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Mike Stabile with FSC Logo

If You Like Porn You’ll Love the Free Speech Coalition with Mike Stabile TPP287

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In this episode I’m joined by Mike Stabile of the Free Speech Coalition for an exploration of his personal journey into the adult industry, the history and mission of the FSC, and his role in helping to validate and destigmatize the adult entertainment industry

About Mike:

Director of Communications

Pronouns: He / Him / His
Mike Stabile is a journalist and documentary filmmaker who has written about and advocated for sex workers and sexual speech for over a decade. His work has been published in a wide range of publications, including the Daily Beast, Salon, Buzzfeed, Playboy and the New York Times. Seed Money, his documentary on pornographer philanthropist Chuck Holmes was named one of the Best Documentaries of 2015 by The Advocate.

Stabile founded Polari Media to help non-traditional communities and businesses better communicate with a mainstream audience. He has handled communications for the Free Speech Coalition since 2013.

https://www.freespeechcoalition.com/

https://twitter.com/mikestabile

My Non Verbatim Show Notes

MS:

thanks for being a member, supporter,

really important organization, adult industry as we know it would not be in existence if not for fsc and other free speech advocates

personal journey, started 2 decades ago

journalist, editor in SF, freelance in NY, moved back to SF, early 2000s,

internet taking off in regard to adult

freelance work for adult companies, coming online

fascinated by industry/culture

gay man, positive relationship with porn, sexuality in general,

gay community, different relationship with adult content, less shame, seen as part of healthy sexuality, compontent, rather than something you have to fight, it’s a tool in the tool box

took to the industry, met people really smart, doing interesting things

lot of room for creativity

worked at alt weeklies,

seemed like this was a new frontier

both money and will to try to do new things

community based in SF at that time, much of gay porn world based in SF, not the case necessarily today

a lot going on, working with naked sword

going on sets teaching self how to film behind the scenes content

invited by studios, go in, film things they could put on dvds, or websites, bonus content

met a lot of interesting directors, performers

started thinking about what I could do with those sort of skills

eventually decided I wanted to make a documentary

not necessarily about adult industry, some of the stories as it had been

worked on documentary about god father of gay porn industry, chuck homes

80s, different from today, arrested put in jail, really basic vanilla content,

depending on locality, how bad they wanted you, shut down your business, federal prison 3 or more years

early …people didn’t want to be photographed, didn’t want to be seen, everything was underground, sell out back of cars, cloak and dagger

government such a hostile force

reagan admin, meese commission, didn’t like it, series of crackdowns

become the beginning of the free speech coalition

needed time to work on documentary, needed time, money

wrote for new york times, buzzfeed, salon, wasn’t enough to survive

started freelancing, got called into kink.com

they were having some issues, needed somebody to help them with media, at the time getting a lot of attention not all of it positive

they needed somebody who could help

I know industry, the world, other side of media

disconnected, people aren’t understanding what you’re doing

took them on

from there, recommended to FSC

head of kink recommended I started working with them

work with a number of other companies as well

indy films, sex tec, sex educators,

pro bono work with sex workers

help better communicate their story to a mainstream world, to a civilian world

really fascinating, myths people have about the industry

longer I’m in it, almost 2 decades now,

how inventive resourceful, smart people in industry are

came from a bit of a carny family NJ

affinity for liminal entertainment industry

really funny ,feels like home, thought would be detour, might be where I was meant to be

with FSC about 7 years, worked with them on prop 60 campaign, fight against mandatory condoms,

organization, got start in late 80s early 90s, about 30 years old, it arose when after a series of vice raids in los angeles, coming out of the 80s where you had meese commission shutting people down, fbi shutting people down based on recommendations

originally legal defense fund

if somebody was busted, lapd raided your offices, fbi agent in conservative area like alabama ordered your vhs tape, it wasn’t just a criminal conviction you had to face, it was gonna drain your business and drain your money

anti porn forces really knew

order something like, vhs in alabama, in utah, in another conservative location, boom, they would go after you for selling obscene materials across state lines

wouldn’t even be able to get conviction, but having to fight 3 different criminal cases in federal court or even a raid at your studio, incredibly draining, easy way to put people out of business

federal govt trying to put people out of business

take a big distributor/producer, really make an example out of them

people really scared

originally FSC defense fund

fight and not go out of business

evolved into advocacy organization in mid 90s

CA state govt decided to tax adult content, something like 25%

unconstitutional, singling out specific type of speech

probably going to pass

fsc shifted gears, going to sacramento, lobbying, figuring out how to work within this system, was able to defeat it

TP: astronomical tax, argument to use for enforcement

MS: predates me, money going to go something like domestic abuse victims, sexual assault victims, or sex trafficking, still seeing this today, legislation proposed, most recent, put a filter on all computers sold in south carolina, block adult content, if you want it removed you have to pay state $20 for them to remove it, really bad legislation, most doesn’t go very far, passionate ideology, hates porn, say gonna take money fight, sex trafficking, sexual assault, something they thing porn causes

way to get money, another way for them to link it to something they believe is one of the ills caused by porn

number of battles, ongoing battles to this day

famous battles, supreme court, law passed, you can’t have any representation of somebody under age on your site, should have anything that looks like CP, should have any cartoons

legislation, incredibly broad, somebody in pig tales, site called barely legal, are they going to use this law to go after me, are they going to then start going through films and say you know what, this person may be of age, it was criminalizing, something ….gives appearance they may not be 18, subjective thing to say

unconstitutional, isn’t a crime,

big battles fought, early 2000s, fight over documents

broadest view, its become harder and harder to get obscenity convictions

so much content online,

because obscenity test, supreme court uses, 3 part test,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test

80s and 90s, vhs tape small town in utah, trial in utah say to jury, does this violate your community standards

internet, community standards incredibly broad

how do you say this violates community standards, people passing around most obscene things on tumblr, twitter

fsc after advent of internet, byzantine regulatory battles

backdoor ways they could try to do censorship

record keeping provision, still in effect, we were able to limit it in various ways

in order for you to post something on website, whether you created it or not, sexually explicit or nude, copy of personal id, model release, separate room in home or office, cross filed all these different ways

2257 regulations, update

goal was to make sure that a person like you couldn’t post a nude photo from your site from somewhere else, they would have to have records for all these things

affiliate site, merely showed a photo

it wasn’t about whether or not these people were of age or not, that was held by primary producer, it was really about not allowing these to travel

backdoor ways of limiting the adult industry’s ability to work freely

really want to make it harder and harder and can’t do it through courts, byzantine ways make life more difficult, too costly

if you violate one thing, or mess up one thing you can go to federal prison

fsc,

in california, regulations that will say you need to adhere to same standards as any other work places, can’t have close physical contact, mask and googles in contact with bodily fluids, don’t apply to mixed martial arts/sports, blood and sweat flying

apply to adult industries, ah ha you have to do these things or we’re gonna fine you, possibly put you in jail

fsc, been really active, industry representative, in those meetings, going to capital, meeting with legislators

helping them understand, think our industry is much different

most people outside, think, its a bunch of drugged up people and sex slaves, idea it’s a bad industry

even if this law is a little bit unconstitutional, targeting them specifically, we’re doing it for their own good

save these women, stop the people becoming addicted to porn, whatever they’re going to use

fsc, what I try to do at my position, destigmatize, help people understand what we are and aren’t

have our own best practices

on set, it’s not a free for all

tested every 14 days

checklist gonna do this or not gonna do this

regulations, best practices

change the way people see us

at least in california

TP: wasn’t first condom law, the AHF, 2016, I remember marching in the streets of hollywood

MS: I was at that march as well, inspiring, all these sex workers marching in street fighting against idea that they need someone to save them

workers come out, you know nothing about my work, we didn’t ask for your help, if you want to know I can tell you but it’s not this

TP: just did interview with Corey Silverstein, struggles on horizon, current now,

thoughts on officially defunct, attempt to create a state-wide food handlers permit of adult, IEAU, fsc position on whether or not that was furthering hope, more sophisticated dialog

MS: still face things all the time, most recently, not just people coming from outside industry with ideas, sometimes people within industry, had experience, want to fix that, in general we welcome that

dialog about how we can make sets safer, empower performers,

don’t think anyone who works in the industry says its perfect

fsc, try to make it better, inform legislation that comes through, make it so it doesn’t do more harm

head of IEAU, small group of performers

one of women involved with that, put fort h proposal, people need training when they come into industry

wonderful in some ways ambition, want people to have as much information as possible, be empowered

unfortunately you get to a legislator, they don’t know much about the industry

formalize as a bill, put it through assembly, issue was it amounted to having to have a license

government shouldn’t be able to restrict

speech is different…we have a constitutional amendment

different that opening a hamburger stand/factory

government can’t restrain us from speaking unnecessarily

I think motivation in the right place, often people don’t think through consequences, as a result, license to speak

once you did these things you’d be able to operate as an adult performer, be essentially licensed

fsc, no this is a limit on a specific type of speech, we don’t ask this of reporters, politicians…religion

we had to call that legislator, go in and having meetings, talk about why this is a problem, arguments fall apart

didn’t even mean that, we understand, that’s why we’re hear

something ….can have wide ranging implications, we are a community already heavily stigmatized and criminalized

already ways in which members of adult community are discriminated against, stigmatized socially, want to make sure there aren’t any laws going on the books that can be used against us broadly

if you want to go after something that’s illegal, or actually a crime that’s fine, but don’t put something on the books that can be used broadly, it will be haunt us

adult industry canary in coal mine when it comes to free speech

us confernce of bishops recently called for pornography to be banned, evil, harmful, all these things not supported by science, but by morality

has to be somebody there that says no this is wrong and this is why

here’s where you’re argument fails

if you shut down pornography, what comes next, what qualifies as pornography

those are the discussions that fsc…built to have

TP: in my estimation, upgrade my thinking if necessary, might be naive, been in adult films for quite a while, attempted to get really legit about it in last 5 years, in that journey, opportunity to have internal industry self policing debates, progress, improving conditions on set, solidarity among different actors in the ecosystem, xbiz show, gripe, abused, mistreated, go to get some rally troops, stir up some discussion, better place than that

MS: xbiz, avn shows, couple of others, tradde shows, here in vegas, or europe, a lot of it, the value of those often is, connected with people in industry, also communicate best practices on sets

kink.com done a lot of work, how to better structure sets, performers feel empowered to speak up, structural problems

trade shows often good place for people to have discussions, best practices, performers, issues that affect them

social media, twitter, really revolution, adult performers, sex workers more broadly, seen a number of times in past, somebody has bad experience on set, consent violated, or scene was harder than expected, director didn’t listen, I am upset, community of performers on twitter who will share and retween, gains steam, performers on twitter have access to journalists in a way that they never did before

I think that, twitter works really well for journalists, works really well for adult performers, political groups as well have really thrived

other performers retweet, tag fsc, journalists will pick it up

issues, need multi level response

consent violation on set, wanted to stop, when you talk to law enforcement…doesn’t do anything, you’re a porn star this is want you signed up for, too messy, walk away

find out whats’ going on, what their resources are, don’t often have law enforcement willing to be involved, may be put in touch with crisis center, understand, legal rights, different resources legally, put in touch with performer groups, maybe reaching out to producer and say hey what the hell happened here

we’re a trade organization, advocacy organization, resource for performers and producers, whether somebody had a bad time on set, or somebody who’s bank shut them out

TP: real time court of public opinion

covid era, paradigm, may not have in person conferences to look forward to, relying on these platforms even more key

I know there was a moment not too long ago, scare of twitter wiping out adult related profiles

MS: with big tech, it’s hard to tell what’s going on, are people being shadow banned, profiles don’t come up when you search for them or is something going to happen

a lot of times a tech platform, new terms of service, TOS, sometimes, might say you can’t do anything obscene, sexually explicit, or violent, they can update the TOS put in new restrictions, might not operate on it immediately, might be something where they want the ability to go after you later, might be big crack down, might shut down your account, make you agree before hand

we don’t really know

used to be battle for free speech was fought in the courts, whether or not legal to show this movie at movie theater or sell this magazine

but the public square is internet, controlled by a few major corporation for the most part, facebook , twitter, instagram I guess is facebook, small number of places, reddit

not government by first amendment, governed by tos, no recourse, if twitter takes you off you can’t sue them and say we’re gonna go to the supreme court the way you could if a local judge shut down your movie, you had a recourse for appeal, there’s no appeal with social media, private company they can take you off if they want, appears to be an open public square, but you don’t have that same control

sort of where, we didn’t necessarily see anything happened, don’t have access to their back end,

account got shut down, shadow banned, something like that, we have no idea what’s going on, it’s a big black box,

really guess work, nothing catastrophic happened, this fall,

TP: selective enforcement,

spirit of fsc going back so many decades now, having been iterating through so many different chapters of new tech, are there people on your staff that are really keyed into web 3, blockchain, uncensorable rails of content and transactions, a lot of adult industry early adopters of bitcoin, but also ethereum smart contracts, platforms hoping to be uncensorable, can’t deplatform users, because it’s all peer-to-peer

original ethos of the internet to begin with, bastardarization of peer to peer open source becoming centralized big data

one of your staff, crypto geek?

MS: small staff, just a handful of us, what we depend on are are members, various committees, board of directors, rotates every two years, people come in, nobody specifically on staff that handles crypto, new platforms, what we have is

adult industry is really well positioned, people in industry, tremendously innovated

we’re working on regulatory/legislative

people in industry building platforms, blockchain, crypto

adult industry, really fertile soil, natural consumers, gonna be there no matter what you try, always gonna be somebody who’s turned on by what your fetish is , how you’re structuring your company

something we don’t do specifically, keep aware in larger industry, what’s happening, understand it in terms of a resource

one thing we’re seeing right now, with alternate platforms, rise of premium social, only fans, just for fans, many vids

alternatives for people who are looking to build a following, but aren’t allowed on instagram, or worried twitters gonna get taken away

legislation not gonna help

alternatives

not gonna be as big as twitter, but might be a place, should twitter shut down, natural migration

seeing coming in future, seen it with some of social media already, build a better mouse trap

get something that does what we need it today, if they ever do decide to take off adult content, we have a place to go, contingency plan

TP: lots of life rafts being built, awesome, zooming in now impetus for this call, joined zoom meeting, xbiz town hall, fsc rep, survey in email about task force, have you give a sort of, some info on what the task force is doing, some of the ways the covid crisis is affecting adult

MS: industry has been shut down since march 15th, when governor of CA called for non essential businesses to close, FSC went into crisis mode, not just in terms of how do we deal with this as an industry, how do we take care of performers and crew members now not going to be able to work

we are a vulnerable population, a lot of us maybe not connected to families, come from communities we might be exiled from, it takes a certain person to work in this industry, given the discrimination want to make sure, we need to help people get by

industry shut down, production shut down, want to observe, but have to pay rent, have to do underground shoot, or do something unsafe

fundraising mode, raised $150k for performers, crew members struggling under covid, started distributing

turns out , about half performers in industry, doing alright, through crisis, because of premiums, clips, cams, rise in traffic, porn has seen dramatic rise because of shut down, people being locked at home, revenues are up, performers the only ones that can really produces, studios/sets shuttered,

if home alone can make solo content, partnered with someone willing to be on camera, can shoot sex scenes

studios reaching out to couples in quarantine, can you shoot something, we’re running out of content

in some cases performers making more money than they have

not everybody in that position, if if you have a following, already set up,

crew is in worse position, no mainstream jobs, no adult jobs

challenging time for a lot of people

one thing to be stuck at home another thing to lose your income

long term effects of covid crisis, maybe performers are in more control than ever

massive growth in performer produced content

able to make decent or exceptional living performing own content, gives you more choice when studios open up as to what shoots you’re gonna take

if youd on’t have financial incentive to go on sets because you have own income…recurring billing, content make at home, no reason to go on set, unless you want to go on specific set unless fantasy of yours or something that will give a lot of attention

covid reorganize industry in that way

interesting in that regard

regard to sets, discussions we have on task force, geared toward how do we open up and how do we open up safely

industry in some ways is well positioned for this type of discussion we test already every 14 days, protocol for production shut downs, hiv, stis already have these discussions, already talk about going on set, making sure partners are tested, workable precautions

prevent transmission, body fluids, already sanitize sets, use gloves, some cases masks, crew member don’t want to get hit with fluids

ahead of game, most other industries

new challenge, with stis, decent assurance you’re gonna be safe on set, you’re tested, partner tested, everybody tested,

with covid, performer population may be tested, person at grocery store may not be, beach may not be

unlike hiv, fairly long time between contract and transmit, about 14 days, why our testing set up the way it is, with covid, potentially infectious 2 days after contract,

task force, in light of covid, what precautions, what guidelines, how they should shoot, how often they should test, that sort of thing, it has been a bit of a challenge

TP: I hear that, kudos for doing all that hard work, recently listening to podcast, mainstream scientific analysis, look to porn industry they’ve been doing this for a quite a while, at least for stis

Dr. Eric Ding, harvard epidemiologist, health economist, medical digest of news through his twitter feed,

don’t know chance of covid to be transmitted sexually, the male testicles, didn’t know, fun fact, immune from immune system, privileged, cytocine storm, immune system over reacts, can’t get into that part of male anatomy,

imagine the way zoom is blowing up, pass system open sourced so everybody is using it to go to grocery store

crew members into pass, not for stis, similar testing system around it, not just about scene partner,

as intimate as your relationship is going to be with your scene partner, right now no evidence it can be transmitted sexually, might appear in semen, not clear if would be transmitted sexually

for adult industry, what we’re facing, not different from hollywood love scene, same level of transmission

we’ve done a lot to tell other industries, we’ve got something, not sure how it’s gonna apply to covid, can tell you how the protocols are

sports team, grocery store,

haven’t had hiv transmission on pass regulated set since 2004, shoot 100s of thousands of scenes since then

something we know how to do, we can help you with it

TP: hopefully outcome, porn saves the day, people rejoice, have to pay respects

what would be the pitch for my listeners, diverse array, pay dues to support, become member, make donations, best way and why

gonna be a huge economic pressure for people who never considered camming, making content, by financial pressure, flooding into platforms to make new revenue stream

info for newbies?

MS: why you should support industry, we’re the canary in the coal mine, censors come after us before anybody else, regulations, whether adult content producer or not, they’re gonna come after you

go to website, set up small recurring donation, get clued in, newsletter, things like survey, understand going on, performer, producer, fan,

sustain organization, protect your rights

keep you informed as to issues that we face

go to free speech coalition, donation

new, inspire program, created by performers to performers, whether you should have an agent, how the testing system works,

webinar with people success in camming, clips, in premiums, brought 6 together, held webinar, all talk about how they got to where they were,

pros to ams, how do I get started, how often should I update, what’s biggest mistake, hour or so master class, how to get started, what to be weary of

tremendous time to be performer, you have more control than ever, so many platforms to do it, own your content, never used to be able to do

go to website become a member, get an alert when it does go up

follow on twitter, fsc army

dm us, tweet at us

very active on social media

TP: if major influx of people losing jobs, realize they can ethically and legally trade their labor and artisanship in adult industry for a livelihood, critical mass, decrim all sex work

fsc probably near front lines

can of works to open, final prayer final thought

close us out

MS: we are on the front lines of decriminalization, certainly support for sex workers across the board, partnered with various organizations

tremendously creative, really enjoy being a part of it, does feel like family

the more people we get in it the more the stigma decreases, thanks so much for having me

thanks for being a member

TP: thanks so much!

Moshram Banner

Permaculture Eco-Warriors Establish The Moshram Part 2 TPP281

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In this episode I’m joined by MC Mycopath for a two part series on the past, present, and future of his personal permaculture journey and the establishment of The Moshram

My Non Verbatim Show Notes

MM:

10 years doing landscape consultations, small scale urban repurposing of people’s front and back yards, more hip with local, everything that’s taking place, microbio in soil, plants that co-mingle,

also consulting folks with health

certifications achieved through multiple biochemists

learned that the more fresh foods that we consume, the healthier our cells are

the body that takes us around here

with that, understanding and passion for that, I really wanted to be able to provide highest quality product of food for myself and others, coupled with education

spin farming, brother and I spin farming, didn’t necessarily bring in permaculture

added permaculture principle layer to spin farming

densely growing high value crops in small area

regenerate the living systems

help maintain my living system, at a cellular level, also at a financial and social level

been about 5 years, that I’ve been on this site, had multiple sites over the years

site, least likelihood of it being taken from underneath my feet, all apart of journey

seeing successes and failures in past projects

led me to finding this space

it was through a friend, that was aware that I was looking to scale up

spin farming in brothers back yard, with brother

then when on to slightly expanding at space I was at

really like to bring it all to one location and just do this

generally around vegetable crops

annuals predominantly

put in a layer of perennial crops

also longer term species, fruit trees

learned fascinating things about fruit

fruit tree requires least amount of water over long time period

gives back a lot to soil

soil is really just millions or billions of living organisms

eating pooping, dying, whole things perpetuating

through roots and leaves, branches, fruits, they drop all feeding system

year in year out

bring together this whole concept

put it at a term, silvopasture

rows of fruit trees, or some type of tree

aid in creating shade

aid in slowing down wind

not requiring a lot of water, relative to other annual crops

in between rows, would grow annual crops

maybe these annual crops are things just to regenerate soil

rotational crop, in between lettuce, grow vetch, cow pea, to reinvigorate the soil from what was depleted from what was the previous crop you cultivated

what we set out to do here

very densely packed rows of vegetable crops to sell at market and too individuals through CSA type program

longer term species of varying fruit trees

simply move forward upon goals of project, something that’s always an unknown, fortunately and unfortunately, that collaborative team of 3 individuals broke down

mediator, wasn’t sustainable, they didn’t vibe well, both wanting to walk away which they did

I was not very interested in walking away from another project, having it swept out from under me, again ,because these two egos weren’t collaborating

move post differences

differences got in the way

I wasn’t feeling, stepping away from all of the work we had done from contouring the land, to bringing in so much organic matter, infusing bacterium, all sorts of soil microbiology

perennial fruit trees, you have to wait some time, 3-5 years minimum to reap harvest

I didn’t have it in me to just be like you guys aren’t into, either am I, I am into it

don’t just want to do it here, want to perpetuate this stamp, different biomes

so cal region, mediteranean biome, only about 7 med, climates on the planet, tend to be the most lucrative for humans to co-exist with surroundings, temperatures, food crops, wild and domesticated

love to see what it’s like in other bioregions as well, other climatic elements

we’ve got going on what we have here

you came forward saying how interested you were in helping perpetuate this project, it was like the clouds parted

working on this site, we’re on 10s of acres, just working out a little over an acre, just maintenance alone for one person is daunting to say the least

just because we put together a holistic system doesn’t mean there’s no more work

actually perpetual, no end to amount of work, just in pruning things, cultivating

easy to plant seed, easy to harvest, cultivation in between, I don’t know if it’s gonna survive or not, I’ll do everything I can

lot of energy mental, physical, spiritual

one dude, isn’t gonna hold the world on his back man, either are two

TP: makes me think I’m gonna use another term for defining permaculture and call it ecological parenthood

caring for something to maturity

young families go through it, terrible twos, fighting, health similar thing

tree system here, adolescent,

MM: not as easy as dealing with child, can’t teach a tree how to fight off a squirrel, they’re bullies

TP: the timeliness of this, synchronicities will be unveiled later

rick straussman, first actual government sanctioned psychedelic research studies since the 70s, gap of 20 years

spirit molecule, interviewed,

recently, basically saying, people would ask did he take DMT,

he would give a vague answer or plausible deniability

eventually recently came out, admitted, yeah, I was doing it

I’m like fuck yeah, I wanted to hear that for so many years, scientist had the balls to do what he was talking about

ties back together, something he said, meta level life philosophy

you know, back then I had my whole career ahead of me still, a lot to lose, judged, critique, older, less of my life left, that’s much less life to lose

we’re at a point where I don’t want to piss off the wrong people, I don’t want to be a target, wait til we have resilience before we have grand opening at this site

eventually will ripened, eventually forced by demand, people will need it

sweet spot in time, security measures, support we need, capital, be in place for the time we want to open the gates

get to that point when, we did the thing, not much left to lose, tell the story, give real names, not give a fuck

certain things now, I feel like, at least statute of limitations has run out on some things, one metric

that feeling, we’ll get to a point where we don’t have that much to lose

my side of story of having fallen in love with this site, toured project in the past, wishing I could be more connected, occasion to visit

definitely feel like it was one of the most epic works in progress of so cal permaculture

ability to do it right

social permaculture dynamics of human sector, zones of humans, sector of humans, human elements, could have most beautiful property, dynamics surrounding neighbors be your worst enemy, false starts,

time energy, blood, blisters, heart ache, amount of effort that goes into permaculture project, somebody that’s they’re mission, to have that be continually ripped out in front of you

people don’t even see it

persecution of religious sects, we are the lost tribe of permies, that are constantly being haranged by neighbors

adapted us also to travel light in our personal empires

positive side effect of lifestyle of ecological romance

nudge nature to create symphonies of seed and soil

less hindered

student of Tyler Durgen, waking up after car crash with Edward Norton, the world I see, laying out strips of vennisen

hunter gathers, thriving on the carcass of industrial collapse

utopian anarchoprimitivists, intellectual elite, from eugene, green anarchist, wanna be poser,

not everybody was a poser, the heads that were the elitist, very hyper intellectual, authors and writers, wind bags, had all this talk

in eugene the founder of food not lawns, we’d go there talk bs about living primitive, blessing her with presence of our lofty conversations, decades later we don’t have our food forest, we don’t have fruit trees maturing, resentment, burnt bridges

super extra appreciate hard work that’s been done

this site, work you’ve done, huge grace, a pass, I could and should very well be punished for how far I’ve strayed from the path of planting trees, defending them, standing by them, storms, storming off of partners and lovers, mission and duty to make a stand

there’s a lot of times I’ve said this is not the hill I’m gonna die on, and this is the first time I can actually say this is a high that I would die on, for a lot of reasons, biggest gift to me, is to know

who is tantra punk, wacko jerk off wanna be tyler durgen alter ego, that split off from psychedelic ceremonies that got botched, and now this floating soul part of my old wounded self, has created this internet porn star wanna be freak, don’t have much ecological, I have bastard children trees, all over the place, to be able to be like

while you were out there, doing this thing, that could have got you in trouble, some what of an adventure, fool hardy, never would have expected that I could just cheat that time that I walked away from the permaculture path, did this freaky stuff

hey ben, dinners ready, fruit falling from trees, I just get to get back into the zone, almost 10 years since I was in deep coastal mountain broad acre permaculture, doing the trees, doing the systems right, the scale, the soil

waltz into this at a point you’d be beleagured, bromance novel cover if there ever was one

thanks to the designer of designers, tip had lift glass to him

be great to go into the shark tank part of this, now the reinforcements in the form of me and my humble but growing financial capital I can put in to keep things afloat, elbow grease, sweat equity

optimizing dance of mutuality, with responsibilities, rights, tasks, finances, between the two of us

alchemy we’re doing, the renaissance of this project, bring into 2.0 era

trajectory of , drawing from the permies community, paul wheaton, survival podcast, larry santoyo, different instructors we’ve had

business model for the site, the rebel farmers like sepp holzer, austria, kramaterohoff, epic contour narrow ponds support subtropical microclimates, high elevation fruit trees

so abundant, epic, done epic shit, considered to be the ultimate rock star, don’t think any other place on earth, other mature permculture projects, the profitability and scale and grandeur, I don’t know what I would compare to the kramaterhoff on earth

wonders of the world of permaculture tour, walk through it sometime

business model, everything else in agriculture sector, globalized race to the bottom, poison, toxic

convince people to want to buy american, niche for premium products, usually sick people who can afford to take your advice

don’t want to give crutch of supplying, want to teach them to do it themselves, leverage their acreage, their community

the idea of farming to enable other people to not be horticulturalists, shift from that as soon as possible

paradigm, living the dream, market gardeners, the biproduct of creating plenty of best varieties of food we’d like to eat, we’ll have excess, and with that excess we can play god to an extent in the economy because of how much of ecological ninjas we are

rather than try to package it all in plastic, get it in all the stores, scale it to the world

we make a more dense local economy out of it, healing center, learning center, teaching them how to fish, not selling them a fish per se

in my crude nut shell of a pitch, that’s the trajectory we’ve been most in agreement about

if somebody had infinite budget to invest, why should they buy into this as working co-op member, or non-working co-op member, how can people benefit from helping us

MM: few dudely dudes, I’ve met could really have no care to well being of nature around them, small minority of people I’ve spoken with of time on this path, over 20 years

experience with biodiesel co-op, very localized project, I would do education to engineering firms, groups

education at earth day festivals, people contribue, become non-working members of biodiesel co-op because they like what’s going on, think it’s a good direction

if anybody has capital, monetary, social, spiritual, any of the 8 forms of capital, that they are willing to share to perpetuate, the direction of this project

this may sound overzealous, I couldn’t think of a better project, or more dedicated individuals to invest that capital in

it’s one of those put your money where your mouth is

my clients in landscaping and in the health regeneration, many of them, actually buy into what I have to share, because of how I’m living my life

I’m not just using words, I’m hands in the soil, I’m doing everything I can at every corner

from what I know of you, been a crucial part of so many projects, that at one point or another it wasn’t your jive anymore for whatever reason

here we are find ourselves together on a mountain we’re will to die on

and it takes a community always

for anyone that would like to be a part of this community and see it perpetuate

be able to visit the site

local,

to benefit from the harvests of all of this, where else are you gonna put your money, time, energy, love

I’m not sure

it’s like you said man, this is one of the rare sites of southern california, any and all help, helps perpetuate a holistic project, working towards the great good of the local and world community when it comes down to it

held a lot of retreats, get people from all over the world, host in tropics, pretty good centralized area, highly abundance

ripe things to eat, throughout the year

amount of people that congregate, so diverse, so incredible, have a lot to share

at this point we have a site that any and all people interested have the ability to share

before it’s all been other people’s sites, very temporary, the time that gets spent there

long term expanded version of those experiences, and “retreats”

where else are you gonna put your resources, if you want to see great things happen, cause that’s all we’re really into

passionate

tend to only roll with those who are equally passionate about making this place a better place to be

agenda 21,

different concept of human settlement zones, from what we’re working towards here

TP: yes

to say the most and the least, that says it all, what could I add to that

nuts and bolts of this business modeling, goes back to legacy of my parents at some point will read the manifesto my father wrote for member based, for-profit nonprofit, fruit based operation, deep in heart of washington state apple orchard lands, building a massively, dense, intensive educational commercial project, rusticness, design constraint, make all tools, tools to make tools, melting down old cars, human powered, they were one of the first and most highly respected, wasn’t hippie commune, very studious, technical, published technical manual, subscribers to periodical, whether they purchased wares or we students, subscribe to catalog, kind of like micro version of mother earth news

department of making you said, interviewed mom, years ago, maybe now the time, one of those things you never know when it’s appropriate, get people on podcast, get perspectives, state of world, might be our last conversation, could go for anybody, did great interview with mom about 10 years ago, transapocalyptic, utopian for her, fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree

hard dharma, karmic seeds of melt down of family, trauma, wasted years, trouble, lot of years to get on the course that fell apart

a lot of people, children of the hippies

there’s something magical about the fact that here we are kind of at the age our parents were, as a generation, hippie, back to the land 2.0, we had woodstock,the rainbow gathering spawned from that, what are children of hippie’s doing now, actually fulfilling some of those dreams

we have now psychedelic shamanism, and not just acid, the electric kool aid test, these people went back to the land, no shamanic oversight, no elders,

even Geoff Lawton jokes, sad joke, comic tragedy, I wonder how many communes failed because they didn’t understand proper solar orientation, they bought land on north facing slopes, gave themselves an uphill battle on steep slopes facing the shadow of the sun, don’t even know why they melted down

permaculture,

we can learn from a lot of those mistakes, well positioned to demonstrate, and proudly display the next generation of the back to the land movement again at a time my mother talked about in the podcast

people went back to the land at the peak of the OPEC oil crisis in early 1970s

it wasn’t 1969 and summer of love, melt down of haight ashbury into tweaker rape culture madness,

they didn’t go directly from peak of 60s to back to the land, survivalist, apocalyptic thing, cities going to evaporate and collapse, economy gonna collapse, have to head to hills and start building a future

but brought in patriarchy, monoculture, only little bits of eastern mysticism

wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for that

now, okay, this is for me the most pure and karmically cleansed and most righteous set of circumstances to do your thing

are you really these eco artisans the whole world should pay attention to, or destined to fail

may not be the last place I ever work on

do world tour of biomes

if you take permaculture design course you want to be like a army ranger, navy seal, eco macguevery, swiss army knife, want to be deployed in every climate

because you know how to do things like harvest snow melt for nursery underground

be a bad ass shit, being a bad ass eco warrior with all this knowledge

do what special forces and green berets, what if all the engineering and money and investing and capital, everything that went into napalm and agent orange, if instead of destroying ecology, all that cultural engineering of warfare, went into actually creating a more resilient opposition through permaculture

tactical permaculture, make it impossible for them to put land mines in territory you want to defend, created thorny trellising, motes, father in military

being a bad ass, be tactical, have a reason to train, not mma, good for them but

wanna have something I love that’s worthy of defending that would keep me in shape just by working it, origins of kung fu and farming

bit of a tirade from me

MM:

I really like how you brought up that the fruit does not fall far from the tree, parents

definitely feel, that’s a thing that goes on in nature, we’re a part of it

we’re carbon copies of these people we call our parents

we emulate them in so many ways, because of the signature for which they gave us, dna

as father was one of most brilliant men I’ve ever met in my life

I would come forward to father with things I’ve learned, he would share how could he thought it was, what it made him think about

prior too, a little apprehensive, most brilliant man, hey check this out, not knowing what kind of feedback, always positive re-enforcement

honoring that we can do as individuals in relationship to our ancestors, that can be very important for mental scape, how we conductor ourselves in our lives

bro, sounds like a spitting image of your dna tree

I would imagine your mother and father had some similar thing for them

fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree

TP: I should shout out thank you to your father, have to name the library after him

lots of bro time to catch up on, and create that space where we can, aya ceremonies, 2 or 3 generations in one ceremony of family members, pretty epic

we’re healing ourselves, healing each other, healing the masculine, and creating a safe and welcoming space for the feminine to be free to be fully expressed

said before no offense, I kinda feel like, well it goes back to waynes world, fully functional babe layer, you can design for the woman in you, and the woman you want on you, save 9th form of capital for another episode

not a monastery, not womanizers either, between monastery and rapey womanizer cult, we’re probably somewhere in the middle

we need our other ethical brothers to step up, we have some healing to do in our tribe of permaculture, takes a lot of those talks about our fathers and what they did and didn’t teach us

so, that conversation is an open forum, its fun to shoot guns and practice your kicks and punches, equally important to break down and let yourself be, pummelled and tenderized by letting go of trauma, letting brother hood energy find those deep wounds and fractures, more energy buried we could be apply to our tree parenthood, soil parenthood, aquaculture parenthood, seed parenthood

MM:

along those lines of the multigenerations of lineage through psychedelic experience, its always bewildered me, with my psychedelic experiences with mushrooms, everytime I sense my grandfather,at first really weird thing, now a presence I’m aware of, hear and feel mutterings, only knew for short period of my life

at this point it’s very interesting, grandfather said, you’re back, maybe I’m back, it’s nice to be with you

thanks for helping to perpetuate my father,

what can I do for us

great thing

TP: it’s like working for a company, at office chair, every once in a while the owner comes in, the day the owner comes in, checking it out, what’s your name, trippy, ancestor worship is a thing

use it or lose it

I feel in this life, pretty damn abandoned by ancestors, been torn asunder to depths of hell such that ancestors have been blocked off by dark armies of hell, demons, but we’re gonna compost the shit out of them, find that the spirit guides were always there, they were just blocked, we didn’t make it easy for them to get back to us

of all the times I’ve felt I don’t know if I belong here, don’t know what I should be doing here, try to destroy ego, never lasts, very few times and place where I feel there is pure righteousness

liberate this land from all the plastic, multigenerational journey

dance with past and future, toxic gick, pure nature, spirits definitely guiding us

applauding efforts, works cut out for you, each one teach one, clean it up, scale it out

microcosm of what has to be done for the whole planet, on every planet

MM: not controlled by forces that think they’re higher

TP: decentralized, mycopathic, path of mycology

talk about martial arts, personal development, brother hood, men’s group experience that we’re working on and developing synthesis of spiritual, self defense, fitness through working the land, grace of being connected to your yin, notion of not just another wet noodle retreat center, traipsing around in loosest clothing, look at me I look like I just jumped out of a Rambo set, and yet I’m spiritual, dancing, smelling flowers, appreciating all the rainbows, but I can also do some ninja rolls, lift some heavy shit, drag some shit around, and do what’s gotta be done, ideal of a shaolin temple, double dragon fruit

playing up this idea, thinking about, if I was a kid, in the peak of my GI Joe fan boyness I would love to be shooting airsoft guns, tactical training with seed shot pellets, was nature boy, played in nature

how much fun families can be having, applying energy going into videos or going into being a boxer, mma fighter

masculine energy, protection, defense, epic garden project, for masculine energy to balance itself and exhaust itself, place for healthy catharsis, healthy relationships, families, we can both speak to

will be legacy to leave behind, a martial, permaculture, ecological, new martial culture as well, no surprise, or coincidence that we both, been blessed by profound journey’s into what other brutish me respect, not just purple breathers, also to some degree bad asses

love to hear you talk about, the spirit of the dragon fruit that animates you and your kung fu gardening techniques

MM:

made reference to that hippie thing, an elder at one of the rainbow gatherings I was sitting with , great acronym, term hippie, happy intelligent person, pursuing infinite excellence

never my thinking when it came to hippies, people that smelled bad, sat around got high and kept sitting around

just talking isn’t accomplishing,

pursuing infinite excellence, taking it to another level, punk rock perspective

you are a hippie, you smell like scum, I’m your worst enemy, a middle class street punk

and I always resonated with that, really nice to get that different perspective of what hippie could be

greater mobility in body, sought out chi gong master, chinese yoga for lack of better terms

not just stretching

entire philosophy, after about a year of training, sifu said, training is great, very yin, balance out with kung fu, more yang,

open to this, cool

always wanted, wanted to have military training for various reasons it wasn’t something that happened, along same line of hippie

kung fu, nearly synonymous, life mastery

mastering whatever life is for me, to me

level of giving back that comes from all of that

began training kung fu

4-5 days a week sometimes 2 sessions a day, my body started to really get in tune with motions, weapons training, when we think back to the shaolin, where kung fu started

these were farmers, weapons were their farm tools, really started to come through as my body got accustomed to movements, started using these implements in the farm, body now knew how to use them in a more appropriate way

ergonomics

rake or hoe, swing it out with arms, shoulders, and back, or put it out there and move hips back and forth, all power in your hips

spirals up through feet, hips, outward

utilizing that technique with farm tools

new relationship with tools and how to work with land and my body, all in same go

weeding, clearing debris, chopping things down, practicing kung fu

martial arts/life mastery

mastering far more of my body, tools, and tools that work with land

symbiosis, something that we can all benefit to apply in our lives, in any way shape or form

not everybody’s gonna go be a farmer

maybe you’re pushing a vacuum

you can cause strain or you can no cause strain to body, which then causes strain or not on the body, perpetuates through spirit

something that I’m still evolving into I feel like but its very empowering

self reliance

being able to provide for yourself, doesn’t just mean growing food, having land, also means self defense

never know where you’re gonna find yourself

bring those things into all of those life practices, another science that fills one of those holes in that permaculture raft we get pushed out into the water

brings it all back around, self feeding, self perpetuating

mentally physically and spiritually

TP:

brings us full circle

pleasant meanderings, through path of this convo, summary of most of our various contexts, working or grubbin on fruit, whatever it is, comings and goings, as we’ve been carving out this niche for ourselves

always reminds me of the movie that got me first enchanted with martial arts, van damme, blood sport

here we are, tactical permaculture moment going back to deepest roots of romance with nature and martial arts

ninjitsu master, frank dux, he was talking to parents, european parents of young frank dux, depicted to be wine farmers, vineyard, meeting of parents

train with japanese ninjitsu master

frank told me you grow vines, boys like vines need training, martial science brings mind, body, spirit together

we’re fulfilling that prophesy

we’re dudes,

point about military, I mentioned this not too long ago, in jest, valid point

hey america, if you would have given me a real war, or real cause to fight for, I would have served on the front lines, it’s been nothing but bullshit, you don’t get to have this body/mind

don’t give traumatic brain injury, lead poisoning, blow my limbs off, make me unable to sustain a relationship, cut my VA benefits for using cannabis

you don’t get any of that shit, not in this lifetime, maybe that could change, who knows what battles will need to be fought

the joke I made, we’re not we’re not less of bad asses that we didn’t get military training, we’re actually more, if we can be, without having the training of those instructors, and we can train our damn selves, read same manuals, same marksmanship, survival training, mindset of discipline, selection

break you down

I was my own drill segerant, life circumstances carved my ass from cookie dough to wood

health, wellness, survival, comes from putting skin in the game

better to have warrior in garden than gardener in war,

debilitating malformed meme of utopian pacifism

idea that we all need to be genderless, a mush of micro trauma egg shell walking, I’m a man, I embrace that, I don’t need impose, I embrace and love and support cherish diversity, space for everyone

phrase, vin armani brought to attention:

seed conversations of what I’d like to call and have been implementing

permaculture training experience for tactically minded, some of the best training, with hardcore lesbian women, guns and ammo, blades, bows and arrows plaster their walls instead of boy band posters, those are my best friends

ongoing thing that, I want to be the guy that the butch warrior lesbians like to play with on a full moon when they feel like, interesting romance, another story

have to cover my ass and say it’s not hyper masculine, toxic masculine militia

who wants to be securing the perimeter, that’s what we need first, can’t have whole tribe or family unless we can defend them

call to action, strong willed, strong minded, disciplined, people who want to be bangin sticks as they say in pekiti tirsia kali training, continual life long conditioning and training, being a warrior , really mean something for good cause

quote: michael hopf, those who remain,

hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times,

put that in your pipe and smoke it

enough from me

over and out, roger

thank you again

MM: honor brother, insightful, exciting having this conversation, whoever you are out there listening, hope you were able to glean something from it

summary, I feel like, initially I’d stated how going back to permaculture, can be applied to anything that you do, require taking a permaculture design course with instructor you’d like to learn from, and personality types are thing

I have studied a lot of things in my short time here, does always come back to the principles of permaculture

when I educate others on health, they don’t know it but they’re getting a quick permaculture design course for the body

utilizing all these principles around the landscape we call our bodies

a bunch of cells living together

body, gardening cells, out there gardening soil conditions to provide foods for our cells to utilize

its one of the most valuable trainings that I’ve ever had in my life,

people that also take these course, share similar sentiment

that’s about it

end this with as mc mycopath

end a lot of health lectures with a rap, haven’t done this one in a while, see how it goes

TP: gotta get that out in the drum circle, put some beats on that, hippie drum beats on that

more to come

this conversation is to be continued, next, while we’re still tying up lose ends, give audio tour of integrated systems and logic of design of systems, address

situational report, what we’ve got going what we need help with, if people have time or resources or expertise, what’s been established what’s being established, hearing a bit about what we’re processing, actual road map of what we’re doing, laid out the backstory

of what could be an epic opportunity for ourselves

all sliding scales of wealth, we’re providing

free offerings online, all kinds of content, you’ll be whippin up a podcast, holding the camera for each other to do a lot of the teaching we want to

following up with some a/v content

be comin at cha again soon

big love to you and to all the forces seen and unseen that made it possible to be at this point

Francesca Gentille

Sustainable Sexual Liberation with Francesca Gentille TPP24

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Francesca Gentille is the co-author of “The Marriage of Sex & Spirit,” the radio host of “Sex: Tantra & Kama Sutra”, and the Director of The Integrative Arts Institute.  She is a sex and intimacy counselor who presents internationally on the use of Sacred Eros and Sacred BDSM in recovery from trauma.

In this episode we discuss sacred sexuality’s past, present, and future by drawing upon anthropological data, our personal life experiences, and Francesca’s  wealth of knowledge and wisdom from years of amazing work in the field. She share’s her tantra life history of personal growth and development, then we explore many issues that are close to our hearts and minds. Ultimately she bestows as sense of great hope for sustainable sexual liberation, including the interpersonal and professional domains of sexuality.

Connect with her online:

 

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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin I want to thank you French biscuit in PA for joining me for episode number 24 of the township hunt podcast it’s a great honor to have you here as listen to all of your podcasts and follows your work and I’m just really excited and honored to be speaking with you so if you could give us some background on your sort of Contra life history and about what you’re up to these days I will take you so much bad for you including me in this and giving me an opportunity to share because I think that is a desire to make a difference and to do that we really need people like you who helped us get our message in our calling out to the world and Catholics in Wisconsin and there were those negative and conflicting messages about the body about sexuality about being a woman and if it’s meant is that I was only supposed to have sex once I was married that sex outside of marriage was a sin that in order to be thought of as a respect for a good woman I could always say no about sex and I should be very wary of anyone who wanted hit maybe even put their arm around your kiss me and I should also look at my body as a source of Temptation you know that my body could lead me astray and being raised with these kind of messages I became really terrified of sex and when I was he know dating age if a man with the very young somewhere around 1415 that if I kept going like this I would end up being frigid by the time that I’m married I would have been so patterned in my brain and in my responses around fear and sexuality that I wouldn’t be able to enjoy sexuality and so I began to start a process that I would later discover in Psychology is called successive approximation where I would hold in my mind that you have to be waking and sleeping. with Matt then I also was very very careful who I chose to date and partner with so that I have always chosen men really honored my pacing in the sexuality and if I want to go very very slow if I want to spend months or years kissing we’re just talking and I choose honor that and so I had the opportunity to incompetence lay next to a boyfriend naked without having sex just to become comfortable with the naked male by and I also was with someone from 14-223 that we really started out as friends and your friends three years friends eventually I absolutely loved him heart Body Mind and Spirit it was true very deep very sincere love not a crush and we eventually became lovers and had a very beautiful and vibrant and sweet sex life but it’s 23 he came out as gay which was profoundly shattering for me at that time and we’ll just started I think a deeper drive and curiosity how do they come together how do they make their choices is it are we gay or straight are we at 10 years later when we got together for a dinner I said you know how did it work that you identify as gay but we had this really virutex left and then I’ve had more sexual dysfunction issues with the men who might consider themselves heterosexual and he couldn’t that we had become so close you know a mental alignment the spiritual alignment alignment that we have become so close that there was a way to get my gender no longer mattered and the love they felt for me inspired ignited his erotic nature so his love for me was actually LED and his arousal for me was led by not his cock but by his heart never said a certain tone or even a certain standard for my sexuality that I would later years and years later cuz I didn’t really start studying until more probably my early forties that I would find out years later was there a contract that instead of leading with r instinctual neurobiological you know you smell like food let’s fuck you know rather than leading with that we learn to slow down we learn to be conscious of our breathing conscious of our responses your am I attractive am I judging you positively or negatively am I male or female arousal whether that’s 4 hours or whether that’s for a lifetime and that by having this experience in my you know 14-223 in a way it is started a pattern that would make a lot of sense when I got to Tantra is the sense of leading with the heart and letting the heart in form the rest of us rather than leading guess what are Primal nature another thing that I did start in my late twenties and early thirties started to study cross-cultural sacred sexuality so before I studied I was actually studying kind of sacred sexuality that was in that so for me personally although I will sometimes say I’m a I’m a tantra teacher because that’s easy to speak out of my mouth do you know Center teacher I really perceive myself to be a teacher and a coach that died around cross-cultural sacred arrows not just Eastern or Asian and I believe that sacred sexuality is our Birthright that it is interwoven into every single lineage of History whether we’re Jewish weather where you know of some sort of you know Arabic Middle Eastern it whether we’re European weather were African whether we’re Asian that no matter what our culture in which Mayan whatever our culture if we go back far enough we can see the anthropological shards of sacred sexuality in our tradition and I like knowing that I like researching that so that we don’t necessarily have to leave our Our Idiot I don’t have to stay at the stop being awesome beautiful awesome let’s do that but if we have to leave we don’t have to leave Christianity we don’t have to leave Judas and we don’t have to leave this why we don’t have to leave whatever tradition were part of to embrace sacred sexuality and so for me that’s very important one of the other things that I feel is very important for our listeners to know is there such a confusion between in the West End in the United States any kind of first world contemporary culture which I grew up with and feels kind of confused about how to relate to their body how to relate to the planet when we start to study in a western culture we had a tendency to focus on the body and sexuality but that. There really is a spiritual path and the goal is not a great sex life is actually the unconditional and compassionate acceptance of all that is it’s a spiritual path and just as it has a do you know who that the blissed-out recorder is not about having a great sex life this is about being incredibly compassionate human being and important people to know now look at my life compassion make a difference make a difference it make a difference if I could be compassionate about my body would it make a difference if I could be compassion about your body or about our sexuality and are our differences if I could hold this really deep compassion would that make a difference in our sex life it would absolutely so we’re now looking at something very different then you know what kind of positions can we do or what kind of position they’re breathing breathing tactics can we do to have a better sex life for a longer orgasm so the Kamasutra literally means the teachings, love to trace the teachings of the teachings about love and it was really like it was and is a spiritual path so such a nerd versus spiritual path and so I think you’re getting one we talked about Francesca’s what is Francesca’s history is it is very deeply personal experience that started a particular path and this very curious inquiring mind wanted to research cross-culturally and explore cross-cultural and still does and sit when I look at you know what am I teaching about sacred sexuality I look at everything from neurobiology psychology energy work Shamanism and teacher is teaching you their own jambalaya you know their own mixture of these little bits of what might be called classical control and lots of everything else that they know and so if you’re going to a tantra teacher it’s I feel it’s really important to ask them like you’re doing what is your background why did you choose this what do you think Nicole is what are your classes like and some country. Medic on her teacher’s sexual perspective and they have a strong bias toward polyamory and polyamory we intimate intimate ways but if you’re trying to go to class to improve your sex partner going to that Public House might actually disrupt your relationship even more so it’s important to know cuz it’s kind of like weirdest Entre come from in our country and what are might you be walking into and what do you need to ask I was starting to rain in Punta I recognized it as a sex and love addict and there was a way that I was approaching my relationship with men that was about getting my 6 and I didn’t know this because because I need to have lots of sex about two different people I wasn’t you know having sex with strangers and whiskey but what happened I had a boyfriend that broke up with me in the middle of my ARCA falling in love and usually you know as many human beings hear you fall in love in those first few weeks or months you if you stay up all night if you’re completely like you’re everything you can make love morning because that guy is actually not about the other person it’s about our own chemical dump in our body going off because something in that person that is triggered and when the drugs are stopping me it’s some it’s starting to look like you don’t touch me the way you used to do you treat me the way you used to it starts to look like the other person is prop and then after whether it’s after three months or 6 months or 9 months or two years whatever that was my power and then I would immediately fall in love with the next person so I can have that wonderful experience You’re My Favorite Drug high is a combination of love and lust just lust just love but if you put love and lust together you know that’s my heroin and so when he broke up with me in the middle of this Arc I couldn’t I couldn’t sleep I was just shaking this FYI girl this is not grieving this is withdrawals you’re going to waste all there when I recognize that fact I put myself into 12 step program for sex and love addicts anonymous American Airlines and they’re all so connected and juicy with each other videos of letting themselves go into this place of merging and high I’m having to practice Friday it was kind of like learning to be sober while spending time in a bar and it was hard my God that was hard and so I would have to work and work on my energy back but not being merged and it was hard but it created such a strong muscle so that now if I do he let you know if I’m doing a lot of killing four people if I’m doing Sexual Healing around there, I can touch their genitals I could touch their body they could be in a state of arousal and I’m not I’m not I’m not you know I’m not going to fantasize about that I’m available to hold a clear space for their healing that’s not about me and what I found is many many many people who call themselves doctors in bikinis and contracts and Country cuz for whatever reason they haven’t so when they are in those healing Simon’s with another person they ask to get very attached they actually are there on issues over the other person and can actually start to give pressure to the other person to be sexual and I’ve heard that over and over and over and over where he’s starting to give pressure like if you have sex with my badge or if you know you let me put my hand up your whatever you and the woman is not her pacing which is actually for her offense seeking Clarity from women Clarity that they never got from their mother Clarity that they have never gotten from their girlfriend and now they’re hiring and then wanting a very clear message pathway where they’re negotiating clearly about boundaries and boundaries are being held in there for something healing about the polarity and so if a country girl. Kitty says you’re in the first session we’re just going to bring together third session where I don’t you know we may never get to the genitals we won’t get to the genitals until the 4th he can relax Clarity with this woman and then she said to get excited by him and then she throws the boundaries out the door we can just go to this we can skip the three sections and just go to this right now he actually filled one day because she’s just replicated the same wording about the other women were unclear interchangeable so I think you’re starting to get a sense of me and my life to is that I’m really really drawn to where is there, where is there, in the body in the south in our ability to feel like our body our sexuality are our life is safe for us to be in and really I’m drawn to ask how can I support people to come home to their bodies in their lives in a way to three safe for them and very authentic for them and that’s that’s the kind of you know if we use one definition of Contra is the weeds that Hunter has a weaving and another way of saying leaving his illness is that’s the kind of from her that I’m drawn to is how do I support each individual to come into their holness and of course of course yeah that’s in my journey to you know how do I come into my home this how do I embrace all that I am including my desires in my Primal and my reactive the including my compassion in my Divinity how do I bring all of it in a way that is loving for me but is not harmful for others because this is also an issue that comes up in a sex-positive community a lot is your freedom freedom we’ve been so shamed by the culture region so limited by the culture I personally believe it that’s an immature attitude and that the child is struggling for three of the teenagers struggling for its freedom but when were an adult we understand we have responsibilities and that my freedom has to be limited by where my actions affect others so I may want to I want to dance and I’m a wanted flitter my music really loudly and can I have colored lights and it’s not fun for them so I need to either turn down my music but I need my freedom is limited by the fact that desire is going to create a negative impact on another human being it is not okay it is not mature adult to say I need this because it’s kind of my freedom we get to stay around the house with my you know music is so I would like to do that but as a mature adult that I need to collaborate with you how is it that work will you be out of the house like to just think when I’m single maybe they’re looking for a dump for relationship and I’m just looking for something really fun so my freedom when I balance my freedom with responsibility my freedom and my desire for Freedom my desires will still guide me but my maturity will allow those desires to be expressed gracefully and responsibly you’re getting a little bit of my soapbox here is that Peter Peter Pan not allowing themselves to mature and do I want to love my body I want to look like I prove that every single desired vanity I have to approve it I want to create a pro but there’s a difference between loving myself so whatever comes up in my little mind and taking action on what I’m thinking I’m going to give you different examples I had a question just really hard wanted to work with and I was 20 or 21 at the time and I didn’t know about boundaries I didn’t know how to really express myself and I felt very powerless in that situation and I would go home and I didn’t know what to do with all that anger really that I had towards her and I came up with a really great idea that I was going to allow myself to fantasize about killing her did I ever harm her no no I never I never did anything for me to kind of this place some of my anger and not take it out on her I sign up for the confusion of a sex positive culture between what I would call a personal fantasy something that I’m going to keep in my mind in my mind and display some energy by having it. Maybe would be really lovely maybe I have a fantasy And my partner’s at the time and I ended up going to a very warm ocean and it was the perfect fantasy to bring into reality this is what I have in some but I’m not going to mention I don’t want them to be brought into another example is I have a fantasy about rafting me at sunset in a beautiful blue silk down get this like sailing into the bay at Sunset and the wind is blowing in his hair and come to the beach and no wake me up in his arms and take me on the road back to the back to the ship in my fantasy somehow he’s able I’m walking along the beach with my dress never gets wet he gets to the beach he puts me in the rowboat we go back to the ship where are the ship and I never get seasick and it in real life I actually get seasick very easily I never even though he’s being great he does not get ripped and it’s now folded neatly next to us even though my back is on the wooden plank of the. I do not get splinters in my fantasy it all works beautifully but I’m smart enough to know that if I try to do that in reality my dress would get ruined and I be kissed I get splinters and that would not make me happy and I probably get seasick the wisdom of of the Amazon and and Beyond and so is that something that you have I just thought I remember reading somewhere you know or talk to you at some point about how this is so like you could be hired by the more formal above ground and sectors of social work or Community work with where you can be brought in to bring some of the stuff that would normally be or I guess it’s just it’s a very interesting Cutting Edge of an intersection and I if I’m not mistaken that’s that you you are like sort of partially in that world 2 of of social work or is that something I understand correctly or social worker social worker y’all are layout string this conversation back and see where where I where I am placed social work as well as all the modalities of counseling and healing you know like they are all part and parcel to supporting and upholding status quo capitalist system so I’m going to like you know like you know also having been in the punk scene also had a big impact on my my party now thought you know in terms of healing these wounds we have to look at that you know we can’t we can’t say like that are healing is going to be independent of a world that is reeling and suffering from the continuation of this system as it is and so that’s where I for me like bringing capitalism into the equation is is something that’s real tricky it’s something that I feel needs to be kind of understood that you know we we can’t just rely on having sting services that we can pay for because that creates a gap you know where some people are going to have accessible abilities to to the healing and others won’t and that’s that’s not healthy for anyone and and also that it doesn’t address the root cause of why we need social workers to begin with and why we need counseling and all of that so I really like the notion of cultural healing that’s where more where I would be comfortable in any way kind of looking at myself as any kind of healer I don’t think we we can really heal individuals that’s really something that you know a person will need to and it’s not like they can be facilitated to do their own healing work but nobody can fix us we have to fix ourselves that’s that’s more I think a more powerful Paradigm to be apart of but you know I I I have worked in the realm I focused therapy and you know I have spent quite a bit of time around the spirit plant medicines and seeing how the plant medicines have assisted and I do I do continue continuously work to increase my knowledge and wisdom around working with us plants and and that also brings us back into that hole realm of discussion around you know ancestors and working with them or perhaps that’s something we haven’t really touched upon but maybe she said it’s just that in any form of healing that we do I guess for me the important thing that I really try to bring into whatever I do connecting back with her ancestors and healing the trauma of how we were disconnected from those ancestors and how that plays out in any kind of sexual wounds or emotional wounds that we carry and so that’s something that I I I feel like the role of initiation and ritual can can really do and that’s that’s been its Province ever since people began doing patrols I think it’s to build upon the legacy of their ancestors and to draw and their their help and support cool said that yeah thank you for helping me understand the other parameters a little better and and 100% there with you I have I have been because I live in the United States where there’s different laws around no prostitution in in how that affects the healing with sexual touch and pleasure as medicine and stuff like that is a lot more yes I understand in in Canada there’s there’s a lot more interesting legal space in order to do Hands-On Sexual Healing work relative to the US where it’s completely off limits in so I because of that adapting to that reality and also is a permaculture designer myself I have to think very deeply about how to navigate this issue of for-profit healing work that kind of in most sectors is about like you said I’ll put in my own words it’s like they want to know if if the if you’re at a time of time robot that supposed to be producing a set amount to be a productive member of the of the GDP then then if you’re not functioning properly than the the goal of the mainstream social work or psychotherapeutic or psychiatric Fields they’re trying to get you back into the rat race as soon as possible and they’ll do that with drugs with talk therapy or whatever that is about avoiding through tissue which is the disconnection from urethane from a healthy holistic wild habitat you know a night as a primitivist I see that you know the solution to your Neurosis is to retry belies and Get Growing your own food again in and rebuild that fabric so you know there with you on that tension about right livelihood in and taking money for healing and what is he doing so I really like what you said and that just is going to it’s going to help me a lot looking at healing the cultural level and healing the if I’m understanding right and I’ll put a couple my own words on it but I feel like we’re trying to build the scaffolding or were trying to design the context for people to take the responsibility of a personal healing and gone to that journey and so if you if what would you say are some practical skills are tools from all of your things that you would teaching and training and a things that you discovered in your own journey to where you’re in power tools for empowerment that you suggest or are resources that you suggest people Explorer to if they’re called to do the cultural healing work weather for profit or non-profit. Some dance between the two or it and then what what are some recommendations for people who are on their own path and aren’t necessarily called to do the the cultural healing yeah I mean it’s it’s a pretty vast subject that one but I think that a few points that I could think about and talk about our that I’m going to this idea of bringing you back in the station rights and recognizing that in the absence of them what do we have you know we are we are sadly in there without initiated Elders so many of us and if there are any of Elders that hold that ability to to guide those those ones are those are worth their weight in gold you know there really is people that we should try to lift up and and give them their recognition and see you know and then in the absence of that it’s like we kind of by default Our Generations people that will have to hopefully fulfill that and reach a place where we can actually help upcoming generations to go in a way that they don’t have to completely go it alone and and figure it out on them on their own the way that so many of us have had to and so there is a movement around Rites of Passage I sit on the board if you passageways which is a network that focus is squarely on you no Rites of Passage for you coming of age from all different walks and and and modalities you know some of them are our Boys to Men oriented some of them are girls to women some of them are starting to incorporate non gender binary kind of approaches as well which is good and and this whole focus on bringing back the ancestors into looking at Rites of Passage is is starting to happen and something that I focused on and so that’s that’s a resource you know people can go to youth passageways. Oregon and look at what programs are out there and they can also think about how they can add to that list and bring in things that are needed around especially around sexuality and relationship which is often I noticed kind of a big gap in a lot of programs out there you know because they’re confined confined or constrained by the conservative values where they take place and you know what school system is you know this is one of those places lagging for that kind of thing so it’s a role that I think that many people who understand the need can step into and cultivate as career paths you know and some people are pig figuring out how they can weave their credentials says on Sexual Health Educators or sexual therapist or sexual trauma or no trauma-based therapists you know into this realm of initiation and that’s that needs to happen on a on an increased level the other I see a lot of because of what I was saying around looks really don’t how many Avenues to learn other than through you know what the books in the workshops and offerings around sexuality thoughts unfortunately are not rooted in in people’s only need two lineages generally speaking you know so the whole Tantra movement is pretty much so you know a cultural appropriator of New Age fight version of those Traditions that would have been squashed by Christianity especially and so I think there’s work to be done there and as much as possible Retreat retrieving reconstructing are reconnecting with our own ancestral Traditions which I’m sure you know had their own knowledge wisdom around how to how to raise healthy harmonious individuals with healthy sexualities from from the vantage point of how what little I do know has been has been done in indigenous cultures and without wanting to appropriate for them from them I’ll just give way of examples out of that you know in and certain cultures that are studied like the Mayan culture and I think to some degree on certain places within Creek culture there’s examples of how as societies you know that the children are raised from an early age 2 reach a point where they understand how to how to harmonize with the other sex and how to to look after each other and that’s just a very basic principle that I feel like you know that’s that’s worth kind of learning how to integrate into our family structures if we have children that were raising just to keep in mind that you know there is a need for them to learn skills around things like consent and around being responsible with with one’s sexual energies and and I needs to start before they reach that age of adolescence where they’re just harder to connect with if you haven’t built up that Foundation so that’s something that I think about will do you so if I if if we check out that the organization that you mention is it would that be good place to find and something like a more enlightened or more conscious like sexual education curriculum or guidebook do you know if people were working on something like that so if I know if you know parents who were going through the puberty of their child that they have something that’s not just this cold clinical Western and even though that sort of evolving a little bit you know with things like a sack didn’t and whatnot I see a lot but the The ancestral wisdom and you know the ceremonial Rites of Passage you know how does it how does the Modern Family say okay well you’re about to start feeling you know hormonal Energy’s how do we give you know create even if it’s just within their family or their Community yoga or whatever is something more than what’s being offered in the normal sex ed or what they’re listening in gangster rap music and watching on sitcoms obviously you know it’s enough for lack of lot of alternative options it’s one one place to look and we’re always looking for others so whenever we discover something then we will see to auditory resources and we are trying to vet those resources and those organizations to make sure that they really are you know at least there’s some some level of you know safe recommendation that we can give for those those organizations we’re not we’re not in the position to really kind of completely you know set standards but we are trying to we have a code of what we call it a cross-cultural protocol so we do look at that aspect that you have for what we’re talking about that’s you know if that’s another layer that we will hopefully get to eventually and I do know that there are people within our Network who are really strongly focused on this particularly around girls to women kind of education and and Rites of Passage and some of the Boys to Men once but I think it’s also something we need to to enhance as well oh that’s great yeah that’s that’s that’s what I wanted to hear so that I can just refer people to this ongoing and so and then the LSI is kind of its there’s a Facebook I’ve been interacting with the the Facebook group for a while so is that something you recommend people plug-in I mean that’s the goal of that is to feature blogs and generate discussions from those blogs and also to establish a resource of services as well as information and so that’s you know running on in a very limited volunteer capacity and so you know it’s something that I hope will eventually become a very powerful resource but already it’s you know it’s been feedback that I’ve received that you know even just the the group that we have on Facebook somebody posted recently. You know it’s really help them in their in their path which is nice to hear and I’ve heard that a few times and I try to curate that group in such a way where it’s like you know it’s trying to generate discussion and it’s it’s trying to be a safe space where where people can get into some of those I’m intimate revealing is of what what’s going on in their lives one of the things that kind of came out of love sex intelligence local as a connection with Tamara and the love school that they have which is a very congruence philosophy to love sex intelligence and they’re their work to try to create or with to create safe spaces for people to to share stories of what’s going on in their intimate lover sexual lives and and B witnessed in a way that is non-judgemental where they’re not being flooded with advice but more just being witnessed which is kind of connected to that whole framework for Rites of Passage itm witnessing each other and so it’s it’s trying to also look at how you know communities can succeed in their in their goals which might include you know like being more sustainable or being an alternative to the systems around us and also being a part of a more peaceful kind of culture through filling this hole that is often where things go wrong where people are are are not feeling safe to talk about these these human experiences around wounding around are our hearts and our sexuality so I’ve been part of a Practice Group here that has been circulating also to other parts of BC and I think it’s a really it’s a really powerful movement to be a part of yeah we’re getting close to an hour or so I have to take a few more minutes and I’m get a couple thoughts and feelings some responsible for 1 something that his is coming up for me that I think it’s really empowering is this like idea that wouldn’t it be nice if some of us started to think of ourselves as aspiring Elders I’ve never thought of it that way until this conversation and there’s a little spark of joy and me that that says you know puts in context the the punk rock lifestyle that I had of live fast Die Young and just you know if it’s not throwing yourself into the meat grinder of insurrectionary activism you know with this sort of Death Wish you know this martyr complex or whatever it’s like those are really unsustainable archetypes to follow and they leave a lot of people when they get to my age in about 35 like in a sort of existential crisis that will the revolution didn’t happen and I didn’t get killed I didn’t die in the gutter you know I mean what am I going to do now and it’s like well maybe it’s time to become an aspiring Elder and you know clean up your act and and then start to think about how you’re going to make it easier cuz I there’s a lot of things that I had to go through that I would seriously love to have no one else ever have to go through and if you know if we can live in that. you know that is what you’re supposed to think that I think of you say you know you can you can learn from the wisdom of Elders who have gone through and made the mistakes that you’re probably going to go through or you can just be hard-headed and learn all your lessons the hard way but I mean we’ve had to learn a lot of hard lessons in the absence of the eldership but I think if we take on that there’s a yeah me too. It seems obvious but really the way you put it his medicine for me to think you know it’s a dignified path to be an aspiring Elder and then it makes you not be so how do I can help you defeat that that that grinding pressure that oh my I’m going to lose my looks and I’m going to lose my energy and I’m going to be in the state of deprecation towards death and that’s very much the greatest fear of the western manicured Uno photoshopped airbrushed identity like you’re not really giving any hope that aging will be of any benefit in here just marginalized further and further so I thank you for that serve very much still give that time sacred eldership dignity not a light title to hold I think the true Elder wouldn’t really feel comfortable in it cuz it’s defining attributes of an elder that is really one that can help that role be the best it can be is one that is is really accountable is really present isn’t so on the move that if you can’t you know be relied upon to be there for the people that it serves now needs to ideally be in the in the fellowship of other Elders to kind of keep it in in in check in a way like we have to watch for the Cole group kind of phenomenon where people you know place a lot of weight on that person and in a way that can privilege them in certain ways and also lead to potential like power distortions and things like that you know it’s it’s only human that people will make mistakes and so having that kind of accountability of other people and also that time yeah you have people heart or a different there’s always like in every phase of life with the lifecycle there’s there’s like the maturing phases and so there’s like you know there’s a baby elder there’s enough adult Elder and then Senior Elder and so it’s just we have to learn at each stage of Life how to become the mature version of what that stage is and says just something to think about as well and it’s good to to get your feet wet early on in life so that you know we can have deep roots and and the and those are the kinds of people to like in the Tamara situation out of the black community they have a circle of Elders who are basically people who have grown with a community enough that they know the people in their community and then they serve a role as potential kind of like the Matchmaker but you know in a way where people can approach them in and ask them like you know I’m interested in this person and they can help you assess whether this is the right time or what is a good or bad idea and you know they can kind of that. Whole courtship in a way that you know really I think I wish there were more of those people around here don’t you let me relax you know learn the hard way what does that we’re just not compatible certain people in The Matrix the I mean yeah I’m not I’m not a political scientist of the Matrix but I will say that what got me peaked on the ecstatic trance dance group ritual ceremony festival thing was it really when I saw I think it was maybe the second movie or maybe it was the second or the third but there was a scene where they’re just getting down to like Juno Reactor I think was a soundtrack of a butt there is something beautiful about seeing the different the warrior culture Guided by elders and of course there’s different the archetypes playing out in Conflict split that to me was took it further than then the Star Trek Federation is a futuristic Elder guided Council guided kind of reality so that was kind of fun but yeah so that’s what came to mind when you’re at we’re talking about that be so cool if you’re early sexual oracle’s who you go to you know if we’re going to give you insights and maybe even have name your child for you or something cool like that you know be so cool but right on then will I worry about at the hours so do you have any closing touch you want to share or any other resources or should we just I’ll post the the links that you mention and I’ll definitely encourage people to stay informed and keep an eye out for your anything coming up you have any appearances or anything exciting like that coming up you want to mention I think yeah I think I covered a lot of it and I just wanted to maybe plant a seed while I have the airwaves here about something that I’d I’d eventually like to work on presenting which is around insert Intercultural relationships and also decolonizing our relationships as well and just thinking about how how we can heal some of these ancestral traumas and use that has as as a means to strengthen our relationships and also our society right on I’ll be looking forward to everything that you’re you’re expressing in the world and I hopefully yeah maybe sometime in the future we can talk about skill sets for Beyond Christian monogamy that would be a great topic so yeah how would you feel about that maybe we can sometime in the next few months follow up with something like that. Maybe by the by the time I’ll have more of a personal lived experience to a base conversation around that I think you know in terms of people who are already I don’t know how many listeners here are on a Christian spiritual path without that many but if the energy and gnosticism and sacred marriage not going to the alchemical top in the in the Gnostic tradition but I I wouldn’t make any claims to be an expert in that area but it’s definitely something to look at cool alright then we will be in touch and will follow up sometime in the future and thank you so much so be I really enjoyed it and I know it’s taking us a while to get this to get this done but I think it was perfect and I couldn’t ask for anything more so you have a wonderful day. Take care and keep for listening to the touch upon podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is to see me and if you want a podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been at Contra Punk. Com Thomas Day