Francesca Gentille is the co-author of “The Marriage of Sex & Spirit,” the radio host of “Sex: Tantra & Kama Sutra”, and the Director of The Integrative Arts Institute. She is a sex and intimacy counselor who presents internationally on the use of Sacred Eros and Sacred BDSM in recovery from trauma.
In this episode we discuss sacred sexuality’s past, present, and future by drawing upon anthropological data, our personal life experiences, and Francesca’s wealth of knowledge and wisdom from years of amazing work in the field. She share’s her tantra life history of personal growth and development, then we explore many issues that are close to our hearts and minds. Ultimately she bestows as sense of great hope for sustainable sexual liberation, including the interpersonal and professional domains of sexuality.
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin I want to thank you French biscuit in PA for joining me for episode number 24 of the township hunt podcast it’s a great honor to have you here as listen to all of your podcasts and follows your work and I’m just really excited and honored to be speaking with you so if you could give us some background on your sort of Contra life history and about what you’re up to these days I will take you so much bad for you including me in this and giving me an opportunity to share because I think that is a desire to make a difference and to do that we really need people like you who helped us get our message in our calling out to the world and Catholics in Wisconsin and there were those negative and conflicting messages about the body about sexuality about being a woman and if it’s meant is that I was only supposed to have sex once I was married that sex outside of marriage was a sin that in order to be thought of as a respect for a good woman I could always say no about sex and I should be very wary of anyone who wanted hit maybe even put their arm around your kiss me and I should also look at my body as a source of Temptation you know that my body could lead me astray and being raised with these kind of messages I became really terrified of sex and when I was he know dating age if a man with the very young somewhere around 1415 that if I kept going like this I would end up being frigid by the time that I’m married I would have been so patterned in my brain and in my responses around fear and sexuality that I wouldn’t be able to enjoy sexuality and so I began to start a process that I would later discover in Psychology is called successive approximation where I would hold in my mind that you have to be waking and sleeping. with Matt then I also was very very careful who I chose to date and partner with so that I have always chosen men really honored my pacing in the sexuality and if I want to go very very slow if I want to spend months or years kissing we’re just talking and I choose honor that and so I had the opportunity to incompetence lay next to a boyfriend naked without having sex just to become comfortable with the naked male by and I also was with someone from 14-223 that we really started out as friends and your friends three years friends eventually I absolutely loved him heart Body Mind and Spirit it was true very deep very sincere love not a crush and we eventually became lovers and had a very beautiful and vibrant and sweet sex life but it’s 23 he came out as gay which was profoundly shattering for me at that time and we’ll just started I think a deeper drive and curiosity how do they come together how do they make their choices is it are we gay or straight are we at 10 years later when we got together for a dinner I said you know how did it work that you identify as gay but we had this really virutex left and then I’ve had more sexual dysfunction issues with the men who might consider themselves heterosexual and he couldn’t that we had become so close you know a mental alignment the spiritual alignment alignment that we have become so close that there was a way to get my gender no longer mattered and the love they felt for me inspired ignited his erotic nature so his love for me was actually LED and his arousal for me was led by not his cock but by his heart never said a certain tone or even a certain standard for my sexuality that I would later years and years later cuz I didn’t really start studying until more probably my early forties that I would find out years later was there a contract that instead of leading with r instinctual neurobiological you know you smell like food let’s fuck you know rather than leading with that we learn to slow down we learn to be conscious of our breathing conscious of our responses your am I attractive am I judging you positively or negatively am I male or female arousal whether that’s 4 hours or whether that’s for a lifetime and that by having this experience in my you know 14-223 in a way it is started a pattern that would make a lot of sense when I got to Tantra is the sense of leading with the heart and letting the heart in form the rest of us rather than leading guess what are Primal nature another thing that I did start in my late twenties and early thirties started to study cross-cultural sacred sexuality so before I studied I was actually studying kind of sacred sexuality that was in that so for me personally although I will sometimes say I’m a I’m a tantra teacher because that’s easy to speak out of my mouth do you know Center teacher I really perceive myself to be a teacher and a coach that died around cross-cultural sacred arrows not just Eastern or Asian and I believe that sacred sexuality is our Birthright that it is interwoven into every single lineage of History whether we’re Jewish weather where you know of some sort of you know Arabic Middle Eastern it whether we’re European weather were African whether we’re Asian that no matter what our culture in which Mayan whatever our culture if we go back far enough we can see the anthropological shards of sacred sexuality in our tradition and I like knowing that I like researching that so that we don’t necessarily have to leave our Our Idiot I don’t have to stay at the stop being awesome beautiful awesome let’s do that but if we have to leave we don’t have to leave Christianity we don’t have to leave Judas and we don’t have to leave this why we don’t have to leave whatever tradition were part of to embrace sacred sexuality and so for me that’s very important one of the other things that I feel is very important for our listeners to know is there such a confusion between in the West End in the United States any kind of first world contemporary culture which I grew up with and feels kind of confused about how to relate to their body how to relate to the planet when we start to study in a western culture we had a tendency to focus on the body and sexuality but that. There really is a spiritual path and the goal is not a great sex life is actually the unconditional and compassionate acceptance of all that is it’s a spiritual path and just as it has a do you know who that the blissed-out recorder is not about having a great sex life this is about being incredibly compassionate human being and important people to know now look at my life compassion make a difference make a difference it make a difference if I could be compassionate about my body would it make a difference if I could be compassion about your body or about our sexuality and are our differences if I could hold this really deep compassion would that make a difference in our sex life it would absolutely so we’re now looking at something very different then you know what kind of positions can we do or what kind of position they’re breathing breathing tactics can we do to have a better sex life for a longer orgasm so the Kamasutra literally means the teachings, love to trace the teachings of the teachings about love and it was really like it was and is a spiritual path so such a nerd versus spiritual path and so I think you’re getting one we talked about Francesca’s what is Francesca’s history is it is very deeply personal experience that started a particular path and this very curious inquiring mind wanted to research cross-culturally and explore cross-cultural and still does and sit when I look at you know what am I teaching about sacred sexuality I look at everything from neurobiology psychology energy work Shamanism and teacher is teaching you their own jambalaya you know their own mixture of these little bits of what might be called classical control and lots of everything else that they know and so if you’re going to a tantra teacher it’s I feel it’s really important to ask them like you’re doing what is your background why did you choose this what do you think Nicole is what are your classes like and some country. Medic on her teacher’s sexual perspective and they have a strong bias toward polyamory and polyamory we intimate intimate ways but if you’re trying to go to class to improve your sex partner going to that Public House might actually disrupt your relationship even more so it’s important to know cuz it’s kind of like weirdest Entre come from in our country and what are might you be walking into and what do you need to ask I was starting to rain in Punta I recognized it as a sex and love addict and there was a way that I was approaching my relationship with men that was about getting my 6 and I didn’t know this because because I need to have lots of sex about two different people I wasn’t you know having sex with strangers and whiskey but what happened I had a boyfriend that broke up with me in the middle of my ARCA falling in love and usually you know as many human beings hear you fall in love in those first few weeks or months you if you stay up all night if you’re completely like you’re everything you can make love morning because that guy is actually not about the other person it’s about our own chemical dump in our body going off because something in that person that is triggered and when the drugs are stopping me it’s some it’s starting to look like you don’t touch me the way you used to do you treat me the way you used to it starts to look like the other person is prop and then after whether it’s after three months or 6 months or 9 months or two years whatever that was my power and then I would immediately fall in love with the next person so I can have that wonderful experience You’re My Favorite Drug high is a combination of love and lust just lust just love but if you put love and lust together you know that’s my heroin and so when he broke up with me in the middle of this Arc I couldn’t I couldn’t sleep I was just shaking this FYI girl this is not grieving this is withdrawals you’re going to waste all there when I recognize that fact I put myself into 12 step program for sex and love addicts anonymous American Airlines and they’re all so connected and juicy with each other videos of letting themselves go into this place of merging and high I’m having to practice Friday it was kind of like learning to be sober while spending time in a bar and it was hard my God that was hard and so I would have to work and work on my energy back but not being merged and it was hard but it created such a strong muscle so that now if I do he let you know if I’m doing a lot of killing four people if I’m doing Sexual Healing around there, I can touch their genitals I could touch their body they could be in a state of arousal and I’m not I’m not I’m not you know I’m not going to fantasize about that I’m available to hold a clear space for their healing that’s not about me and what I found is many many many people who call themselves doctors in bikinis and contracts and Country cuz for whatever reason they haven’t so when they are in those healing Simon’s with another person they ask to get very attached they actually are there on issues over the other person and can actually start to give pressure to the other person to be sexual and I’ve heard that over and over and over and over where he’s starting to give pressure like if you have sex with my badge or if you know you let me put my hand up your whatever you and the woman is not her pacing which is actually for her offense seeking Clarity from women Clarity that they never got from their mother Clarity that they have never gotten from their girlfriend and now they’re hiring and then wanting a very clear message pathway where they’re negotiating clearly about boundaries and boundaries are being held in there for something healing about the polarity and so if a country girl. Kitty says you’re in the first session we’re just going to bring together third session where I don’t you know we may never get to the genitals we won’t get to the genitals until the 4th he can relax Clarity with this woman and then she said to get excited by him and then she throws the boundaries out the door we can just go to this we can skip the three sections and just go to this right now he actually filled one day because she’s just replicated the same wording about the other women were unclear interchangeable so I think you’re starting to get a sense of me and my life to is that I’m really really drawn to where is there, where is there, in the body in the south in our ability to feel like our body our sexuality are our life is safe for us to be in and really I’m drawn to ask how can I support people to come home to their bodies in their lives in a way to three safe for them and very authentic for them and that’s that’s the kind of you know if we use one definition of Contra is the weeds that Hunter has a weaving and another way of saying leaving his illness is that’s the kind of from her that I’m drawn to is how do I support each individual to come into their holness and of course of course yeah that’s in my journey to you know how do I come into my home this how do I embrace all that I am including my desires in my Primal and my reactive the including my compassion in my Divinity how do I bring all of it in a way that is loving for me but is not harmful for others because this is also an issue that comes up in a sex-positive community a lot is your freedom freedom we’ve been so shamed by the culture region so limited by the culture I personally believe it that’s an immature attitude and that the child is struggling for three of the teenagers struggling for its freedom but when were an adult we understand we have responsibilities and that my freedom has to be limited by where my actions affect others so I may want to I want to dance and I’m a wanted flitter my music really loudly and can I have colored lights and it’s not fun for them so I need to either turn down my music but I need my freedom is limited by the fact that desire is going to create a negative impact on another human being it is not okay it is not mature adult to say I need this because it’s kind of my freedom we get to stay around the house with my you know music is so I would like to do that but as a mature adult that I need to collaborate with you how is it that work will you be out of the house like to just think when I’m single maybe they’re looking for a dump for relationship and I’m just looking for something really fun so my freedom when I balance my freedom with responsibility my freedom and my desire for Freedom my desires will still guide me but my maturity will allow those desires to be expressed gracefully and responsibly you’re getting a little bit of my soapbox here is that Peter Peter Pan not allowing themselves to mature and do I want to love my body I want to look like I prove that every single desired vanity I have to approve it I want to create a pro but there’s a difference between loving myself so whatever comes up in my little mind and taking action on what I’m thinking I’m going to give you different examples I had a question just really hard wanted to work with and I was 20 or 21 at the time and I didn’t know about boundaries I didn’t know how to really express myself and I felt very powerless in that situation and I would go home and I didn’t know what to do with all that anger really that I had towards her and I came up with a really great idea that I was going to allow myself to fantasize about killing her did I ever harm her no no I never I never did anything for me to kind of this place some of my anger and not take it out on her I sign up for the confusion of a sex positive culture between what I would call a personal fantasy something that I’m going to keep in my mind in my mind and display some energy by having it. Maybe would be really lovely maybe I have a fantasy And my partner’s at the time and I ended up going to a very warm ocean and it was the perfect fantasy to bring into reality this is what I have in some but I’m not going to mention I don’t want them to be brought into another example is I have a fantasy about rafting me at sunset in a beautiful blue silk down get this like sailing into the bay at Sunset and the wind is blowing in his hair and come to the beach and no wake me up in his arms and take me on the road back to the back to the ship in my fantasy somehow he’s able I’m walking along the beach with my dress never gets wet he gets to the beach he puts me in the rowboat we go back to the ship where are the ship and I never get seasick and it in real life I actually get seasick very easily I never even though he’s being great he does not get ripped and it’s now folded neatly next to us even though my back is on the wooden plank of the. I do not get splinters in my fantasy it all works beautifully but I’m smart enough to know that if I try to do that in reality my dress would get ruined and I be kissed I get splinters and that would not make me happy and I probably get seasick the wisdom of of the Amazon and and Beyond and so is that something that you have I just thought I remember reading somewhere you know or talk to you at some point about how this is so like you could be hired by the more formal above ground and sectors of social work or Community work with where you can be brought in to bring some of the stuff that would normally be or I guess it’s just it’s a very interesting Cutting Edge of an intersection and I if I’m not mistaken that’s that you you are like sort of partially in that world 2 of of social work or is that something I understand correctly or social worker social worker y’all are layout string this conversation back and see where where I where I am placed social work as well as all the modalities of counseling and healing you know like they are all part and parcel to supporting and upholding status quo capitalist system so I’m going to like you know like you know also having been in the punk scene also had a big impact on my my party now thought you know in terms of healing these wounds we have to look at that you know we can’t we can’t say like that are healing is going to be independent of a world that is reeling and suffering from the continuation of this system as it is and so that’s where I for me like bringing capitalism into the equation is is something that’s real tricky it’s something that I feel needs to be kind of understood that you know we we can’t just rely on having sting services that we can pay for because that creates a gap you know where some people are going to have accessible abilities to to the healing and others won’t and that’s that’s not healthy for anyone and and also that it doesn’t address the root cause of why we need social workers to begin with and why we need counseling and all of that so I really like the notion of cultural healing that’s where more where I would be comfortable in any way kind of looking at myself as any kind of healer I don’t think we we can really heal individuals that’s really something that you know a person will need to and it’s not like they can be facilitated to do their own healing work but nobody can fix us we have to fix ourselves that’s that’s more I think a more powerful Paradigm to be apart of but you know I I I have worked in the realm I focused therapy and you know I have spent quite a bit of time around the spirit plant medicines and seeing how the plant medicines have assisted and I do I do continue continuously work to increase my knowledge and wisdom around working with us plants and and that also brings us back into that hole realm of discussion around you know ancestors and working with them or perhaps that’s something we haven’t really touched upon but maybe she said it’s just that in any form of healing that we do I guess for me the important thing that I really try to bring into whatever I do connecting back with her ancestors and healing the trauma of how we were disconnected from those ancestors and how that plays out in any kind of sexual wounds or emotional wounds that we carry and so that’s something that I I I feel like the role of initiation and ritual can can really do and that’s that’s been its Province ever since people began doing patrols I think it’s to build upon the legacy of their ancestors and to draw and their their help and support cool said that yeah thank you for helping me understand the other parameters a little better and and 100% there with you I have I have been because I live in the United States where there’s different laws around no prostitution in in how that affects the healing with sexual touch and pleasure as medicine and stuff like that is a lot more yes I understand in in Canada there’s there’s a lot more interesting legal space in order to do Hands-On Sexual Healing work relative to the US where it’s completely off limits in so I because of that adapting to that reality and also is a permaculture designer myself I have to think very deeply about how to navigate this issue of for-profit healing work that kind of in most sectors is about like you said I’ll put in my own words it’s like they want to know if if the if you’re at a time of time robot that supposed to be producing a set amount to be a productive member of the of the GDP then then if you’re not functioning properly than the the goal of the mainstream social work or psychotherapeutic or psychiatric Fields they’re trying to get you back into the rat race as soon as possible and they’ll do that with drugs with talk therapy or whatever that is about avoiding through tissue which is the disconnection from urethane from a healthy holistic wild habitat you know a night as a primitivist I see that you know the solution to your Neurosis is to retry belies and Get Growing your own food again in and rebuild that fabric so you know there with you on that tension about right livelihood in and taking money for healing and what is he doing so I really like what you said and that just is going to it’s going to help me a lot looking at healing the cultural level and healing the if I’m understanding right and I’ll put a couple my own words on it but I feel like we’re trying to build the scaffolding or were trying to design the context for people to take the responsibility of a personal healing and gone to that journey and so if you if what would you say are some practical skills are tools from all of your things that you would teaching and training and a things that you discovered in your own journey to where you’re in power tools for empowerment that you suggest or are resources that you suggest people Explorer to if they’re called to do the cultural healing work weather for profit or non-profit. Some dance between the two or it and then what what are some recommendations for people who are on their own path and aren’t necessarily called to do the the cultural healing yeah I mean it’s it’s a pretty vast subject that one but I think that a few points that I could think about and talk about our that I’m going to this idea of bringing you back in the station rights and recognizing that in the absence of them what do we have you know we are we are sadly in there without initiated Elders so many of us and if there are any of Elders that hold that ability to to guide those those ones are those are worth their weight in gold you know there really is people that we should try to lift up and and give them their recognition and see you know and then in the absence of that it’s like we kind of by default Our Generations people that will have to hopefully fulfill that and reach a place where we can actually help upcoming generations to go in a way that they don’t have to completely go it alone and and figure it out on them on their own the way that so many of us have had to and so there is a movement around Rites of Passage I sit on the board if you passageways which is a network that focus is squarely on you no Rites of Passage for you coming of age from all different walks and and and modalities you know some of them are our Boys to Men oriented some of them are girls to women some of them are starting to incorporate non gender binary kind of approaches as well which is good and and this whole focus on bringing back the ancestors into looking at Rites of Passage is is starting to happen and something that I focused on and so that’s that’s a resource you know people can go to youth passageways. Oregon and look at what programs are out there and they can also think about how they can add to that list and bring in things that are needed around especially around sexuality and relationship which is often I noticed kind of a big gap in a lot of programs out there you know because they’re confined confined or constrained by the conservative values where they take place and you know what school system is you know this is one of those places lagging for that kind of thing so it’s a role that I think that many people who understand the need can step into and cultivate as career paths you know and some people are pig figuring out how they can weave their credentials says on Sexual Health Educators or sexual therapist or sexual trauma or no trauma-based therapists you know into this realm of initiation and that’s that needs to happen on a on an increased level the other I see a lot of because of what I was saying around looks really don’t how many Avenues to learn other than through you know what the books in the workshops and offerings around sexuality thoughts unfortunately are not rooted in in people’s only need two lineages generally speaking you know so the whole Tantra movement is pretty much so you know a cultural appropriator of New Age fight version of those Traditions that would have been squashed by Christianity especially and so I think there’s work to be done there and as much as possible Retreat retrieving reconstructing are reconnecting with our own ancestral Traditions which I’m sure you know had their own knowledge wisdom around how to how to raise healthy harmonious individuals with healthy sexualities from from the vantage point of how what little I do know has been has been done in indigenous cultures and without wanting to appropriate for them from them I’ll just give way of examples out of that you know in and certain cultures that are studied like the Mayan culture and I think to some degree on certain places within Creek culture there’s examples of how as societies you know that the children are raised from an early age 2 reach a point where they understand how to how to harmonize with the other sex and how to to look after each other and that’s just a very basic principle that I feel like you know that’s that’s worth kind of learning how to integrate into our family structures if we have children that were raising just to keep in mind that you know there is a need for them to learn skills around things like consent and around being responsible with with one’s sexual energies and and I needs to start before they reach that age of adolescence where they’re just harder to connect with if you haven’t built up that Foundation so that’s something that I think about will do you so if I if if we check out that the organization that you mention is it would that be good place to find and something like a more enlightened or more conscious like sexual education curriculum or guidebook do you know if people were working on something like that so if I know if you know parents who were going through the puberty of their child that they have something that’s not just this cold clinical Western and even though that sort of evolving a little bit you know with things like a sack didn’t and whatnot I see a lot but the The ancestral wisdom and you know the ceremonial Rites of Passage you know how does it how does the Modern Family say okay well you’re about to start feeling you know hormonal Energy’s how do we give you know create even if it’s just within their family or their Community yoga or whatever is something more than what’s being offered in the normal sex ed or what they’re listening in gangster rap music and watching on sitcoms obviously you know it’s enough for lack of lot of alternative options it’s one one place to look and we’re always looking for others so whenever we discover something then we will see to auditory resources and we are trying to vet those resources and those organizations to make sure that they really are you know at least there’s some some level of you know safe recommendation that we can give for those those organizations we’re not we’re not in the position to really kind of completely you know set standards but we are trying to we have a code of what we call it a cross-cultural protocol so we do look at that aspect that you have for what we’re talking about that’s you know if that’s another layer that we will hopefully get to eventually and I do know that there are people within our Network who are really strongly focused on this particularly around girls to women kind of education and and Rites of Passage and some of the Boys to Men once but I think it’s also something we need to to enhance as well oh that’s great yeah that’s that’s that’s what I wanted to hear so that I can just refer people to this ongoing and so and then the LSI is kind of its there’s a Facebook I’ve been interacting with the the Facebook group for a while so is that something you recommend people plug-in I mean that’s the goal of that is to feature blogs and generate discussions from those blogs and also to establish a resource of services as well as information and so that’s you know running on in a very limited volunteer capacity and so you know it’s something that I hope will eventually become a very powerful resource but already it’s you know it’s been feedback that I’ve received that you know even just the the group that we have on Facebook somebody posted recently. You know it’s really help them in their in their path which is nice to hear and I’ve heard that a few times and I try to curate that group in such a way where it’s like you know it’s trying to generate discussion and it’s it’s trying to be a safe space where where people can get into some of those I’m intimate revealing is of what what’s going on in their lives one of the things that kind of came out of love sex intelligence local as a connection with Tamara and the love school that they have which is a very congruence philosophy to love sex intelligence and they’re their work to try to create or with to create safe spaces for people to to share stories of what’s going on in their intimate lover sexual lives and and B witnessed in a way that is non-judgemental where they’re not being flooded with advice but more just being witnessed which is kind of connected to that whole framework for Rites of Passage itm witnessing each other and so it’s it’s trying to also look at how you know communities can succeed in their in their goals which might include you know like being more sustainable or being an alternative to the systems around us and also being a part of a more peaceful kind of culture through filling this hole that is often where things go wrong where people are are are not feeling safe to talk about these these human experiences around wounding around are our hearts and our sexuality so I’ve been part of a Practice Group here that has been circulating also to other parts of BC and I think it’s a really it’s a really powerful movement to be a part of yeah we’re getting close to an hour or so I have to take a few more minutes and I’m get a couple thoughts and feelings some responsible for 1 something that his is coming up for me that I think it’s really empowering is this like idea that wouldn’t it be nice if some of us started to think of ourselves as aspiring Elders I’ve never thought of it that way until this conversation and there’s a little spark of joy and me that that says you know puts in context the the punk rock lifestyle that I had of live fast Die Young and just you know if it’s not throwing yourself into the meat grinder of insurrectionary activism you know with this sort of Death Wish you know this martyr complex or whatever it’s like those are really unsustainable archetypes to follow and they leave a lot of people when they get to my age in about 35 like in a sort of existential crisis that will the revolution didn’t happen and I didn’t get killed I didn’t die in the gutter you know I mean what am I going to do now and it’s like well maybe it’s time to become an aspiring Elder and you know clean up your act and and then start to think about how you’re going to make it easier cuz I there’s a lot of things that I had to go through that I would seriously love to have no one else ever have to go through and if you know if we can live in that. you know that is what you’re supposed to think that I think of you say you know you can you can learn from the wisdom of Elders who have gone through and made the mistakes that you’re probably going to go through or you can just be hard-headed and learn all your lessons the hard way but I mean we’ve had to learn a lot of hard lessons in the absence of the eldership but I think if we take on that there’s a yeah me too. It seems obvious but really the way you put it his medicine for me to think you know it’s a dignified path to be an aspiring Elder and then it makes you not be so how do I can help you defeat that that that grinding pressure that oh my I’m going to lose my looks and I’m going to lose my energy and I’m going to be in the state of deprecation towards death and that’s very much the greatest fear of the western manicured Uno photoshopped airbrushed identity like you’re not really giving any hope that aging will be of any benefit in here just marginalized further and further so I thank you for that serve very much still give that time sacred eldership dignity not a light title to hold I think the true Elder wouldn’t really feel comfortable in it cuz it’s defining attributes of an elder that is really one that can help that role be the best it can be is one that is is really accountable is really present isn’t so on the move that if you can’t you know be relied upon to be there for the people that it serves now needs to ideally be in the in the fellowship of other Elders to kind of keep it in in in check in a way like we have to watch for the Cole group kind of phenomenon where people you know place a lot of weight on that person and in a way that can privilege them in certain ways and also lead to potential like power distortions and things like that you know it’s it’s only human that people will make mistakes and so having that kind of accountability of other people and also that time yeah you have people heart or a different there’s always like in every phase of life with the lifecycle there’s there’s like the maturing phases and so there’s like you know there’s a baby elder there’s enough adult Elder and then Senior Elder and so it’s just we have to learn at each stage of Life how to become the mature version of what that stage is and says just something to think about as well and it’s good to to get your feet wet early on in life so that you know we can have deep roots and and the and those are the kinds of people to like in the Tamara situation out of the black community they have a circle of Elders who are basically people who have grown with a community enough that they know the people in their community and then they serve a role as potential kind of like the Matchmaker but you know in a way where people can approach them in and ask them like you know I’m interested in this person and they can help you assess whether this is the right time or what is a good or bad idea and you know they can kind of that. Whole courtship in a way that you know really I think I wish there were more of those people around here don’t you let me relax you know learn the hard way what does that we’re just not compatible certain people in The Matrix the I mean yeah I’m not I’m not a political scientist of the Matrix but I will say that what got me peaked on the ecstatic trance dance group ritual ceremony festival thing was it really when I saw I think it was maybe the second movie or maybe it was the second or the third but there was a scene where they’re just getting down to like Juno Reactor I think was a soundtrack of a butt there is something beautiful about seeing the different the warrior culture Guided by elders and of course there’s different the archetypes playing out in Conflict split that to me was took it further than then the Star Trek Federation is a futuristic Elder guided Council guided kind of reality so that was kind of fun but yeah so that’s what came to mind when you’re at we’re talking about that be so cool if you’re early sexual oracle’s who you go to you know if we’re going to give you insights and maybe even have name your child for you or something cool like that you know be so cool but right on then will I worry about at the hours so do you have any closing touch you want to share or any other resources or should we just I’ll post the the links that you mention and I’ll definitely encourage people to stay informed and keep an eye out for your anything coming up you have any appearances or anything exciting like that coming up you want to mention I think yeah I think I covered a lot of it and I just wanted to maybe plant a seed while I have the airwaves here about something that I’d I’d eventually like to work on presenting which is around insert Intercultural relationships and also decolonizing our relationships as well and just thinking about how how we can heal some of these ancestral traumas and use that has as as a means to strengthen our relationships and also our society right on I’ll be looking forward to everything that you’re you’re expressing in the world and I hopefully yeah maybe sometime in the future we can talk about skill sets for Beyond Christian monogamy that would be a great topic so yeah how would you feel about that maybe we can sometime in the next few months follow up with something like that. Maybe by the by the time I’ll have more of a personal lived experience to a base conversation around that I think you know in terms of people who are already I don’t know how many listeners here are on a Christian spiritual path without that many but if the energy and gnosticism and sacred marriage not going to the alchemical top in the in the Gnostic tradition but I I wouldn’t make any claims to be an expert in that area but it’s definitely something to look at cool alright then we will be in touch and will follow up sometime in the future and thank you so much so be I really enjoyed it and I know it’s taking us a while to get this to get this done but I think it was perfect and I couldn’t ask for anything more so you have a wonderful day. Take care and keep for listening to the touch upon podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is to see me and if you want a podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been at Contra Punk. Com Thomas Day