence from that point to reach out to managing director of The Pri USA and invite him over to that site and Pitch to him that he authorized me to have the authority to replicate the PDC format basically that you and I did which is that you know you should have asked you should be able to be you know given access to the the tagari canonical bilmos Geoff Lawton DVD set if we purchase a license for it and we have it available for folks that that should be you know something to do Explorer and and to potentially approval obviously there’s probably more intricate licensing that that could and should be done but at least the concept was there for me to share with him and the idea that a senior permaculture designer could come in and basically a couple times a year take a batch of students who had gone through that DVD course and who had done work on that property you took basically as they’re going to the course they’re actually okay so now you do a course module now you go out to the property where there are Works in progress of the different modules of the different functional parts of the design whether it’s like repairing the chicken factory or extending the moving some material around a building at a thermophilic compost whatever it is is all of those things are are are just in the flow influx happening on the property so you should be able to do the the in the classroom study material and then go out on the land and do the Practical aspect of it build the skills and develop the skill sets and then also have access to the designer’s manual which now if I do it if I do it now I’m going to say we’d have the students read the introduction to permaculture ebook rather than the designer’s manual because I think that’s sufficient to get people going no without having to go through all of that technical minutiae which is a fucking rocket science in the In The Bleak the big black book but that was where it left off and then you know for me all hell broke loose I had a spiritual emergency and I had to let it all just biodegrade everything I had built basically we just brought it in place and things fell apart for me financially and I’m personally but but that that outline for a at your own pace in low-income open source PBC it still exists and now as of this very moment I’m being called to to bring it back to life so that’s why I really wanted to have you on and for us to talk shop about this about the punk rock ethics and the hacker ethics and the the sort of I mean I think I think if I had the opportunity to meet with Bill on the astral plane and he knows that I went on the fucking Joan Rivers show and fucking brat and I brought the permaculture to the Joan Rivers show and she was happy she wanted to be trans apocalyptic she wanted to fucking bring the chickens into the into her backyard and turn her fucking swimming pool into a fish pond that was something that bill Mollison would fucking give me a pat on the back for it I would say so anyway that’s just that’s me sort of giving my my my dissertation defense if you will there anybody out there who is like wanting to show me or love me for this I had to just going to bring it out like that so and now you can tell me you know what you think about my my fucking my evil plans to conquer the world with benevolent egalitarian and access the permaculture it is an idea that has been wanting to happen for as long as as as long as has been teaching class like he said it it does go back to the very beginning every student should become a teacher of the permaculture are in there all right and it should have been affected in their mind enough that they would want to teach people that is freaking awesome don’t you realize you could be building soil there that you realize it could be slowing down water there don’t you realize you could be generated vegetation and any other ideas I meant to be shared and it spread at some people absolutely need to pay for it and pay full price and other people need that access that inspiration for free just like it has he said your your Sweat Equity I wouldn’t call it free your Sweat Equity and and willingness to indulge your self in the information and workout it that was the equity required to get you access to the knowledge to enjoy playing with permaculture and make it fruitful for yourself and your community and it seems like another inflection point where it’s about to become even more purple which is awesome yeah man I’m going to I’m going to try as it is another funny bit here if you’re good to go for another few minutes how are you doing on time and cool alright so I think that this would be a fun sort of you know pecan on the experience to get into not to get too deep into the well this this is more fun than the people who are who are more used to hearing me talk about sexy time stuff on this podcast this is where it is and it is that you know when I was when I mentioned being on the urban Homestead ish Farm property in LA area this was around 2012-2013 my past with sex work with with extreme activism with punk rock like all that stuff was was compartmentalised and shelved away because at that time I was developing with a very astute love partner business partner who who shall remain unnamed for now but if you if you watch the Joan Rivers show you can see us together at at are at the peak of our glorious as a power couple that was manifesting and you know kicking ass and taking names but she cleaned up my act a lot when I met her I was talking about the zombie apocalypse and I was putting out punk rock jeans called survive 2012 and a head fucking like I took Boy Scouts clipart and I put Mohawks and fucking like studs on it very much in that the deep in the crust Punk aesthetic and the profane existence call him was going and it was like we’re getting ready for the zombie apocalypse and permaculture the only fucking way the punks are going to survive you know I wasn’t thinking about marketing to West LA high-end clientele and getting on the Joan Rivers show that was all that the Witchcraft of this dear woman who was a very wealthy woman you had a very amazing career and basically she was suno pruning those aspects of Authority or aspects of my my true character and and I I respected it I was like cool with you know being kind of funeral just having to up my professional game and in change my parents a little bit and then be able to work with her and work together and build a brand and we we built this brand that it’s also going to be sort of it he has had it’s it’s it’s our cue nobody needs it’s going to come back but really it was an opportunity for me to engage with Society at large on a totally different level toy different ear and so we were creating opportunities for very family-friendly brand and marketing and in and what not and so you know we put together a portfolio of our projects and what we have been doing on the property together and what our brand was trying to do and I had like a I even had a suit Panico superhero mascot that I was doing and very much working at the the G-rated and mainstream kind of level of approaching people and business development of What Not and so it one of the the things that we did since she who is so well-connected is if there is a very one of the most famous actors of all time was a friend of hers was one of his his top assistant was a close friend of hers and the friend of of the property and what not and and we thought she was like we need to pitch all the stuff we’re doing to have a reality TV show we want to do a reality TV show of how we’re doing permaculture and survival and you know it can be something that’s like very very mainstream friendly and what not and so I put together a bunch of stuff for a little packet oral presentation and we showed the guy we’re doing this and we’re doing that and we’re doing this and that and this and that and he looks at anyssa psych not he’s scratching his head and it’s like kind of frustrated and kind of distraught and he basically just says I’m sorry guys I hate being a basic hate to be cynical but people aren’t going to be interested in this like it’s too it’s too G-rated you need basically you need to make you said you need to make permaculture sexy and he meant that as more of like if you want to compete with people’s eyeballs for attention like it’s going to have to be edgier than than than what you’re doing and how you’re not going to maybe you know your mascot could become the next SpongeBob or something but most likely you know you need to just like except how cynical about this reality is and and think about you know you would have to be asking you would have to be if you want to reality TV show it has to all be about sexual politics and drama amongst adults or teens and that’s the only way anything’s going to sell it so just you know either do that or do you not think I’m sad and disappointing and it was kind of a cliffhanger but as I as you know from that point if you were to cut the movie script right there is cut the scene there of him planting that seed and then I go through my Dark Night of the soul and everything kind of dissolves in Melts the way and I go through this hero’s journey into the Shadow and come out as a sex worker and has like a sexual wounded sexual healer and I become a tantric Shaman and all this fancy-schmancy you know stuff and start getting back into doing porn and and it’s like but I never stopped being a fucking as a permaculture designer and I never stopped seeing opportunity to transmute and transform waste into resources and valuing the fucking marginal so I’m like I look at making permaculture sexy and I said thinking about you know I’m doing all these Landscaping gigs in Beverly Hills and west side and stuff it’s like I wonder who has the Landscaping contract for the Playboy Mansion because give me the damn shame that I can just imagine all these bunnies with no no carrots to eat out of their own permaculture Garden like somebody needs to sell that now that is what if I pitch that to that guy now hey we’re going to make permaculture sexy let us do a permaculture Makeover at the Playboy mansion and we can take pictures of the bunnies eating carrots and they grew themselves you know that that’s where I started to bring the the perfect culture you know aspect back together and Bill Mollison is definitely a lecherous bastard and in and there’s plenty of evidence of that so he would not take offense to what I’m saying now but put the that’s kind of that was a joke of this coming full circle but another aspect is just that if I take making permaculture sexy as if prime directive and I look at okay you know I can only be my sexual Capital also we talked about the different forms of capital that’s not on the list and sexuality as a as a vector as a as a sector these are permaculture jargon for understanding flows of energy sexuality Flows In and Out of a site and such a deep fundamental way but it gets neglected overlooking design and not a lot of people are designing for let’s say different relationship structures or or designing for maybe the tagari farm I believe it’s in porch Spain or Portugal like they’re actually doing permaculture with with the sexuality a sexually intelligent design aspect and so it’s just really an itch that far behind the curve as far as everything else in permaculture so it didn’t make sense for me to take up that cause and to start talking about sexuality permaculture designing sites and systems that account for these flows of energy and so where where I’m knowing that there are limitations to my sexual Capital potential the knowing that when I discovered and getting back into the adult industry at cycle wait a minute these models and these porn actresses they actually charge very little money to do all kinds of different shoots like they are used to standing in front of holding cigarettes and booze and standing in front of sports cars and literally you know if you’re a model who were who is like a top-ranking model on modelmayhem.com or you’re the which is the most famous fanciest pornstar in the world your your day rate and your half-day rate in your hour rate it’s actually not that much for anybody who who wanted to like me make permaculture sexy to start to hire these people and start to actually put them in the landscape put them into permaculture designs and have them start to teach and have them start to demonstrate and let them become the teachers of permaculture that would fulfill that directive to make permaculture sexy so fast forward from that planting the seed of that directive to me doing my best to integrate permaculture with my work and my offerings but knowing the limitation I have maybe even a greater leap of faith and and risk and and risque if you will to be like okay well you don’t want to listen to Jeff lot and talk about permaculture you don’t want to listen to Paul Wheaton talk about permaculture you don’t listen to Jack spearco talk about permaculture how about the Playboy that are the play girl of the month you know I mean talk about permaculture then we’re cooking with grease and not is my you know hack that’s my function and and it’s starting to move and now I will be certifying some of these models and pornstars excetera excetera giving them the course that I had through you and modifying adapting it to their lifestyle and their schedule and beer you know availability and their interests and pretty soon I would dare say it’s going to cost very little money to have huge cultural leverage with their millions of followers and their millions of likes and just all of that capital of that Social Capital social media Capital merging that with the sexual capital and putting it into a holistic permaculture design where there’s a potential for the mean the games and the contest and like when I see what these models and and pornstars do on their social media to like riled up in and get their fans to participate in some contest to see them wearing some new outfit or whatever the fuck it is like you know when you put it very well in this conversation about the way that you’re mine shifts where you see opportunity for ecological from for helping life be conducive to more life you see those opportunities everywhere and it’s like there’s a limit to what people like you and me who aren’t multi-million follower Instagram models or whatever there’s a limit to how much we can transmit that but if they start to incentivize their fan base and they say yeah you want to have a date with me well you got to plant a tree to do that and if you plant a tree and you can prove it with the a video of you doing it then maybe you get you entered the raffle to have a nice date was Peter sup expect they do the most ridiculous shit and people are like men they’re abused frustrated sexual needs are being just totally manipulated by the door the whole capitalist wasteful system and if only it could be more elegantly finessed so that there was an alignment of ecological values and sexual gratification sexual fulfillment and the titillation of tits and ass you know we could really be where Jeff on says we used to be which is the most beneficial element in the system that humans can be that and I think it just takes putting that fucking carry it in front of you know the right energy and getting getting that frustrated Sexual Energy to actually serve serve Gaia and who better than Ben Ben some of these models which I determine undiscovered are actually quite quite an expensive to hire and I’m asking to do things far less intrusive and far less the grading than what they’re getting acid Dubai every other person who’s Contracting with them so that’s that’s my bite bite the next chunk of a thesis that I have found out there on the design charrette table setup for YouTube channel there you have it man that’s that’s the monster that you created in and I think Bill would be fucking having a shity than Grande right now if you could know about it he would absolutely absolutely love it I am sure that well good job then I love where you were at life and Imagination that has taken you and I look forward to what you able to produce and where they do in the future I thank you for that I think just the ad just as simply put if you think we both know anybody who you got to meet him personally but anybody who is Coosa been able to stand and stomach more than five minutes of his form of humor you know you would get it yeah he would think that this was a great hack and I do it to you know in that Spirit of honoring the lineages of teachers and the you know it’s not going to be everybody’s cup of tea but you know I wanted to have that that that thought process kind of vetted you know and have you sound soundboard on that and that’s pretty much my yeah that’s it’s a huge gift from you to me to to allow me to elaborate to that degree and to bear with me on that and now two were not me we’re not going to we’re not promoting anything particularly of yours we’re not funneling people to your websites or to your your Works per se but while you have a supper 290 which anytime you’re welcome back of course and we’ll probably check in on things in the future but this kind of is like we’re like time-stamping the blockchain Innocence by having this conversation we’re we’re establishing the the the spirit of resistance in this bizarre and unique format of of you and me talking about this stuff right now and so like with this opportunity that you have to speak from your heart and soul and everything you’ve learned in all the places you’ve arrived at I would love for you to just take over on however much time you’re comfortable with and like advise me on what you’ve learned and where you’re at and you know we talked about maybe busting some myths or at least talking putting some critique on on a permaculture movement if if you like but I just want to say my I rest my case for sexual pervert culture and fucking punk stacking permaculture and now you have what is snow humble audience to speak to but it will be growing over time and when we when we publish this episode there will be you know hopefully copies of it preserves you know for time immemorial and it will be something that people can look back on so it’s it it may age with Grace and it may it may continue to bear fruit so so feel free with that said to you know bestow whatever wisdom you’d like and doesn’t have to have any new no correlation to what I said that was just me putting in my my little timestamp yeah I I’m not sure that I would have so much more to say about the my recent learning so I would maybe just invite people to take those moments to appreciate life and dive into some methadone and and enjoy it and and dig on some of the philosophy and maybe even get into the weeds and read up on some FH King farmers of forty centuries and just think about where we’re at now and where we cooking in 10,000 years as Humanity probably not doing as bad as you think we’re doing I would say we’re probably doing a hell of a lot better than your mind thinks we’re doing and those are the kind of thoughts that I guess I’m working with at the moment so yeah if you if you don’t mind I’ll try to teach him we’re out of there we talked about futurism before and talked about you know that the long now and Kurzweil and that reconciling of amor primitivist perspective with the Amor techno Optimist perspective so you know now that you kind of yeah, you kind of shared a couple of resources do you want to just like if you were to put together your own party pack let’s say of the things that Arthur’s resource is not to say that we’re going to do that or you know take that on but but I would be curious to know if you would want to elaborate on just lists of influences that you had you know people and anything that you would consider to be a valuable resource like that go ahead and add some more to that list and then I think we’ll call the show if we’re if we’re happy with that where I would throw some ideas is Imagine The Long now I would say Stewart brand book and any kokrak minted whole earth discipline is a great place to start and that’s that’s got a lot of ecological heresy that he presents if he will end the end that can change your mind on a few thing and if you’re looking to change your minds on you know being super down about the world’s going to hell in a handbasket and and you’ve been deeply involved in send Derek Jensen work or something like that I would definitely say grab a list of books by Steven Pinker the better angels of our nature Matt Ridley the rational Optimist Peter diamandis abundance and I I guess like you said Ray Kurzweil The Singularity is near and think about radical demonetizing EFM realizing technology can help perpetuate ecological regeneration and human flourishing because not opposed you know that the system to develop technology is certainly not purposefully and willingly opposed to regenerating the system in fact I think trying to Mary conservation with technological Advance is providing a very bright halfway towards the future and with that in mind never disregard the sacred and always take a moment to reflect back ten thousand or more years rely on wisdom to guide you I guess that’s about that’s about all I have on those ramble that’s beautiful man I just reminds me of the one thing one thing I’ll close with your which is believed this was in that Mollison Lawton PC where he says basically what you do in your permaculture design should have worked where you are a thousand years ago and it should work where you are a thousand years from now and that is like the that’s another thing to meditate on you know yes absolutely and it goes with that it’s like can you be high-tech as you want and be compliant with nature the same time you know yeah right on Manuel crazy insane bulletin things that you like super counterintuitive in and could totally like this this is an awesome one so I would assume eco-warriors would think that petroleum products are all super negative there are some really interesting very underground moles and project in the Middle East where he actually use petroleum product to erosion and reverse the desertification and I think that if it’s worth not not condemning every tool just because of where it came from their options to use just about every tool for potential regenerative benefit. Will pay huge dividends in the 1000 to 10000 your time scale is very tantric in a sense that Township pushes you to towards the taboo and the transgressions that help you realize non-duality and integration and break your phobias and and understand you know every tool in the toolbox with with the ethics of right action ultimately it with the bigger picture in mind so that’s another another guy want anything else before we wrap I think that’s good cool man all right well that. Comes full circle we I think we crushed it we’re talking about Punk punks hacking critical and we did a massive thank you so much this is been a huge honor and you know the respect that any martial artist would have for their Sensei or any Yogi would have for the guru I have that for you and I absolutely wish you the best and I live to make you proud and hopefully you know if tall is the the business logic pants out well then there will be yields yields upon year olds to to share and to feed back into more fun and more teaching and just confusing being conducive to more life men awesome awesome all right that we have a great evening and we’ll be in touch please go to www.crunch.com can cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition to sustaining and improving the podcast your donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple up here by Tycho logical employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 18275 1593 or emo band at Tantra Punk. 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