in this episode an unfolding process of synchronicity results in my prayers being answered to find a scholar of cultural sexology to be on the show. Dr. Zelaika Hepworth Clarke breaks it all the way down, flips the script, and helps us start to know how to know what we don’t know using a radical approach to cultural narratives of sexuality she calls “multi-epistemic literacy”. Sex geeks, sacred sexuality practitioners, sapiosexuals, and sexual revolutionaries will be having multiple eargasms during this episode!
Please support Dr. Zelaika’s noble efforts and visit her website here:
AI Generated Transcription:
(Want to help with corrections? Please contact me to learn about rewards for your efforts!)
Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin hello dear beloved’s welcome to Township Punk podcast episode number 77 I have a very synchronistic situation here which is that I sort of setting intention in one of the recent episodes to kind of reach out to researchers in social sciences particularly in the throat and throw type fields to get a sense of more of a pre-colonial pre-industrial maybe even X pre-agricultural and I sort of Baseline for what how long love making last the frequency of it and if there’s any sort of General data I mean we have data about the dental data from archaeology we had we know a lot about with what types if any violence were happening organized violence or so much data that has been generalized and it’s been really enlightening for people who want to have Hope and Faith in humanity in so I have this I’ve had this I guess kind of Armature hypothesis that a lot of what time should a practicing in training is is is grasping for is a Renaissance of a more Primal modality of lovemaking that was far more ritualised initiated into supported and endorsed in facilitated by community and really woven into spiritual and ecological psychology and I am so excited to be speaking with doctors at Lake that help with Clark now because she’s going to tell us all about her Research into sexual pissed emology and and cultural sexology which I’m just very excited to hear about and I have some some very interesting questions that I’ll get to you after we hear all about your background and you’re at your Life Path and then your your use of these terms to describe what you do and what you study and then insights you have to share and we can go from there and thank you for having me I am doctor zuleyka Hepworth Clark also known as the jamerican sex ossifer so I really am interested in studying the philosophy of sexuality and in particular I’m really interested in no African philosophy and epistemology so you piss mileage he’s kind of like the way we understand and know that the knowledge and I consider myself a sexually pissed them ologist so I studied the way sexual knowledge is transmitted understood and interpreted in different societies as well as I am a cultural sexologist so I like to study the way cultural influences sexuality in the way we understand love desire and relationships as well as a sex therapist and counselor like your sexuality education and I have a lot of academic background training and in human sexuality I my bachelor’s and sexuality culture on depression and have my Master’s in education of human sexuality and social work and then I got my PhD in human sexuality from Widener University so I’m really excited that there are we’re beginning to have this really important conversation and looking at alternative narratives in terms of how we understand sexuality and sex and love and pleasure that can move Beyond how certain populations May view it in other words there are multiple ways that we can understand sexuality and sex and I think that when we are exposed to more ways of knowing we can we can better decide what is truthful to us and what makes sense for us but to limit our self with only one way of knowing Are No Mono epistemic ways of understanding that is very much tied to patriarchal Christian capitalistic Colonial mentality that we will have alternative approaches to our issues that may come up or or expanding the way we can experience and understand pleasure as well so that’s a little bit about me yeah I was really interested in my researches I was trying to understand what How pre-colonial African societies conceptualize gender and sexuality and I came across ocean ality that is I guess it’s simplified definition is African eroticism that affirms the normality of of sexual pleasure and it’s stems from Ocean sexuality and ocean is a orisha or force of nature associated with fresh water and she has worshippers around the world that have roots in Yoruba of modern-day Nigeria and also spread throughout the new world so and then condom blay in Brazil what’s in Santeria it’s in 00 different religions after african-based a spiritual systems and so yeah I think there’s so much that I learned through ocean ality and and kind of learning about an alternative spiritual systems that was able to incorporate sensuality and spirituality and sexuality and and while respecting nature it really allowed me to rethink and questioned a lot of the things that I’ve kind of Taken these constructs that we take for granted like like sexual orientation or even what it means to have sex and because I was really interested in freeing my mind off of you know for emancipating myself from limited view points that are not conducive to collaboration and you know me support my internal oppression from various spices that are found in societies and so I I my thesis was a 10 or my question was 10 ocean ality emancipate me from I know White’s is heteronormative patriarchal mentalities that may limit my understanding of of an unlocking the potential that I have and so I am super excited to begin the conversation with you and discuss some some some cool things that that are missing from normative discourse you know what is it brings me back to a it was a course I took when I was studying anthro at University of Oregon and there was it was called comparative tribalism and it was very interesting and I was coming that was the first time I encountered the idea of tribalism as a as a negative and I was very sparkly starry-eyed and go primitive S10 was so stoked on all of the feminist anthropology I could find that was really smashing and subverting the dominant Paradigm of anthropology and so the it when I went to that class and it was it was a negative view of tribalism like oh it it’s the idea that people are identified in these very combative for antagonistic groups and it was like the source of conflict and there’s one thing that he the really stuck with me when he had this really this tongue twister academic kind of postmodern Mystic phrase that was he caught he said denaturalization true historic ization and you’re probably the only person that I’ve talked to who would who would like instantly see the utility of that because of your multi pistol at epistemic lens and approach to things and so I’m going to pack in a little bit and then and then ask you some questions be kind of based on where we where we are in alignment about this idea so when we this is my sort of paraphrasing of how what he died and it was just like the gem of the course I really felt like is he saying everything you think you know about a culture’s way of presenting a religion or their way of presenting their differences of the monks neighboring peoples or their relationship to their language all of these things are sort of they become crystallized or naturalized in in a snapshot of history but if you zoom out and you whether you’re a researcher or a member of of of a population if you zoom out and you look at the actual a Cultural Center ticket fee if you will as their cultural layers of transformation over time you’ll find that what we take for granted is usually bullshit in it in the more Colonial Things become the more bullshit you can expect to to find and and it did bewilderment and confusion and just oldies terms even and identity names like on Tire regions named by oppressors that shapes the destiny of the people who were before that of this multi epistemic assemblage of kosher and before I go any further geeking out on on how how I feel about that term it just said I want to say you know this is the life think part of the life mission of a lot of people in the sacred sexuality and holistic sexual health education and you know the practitioners and instructors it’s it’s it’s it’s a new sexual narrative that is all-encompassing and really honoring what was lost and really understanding that there’s been a systematic persecution of all other sexual narratives but the but the one that I think you and I are pretty you know we don’t have to name it but it’s the dominant Paradigm of sexuality which is problematic in a lot of ways so would you be so kind as to give some of your research about how we can we can feel much better about our our pre-colonial sexual cultural ways and where we can look for inspiration to kind of reweave a better fabric of sexuality and spirituality in ecology and I’ll get stuff that you know becoming a sex pervert so the so-called I what I learned is that the more I know the more I realize how much I don’t know and that there are there is so much history that has been silenced because history has been written by the so-called winners and it’s very androcentric or just kind of you know the the male perspective you know all this is what war happened and you don’t you don’t there’s certain really important pieces that have been missing and some really interested really what what that looked like and think about so far so I think about Sankofa which is a a communicator at the symbol it’s a philosophy it’s a spirituality found in of the akan of Ghana and its I apply its means kind of the importance of looking into our history to learn from and to kind of be able to move forward in a in a positive way I think one of the sayings is it’s not taboo to remember that which has been forgotten and I am so I applied this term to sexualities and I call this is like this is one of my theory so I’mma sexual theoretician as well and so I can get this Sankofa sexualities to two kind of stem a field of study that looks into you know prehistoric are pre-colonial ways of viewing sexualities and genders and allow men and sex and relationships and what that can teach us today and how we understand what we know and how we know it now and also a new way to shape the future and so am example of Sankofa sexualities would be ocean alley which is a concept that I discuss are found in African sexualities a reader by Sylvia tamale and there’s a chapter on sex positivity and it talks about it explores kind of what eroticism and sexuality and sensuality look like without having to depend on you know patriarchal religions and capitalistic ideology to guide our understanding of that and so we have very different ways of understanding sexuality and pleasure and fulfillment and different narrative so I want to give an example and I hope it’s not too off topic but want to please go to want to talk about one of the Core Concepts in ocean ality that is called the devouring vagina in the west we have a narrative of sex that’s like you know the penis is going to conquer the vagina kind of thing going on this narrative where you know even when you look at the The Originals of the word vagina it’s like sword holder or sheath which has violent connotations and you even look at the euphemisms in the colloquialisms in in our language it’s like you know hit it and beat it and smash it and you know all these kind of violent confrontation. Anyway ocean alley in this kind of perhaps pre-colonial understanding of sex talks about the Divine vagina which is really bass up the aesthetic of Lima talking head oral sex kind of help anyways so when the instead of the aesthetic that the penis disappears during sex and it’s in golfed and surrounded and there’s eight the agency is assigned to the vagina and that is the you know the owner is going to decide whether or not it will allow it will be it will engulf the penis and envelope or swallow or made to disappear so we talked about like pulling out a scene as an act of resistance and I just bought that narrative was really interesting because it was just definitely a different kind way of understanding sex that did that was not phallocentric it didn’t it wasn’t all about the penis and in a way and it kind of talked about how you know the the vagina and the vulva are very powerful and and so I was very fascinated with with this narrative and looking at kind of different perceptions of sex and in my research I was talking to some priests about kind of condom blay about this concept and they said yeah I mean sex doesn’t have to be phallocentric or or or and then I told them about this Sino devouring vagina and me or like you know it doesn’t have to be gynocentric either they didn’t say those words but I’ve been getting a lot of pushback talkin about it being called you know it’s sex it sounds like are they reverse sexism here and people being very worried about you know how men are going to take this narrative but I think that I think that it’s an important concept that there are different narratives available and also looking at Opening Our our way of having sex the one of the priests said you know it doesn’t have to sex doesn’t even have to revolve around genitals it can you know it can be and then the one said you make sex with the wind it will be truly powerful and I first I was like how its way to think outside the box here I was thinking about you know sex something to revolve around to humans I thought you know my definition was pretty open but man and then I thought about ecosexuals and those who are able to make love with nature and you know and are different aspects of Nature and really finding fulfillment through their senses and different parts of you know erotic nature even through sounds and music can be very arousing and and pleasurable and fulfilling and can change your mood and decrease your stress and all these all a lot of similarities or benefits that people have sex to do there’s pleasure and fulfillment that can happen you know your your ears can be a sex organ there’s this new trend you know hashtag eargasm in those who are able to experience pleasure through Sounder in the ER and I’m looking at different parts of the body and how they can experience pleasure and it not having to revolve around certain genitalia I think that’s a very obvious way that we can receive pleasure and connect with people in a very deep and sexual way but I think you know opening it up to experiencing different forms of energy and the way that the way our body can receive the energy and and trusting our body to interpret pleasure in different ways is there’s just so much available to us when we begin to kind of open our mind and how we can experience connection and eroticism in pleasure without having to feel shame or I know no Stigma around the pleasure with that we feel I have to caution that I’m not talkin about you know I’m consensual acts that I’m not talkin about pleasure in others there specific cases that could distort my words but I am talking about matin reimagining kind of what our sexuality and who we are sexual beings can look like when we affirm pleasure in our body so yeah. That’s a little bit of kind of reimagining and so I go in my research I go into I was using mindfulness as a way of kind of undoing negative effects of colonialism and just kind of being really present and I’m so is doing different body scanning and tuning into what I smell and what I hear and what I taste I was thinking about sexuality and sensuality or sense Raleigh being a part of sexuality and that these that the pleasure that I received from tasting delicious foods that are so good that it makes my water makes my mouth water and I like the sound that I make on taste so good you know it’s it’s a very sensual experience that I can have with with eating certain foods and tasting certain things that aren’t that bring pleasure to to myself and I thought about you not pathologize anything they think that there’s parafilias or those that have no abnormal desires for certain non-human things and it ends up people may feel shame when they experience pleasure in in different ways but only open ourselves up to all the pleasures of of life and and different kind of aspects of Being Human and living on the planet with many different things to experience I think it can really open us up to exploring what Joys and Pleasures that we can receive so yeah I mean that’s kind of like going to using language to describe my experiences of connecting with nature or with you know my my experiencing Pleasures do my senses and kind of putting academic language Johnny two kind of you know substantiate what some of these experiences are that do not Revolt that that we can experience pleasure that’s not revolving around a penis or a vagina is so much to it write thank you for sharing that yeah I totally agree and I have this this kind of thesis about 50 shades of green and how I don’t know if you actually well this is probably a good time to mention this above all things you’re aware of the I’m not going to try it I’m not going to butcher the the pronunciation with the click sound but there comes and the Kalahari one of the quintessential will one of the last true foraging Societies in transition to you know modern modernization all that but you’re you probably encountered quite a bit of literature on them I suppose over the years yeah means my my studies and you know looking at 6 realities and and you know the anthropology of gender and sexuality courses that I’ve taken there’s so many there’s so many different you know cultural groups that have a supportive system that thinks of sex in a more natural way when I mean by that is it being a use is a way to create Harmony in different societies and thinking about you know these sexuality schools that existed in pre-colonial African societies that kind of look at pleasure and different techniques that could be used to create a essential environment all the above but I don’t know that particular one do you want to talk a little bit about it to me just because I got really fascinated with the actual distinction between tribal societies and band level societies most people lump everything that’s not what’s a well it’s kind of an orientalist turn right to say that it’s Tribal because it really it’s it doesn’t really accurately like the new wageview of tribalism is isn’t really based on that political designation of band level you know what is it lineage chiefdom you know tribal agricultural state I’m probably missing a few in between there but there’s kind of dislike hierarchy pyramid in anthropology that starts with the egalitarian band level societies of 25 to 50 people foraging nomatic maybe doing gardening and fishing and some forms of will probably a lot of actual unseen forms of horticulture over larger cycles of time that don’t look like Gardens with their kind of gardening the whole reality really but anyway that’s a side note but the kind of sin have always fascinated me and one of the things that I discovered recently in my shamanic studies is that they have their own perhaps the oldest technology of accessing what in Hindu Tantra is called the Kundalini activation experience so they have a group ecstatic trance dance that lathers them up and like spiritually Cooks them to the point where physical mental emotional illnesses are like purged and and in and expelled by the very visceral medical immeasurable phenomenon physiological and phenomenological phenomenon of this Rising heat from the base of the spine and they have a different narrative about it I believe they they believe it it’s it’s it’s a downward inner systems but I’m not as much of an expert as I probably will become overtime but now this is kind of a fresh thing that I’ve discovered not too long ago and talked about the thinking out of the box and understanding that the power to be in the second the Ecstasy is healing right so if we achieve that through dance we see that through psychedelic Shamanism through sacred sexuality then we achieve that orgasmic Zone Bliss state of fuel to ssf Healing potential magical potential and that’s something that we’ve been absolutely like it is been you know the valve to that power has been systematically shut off by the monotheistic religions and so we’re definitely on the same page about wanting to ReDiscover and I feel like I want to be a publicist for these things like I want to be a PR firm it says did you know press releases yeah there’s a tribe called I believe they’re called the Arca and they don’t even know what masturbation is because they have sex so much that they would never think of wasting a drop of potential you know baby better because they’re actually in a human be called a logical sense that the explanation you know is that the Western explanation is that I don’t and I don’t know what narrative stay I can’t quote you the translator narratives but there were there were studies of them asking him why don’t we know do you know masturbation is apparently according to study which is probably somewhat obviously it’s Sensational to say that they had no idea what masturbation was but the the the more the more down-to-earth truth which is verifiable is that ostensibly verifiable is that they they have a unique sort of Niche where there is a high infant mortality rate so they have a higher pressure to be more productive more reproductive because of their human ecology in that makes them this I don’t know somewhat anomalous case of being kosher that that is they call it a night work so yeah so that to me that stood out is one example that there comes in and then I believe they’re called AQHA I’m becoming a nerd scholar of these really invigorating and just and healing examples of of how beautiful the cultures that were intrinsically sacred in their sexuality how how beautiful is it to discover that you so you are given some some beautiful examples yeah you were about just please enlighten us cuz I think this is such potent medicine to have hope securing About You Beautiful story so far how many different cultures and different ways of knowing about how to you know I just I think of you know and I can’t remember the exact ethnicity where it’s it’s not a shame you know parents are proud of their daughters to have multiple boyfriends and that at least it’s power how do you know that the girls are encouraged to seek sexual pleasure and the boys are kind of not initiated but trained by older women to to please the women to please their future partners and it seemed as just kind of this I just had seen in a different way obviously went when they have these narratives where you know younger you know all teenagers are encouraged to have sexual activity then no no of cultures that their average time to have sex at night is 8 times per night every day you know I think about how that must be a different you know mentality going into it when that when the frequency is so much and they’re just even how we understand you know human development and I am fascinated by societies that were unaware of the importance of sperm and reproduction and thinking about enough a paternity yeah just yeah yeah that where you know parenting is act on the you know it takes a village to raise a child kind of mentality and develop a fetus to According to some lucky different different cultures I just Mmm fortunately I do think that these kind of narratives are going to be harder to find and they are being oppressed and I think it’s really important for these kind of ancestral memories to be for us to be reminded of and for us to learn different ways of viewing what what sex is and how how we can experience it and you know what it is what it is in means for us mere humans are meaning making machines and so very interesting kind of I think oh we’re so objective are you know this is the truth but there are many narratives available and I think the more narratives that I’m exposed to the more I’m able to see the Beauty and the diversity and even my ability to shift my narratives away from victim or oppressive narratives to more of narrative associated with Liberation and empowerment and joy you know and so there’s there’s yeah I mean oh my goodness I think one of the young just bring it back to eat Pista mology I was thinking about epistemic violence or kind of the way that knowledge is been as of all knowledge production the way we understand facts are very much controlled by those that are in power and it marginalize in a in a presses other ways that we can know and other indigenous ways of coming to understand having a deeper understanding and so really just listening to different perspectives can really be healing and transformative and so I think that Tantra and ocean ality and kind of learning about you know are pre prehistoric which is problematic to even say prehistoric prehistory in a western wanted to date their understanding of history or her story her her story and our story and their story there’s so many stories that are missing words that are coming up that speaks to alternate perspectives but I’m getting on the herstory bandwagon and it kind of remembering what did the narratives have been marginalized and Reviving what that can look like and yeah just there’s just so much yeah you are also mentioned that there was a practice of herbs for Yoni and Alia look at sexuality schools in different parts of of of sub-Saharan Africa that that goes that part of their sexuality training is to be able to use nature to enhance eroticism so finding going and learning the herbs and even different tree bark or elements that are found in nature to either tighten or moisten the vagina or use ingredients in foods to cook Afrodisiac you certain scents in kind of create that romantic kind of vibe and set the tone for the intentions of lovemaking and I’m thinking about different techniques I know that even dancing and certain gyrations and you’re moving her body and a way to to kind of train or be aware of different erogenous zones the way we move the way we look the way we dance looking at how just yeah thank you thinking about different kind of things that can be done to enhance our sexual encounters was definitely something that was in incorporated in to traditional Creek elem of learning about sexuality but that is definitely not in our repertoire right now in terms of you know what we learn we have to learn about how sex is dangerous and how you can get STIs and how it can lead to pregnancy which you know it’s very important to have that awareness but it’s going off of the feeder baits rather than a pleasure centered kind of focus and drums of what what what can be experienced and three I mean they talk about sexual pharmacology that are found in herbal stimulate stimulants and mood enhancing effects and things that can sustain erection or you know encourage training to make love making noises or you know even the the importance of breathing in the way we breathe be very important in and how we are connecting with with our bodies and with the air and with our community as well so yeah well he is something that is so interesting to hear these words I think you so much that I really feel like you were sent from someone helping a Divine answer to my prayers to have this conversation because it’s really it’s really disturbing I had to feel like an outsider wanting to celebrate sexuality and return it to the rightful place in nature and sacred ceremonial rituals with proper guidance and facilitation in the the the things you want two things that comes to mind is is is it’s just that when people kind of wake up from this dark sexual Dark Ages and the sexual Enlightenment and Renaissance continues to to expand and Blossom I think it will be very I hope the people will think about it or maybe look back and say while we were so we were so far from our most complex most intricate most obviously pleasurable but just the the technology of the human sexual physiology and its connection and wiring to all these Divine potential forms of ecstasy that you can write you know you can sing songs write poetry make aren’t you you what your culture will be occupied busy for four generations trying to grope at the mystery of what lies beyond our normal sense is when we achieve that through sexual ecstasy and so it’s like we’re we’re obsessed with all this gadgetry and all this technology and we’re really destroying the planet in this this narcissism of gadgets and you know external forms of entertainment and we’re just overlooking the most fun regenerative sustainable hopefully affordable access to this experience that should keep us very so intoxicated on the nectar of the Divine and in in just the Glory of Love Making in the Continuum of orgasm that we would just lose all interest in chopping down trees and stabbing and shooting each other especially for the men you know that if they were given this instructions in training in and then then all of the values in all of all the patriarchal and societies would change so you know I think about the importance of self-knowledge and knowing who we are and outside of the narratives that we that we’ve been trained they looked at you know african-centered ways of understanding self or how to study self on that’s one of my my methods that I created my research as decolonizing Auto ethnography so I studied the well so if not if he is kind of the traditional anthropological way of looking at you know different cultures but it’s kind of speaking for the culture they auto part is the self I am going to be talking about myself as I I’m analyzing the culture and I did that all while decolonizing my mind and really thinking critical about the history of colonialism and slavery in and I’m really focusing on healing and I think that I’m I used that to kind of help me better understand myself and my relation to my culture and other cultures as well but I also have been exposed to this idea no self-knowledge as a means of social justice as a way of knowing who we are really important looking at you know how can we study self we can look we can find Clues and nature in history and then also they say that some of the literature says study God that’s interesting you know what that can look like and different and do spiritual settings and I think about you know the importance of that God should be decolonize because that’s like you know I look at what you’re above spiritual system taught me they have the there their language do Yoruba language is genderless there’s no pronouns and there’s no need in our in their language to differentiate in a female from male in and so God all oduamadi is known to have both feminine and masculine entities and when we were when they were forced to speak English by default God has been assigned the male gender and so we have the force patriarchal ization that occurs in the language just to kind of translate genderless concept into a very sexist kind of language English it is that is very kind of the Privileges the mail it privileges you know binaries and very biological understanding of what sex is in there in the specific time that we’re talking about because course when you start studying biology and the sex of biology we see biologically there’s over five genders on a chromosomal level we have a range of different combinations with x Y chromosomes being found in women and xx chromosomes being found in men and let alone intersex people that have maybe blessed to have both genitalia has or maybe an ovary and at-st or you know who knows there’s so many different combinations but unfortunately you know they’re seen as abnormalities even though they might be 1% of the population and and yeah anyway so I’m going into all this but just you know we have to have to start opening up to other ways of knowing things and and having that just kind of inform how we want to make our own meaning of of what it means to BB sexual and just another part of sexuality and learning about self is exploring where your erogenous zones are knowing knowing for yourself so you can help guide your partner and also explain what it with your partner as well and and this can bring up trauma for people because our body has memories can hold memories and being really respect in terms of where which which position are which part of the body may may be triggering and to deal with you know the effects but healing and using pleasure as a way of healing is very powerful and knowing our sexual or spiritual sexual self or emotional sexual self are physical sexual self are psychosexual self there’s many aspects of our sexuality that there’s how old is another concept that I think about is the interverse or your inner Universe to be explored there’s so much inside of us awareness of ourselves that can be explored at first I thought know if there’s one thing that I know it’s myself and I Know It kind of was in the area in terms of what I know me and they have access to my everything but then because I was exposed to different ways of understanding self and different histories and different cultures than I was able to kind of think differently and then and again having the experience of thinking that I knew something but then the more I knew it in the more I learned that I didn’t know it and kind of using a beginner mind to explore myself not having to be held hostage in terms of being a victim are being consistent with my past but kind of having being open to creating new possibilities for who I want to be as a person and how I want to live my life and that not being restricted by how I was conditioned or the culture that I grew up in or you know environmental restrictions but really I have been blessed to have the privilege to be able to think about an imagine what does a sexual Utopia look like what does sexual Euphoria you know how can we kind of Imagine these these these this next kind of paradigm shift in terms of where we can move into a more what lip what does liberation look like for my for our sexuality these are questions that I the privilege to explore the way I don’t get very far because I have my people that are being killed and I have you know people that are hungry and there’s there’s people that are going through really we have people fighting for clean water and you know there’s issues that kind of you know we got to take care of our basic needs to begin to kind of explore these more fun kind of topics but I do not have to acknowledge that if we don’t have our basic needs met then you know these these conversations are fun to have but not practical I hear you you know as you’re speaking it’s I’m feeling this the the pain and the does just the madness that is all of the Declaration that you’re talking about is you can really I think very very accurately in diet and blame the sexual dysfunction of the western world as the absolute root cause of the materialism that’s robbing the so-called less developed or third and fourth worlds which I will let you know where are horrible evening either again the English language totally putting his hierarchy on things but yeah I think about Maslow’s hierarchy of human needs in it’s just so yeah I really I would love to see you have $1000000 to make a National Geographic program out of bringing bringing the eyes of modern people into these places so they can see this glorious alternative more Primal holistic ways of being in the net judges I think we have so much fun thank you for that I want to talk a little bit about abundance Consciousness vs. scarcity I think that I think there’s that it’s important to kind of have a mindset that looks at you know love and in a way that is abundant versus something that’s a nose and scarcity model where it needs to be hoarded and where we have to possess something and it’s very kind of you know I don’t know it’s just kind of limiting but when you’re in another kind of using the abundance model to think of Love is there so much of it right there so many different types and so many ways to love and experience love and so many types of love and there was that part but I also want to talk to you you had mentioned pain and I have been on this kind of Journey of decolonizing pain does I think that pain in the west is very much a terrible thing that we have to try to avoid and it’s just bad right but I think that I looked at these other narratives that you know you know Rites of Passage that have people that you know have Traditions that have been deemed that horrible because pain is involved but I looked at their narratives and how they interpreted their experience and and pain is looked at as a type of wisdom as a form of knowledge as a way of being aware of a certain reality that those who have not experienced the type of pain are not privy to I think about how kind of Shifting that and with with the connotation of paying being associated with knowledge versus Pain being associated with something terrible that you can have instead of feeling bad about feeling bad and being in pain you can maybe feel good about feeling bad being in pain and so that the negative spiral doesn’t have to know what I think about no just kind of rethinking about paying in a way that it can be empowering in that you know those to get to experience pain may also be able to have a deeper appreciation of painless States versus those who have never experienced pain may not be able to enjoy not being in pain and just kind of the lessons that we can learn from our hardships and it is very often the young terrible experiences that can shed light on what’s important to us get focus on you know what we’re doing here on Earth what is our purpose and you know people who are on their deathbed often come to start an epiphany and often are kind of aware of a certain kind of appreciation that they were not privy to before so I think that I just am starting to meet up with radical self-acceptance of what of my emotions and my and all of life is is not just perfect in the way that it’s only good but there’s good and bad orders ups and downs and it fluctuates and it moves and I think that you know we’ve been sold on the specific idea of that it has to be lookin a certain way and so when we’re not in a constant state of Happiness over me when we get side of the press it’s like oh my it’s at 8 almost feels double bad but to kind of just kind of accept these alternative spaces and okay I guess I’m veering off a little bit and bring it back to sexuality but I think that it’s important to know that there are different ways and different moods that can be moved through and that can create you know conducive environments for sexual pleasure in connection and that may look different than what we what we have been trained to believe but there are many different ways of of interpreting our experiences and learning from other people’s ways of knowing think of you know even childbirth that it didn’t know it it’s supposed to be very painful but doesn’t have to be associated with suffering if you’re in a supportive environment and you know there’s other childbirth ring techniques with a used gravity to know there’s different models available that are not that are not MediCal eyes that are not westernized but are still just as valid that are still we should have be exposed to different ways of looking at things so that we can choose for ourselves that’s where I’m at I’m about having a choice and being aware to to decide what are truth is better for only exposed to a certain truth and not all the truth then then we limit our way of understanding yeah you know I’m seeing as your as your drawing these connections it really to me I see it is a very very intelligently not wouldn’t would not with wisdom of course but if you’re a very very meticulous engineered mechanism of fear and pathology of everything natural and in Primal from we’re talking about the fear of pleasure and the refreshing pleasure never talk about the fear and oppression of pain this year in repression of of death rites end of honoring that part of the life cycle so there’s so many in the medicalization so you can see the Machinery of capitalism is creating these false pathologies so they can create fear and anxiety and then medical and pharmaceutical eyes these conditions that come from a different from the being cut off from healthy sex healthy pain healthy death healthy childbirth and everything in it it’s so ripe for revolution I I think this is a good time for your insights to really be broadcast and and I definitely feel I want to help in any way I can to support your efforts do you want to talk about what what kind of public Persona you may have our ways that people can keep informed with what you’re doing and most importantly I think I really would love to see people who have means and who have collaboration potential or or you know I mean I know some really amazing videographers documentary filmmakers and maybe all it would take is a crowd Source funding campaign with the right Connections in the right marketing and you could be doing something even for vice or another you know I mean Nat Geo might be like the the the highest possible prayer but but in between others other more independent or more edgy media Outlets that would they wouldn’t just be publishing and an answer or Journal you know I don’t alot of beautiful work is stuck in academe because it doesn’t get the right publicist behind it and this is the stuff we need to hear about I think this is my struggle to I mean I’m I’m also you know I want to substantiate myself and I could I could Damion Lee know do those official publication so that I can land a job and pay back on my loans and all this but you know I think about the importance of that’s great but people outside of Vicki Academia are not accessing my work and I really my next up since I’ve used all the fancy language to you know expose how this kind of limited way of knowledge production is is not enough is that the only way I would love to have a create first of all just my next project is trade my YouTube Channel videos just so that people can I can start by up and want to really start at Basics and build up because the work that I’m doing now is really Advanced exhausted fee for you know sex Geeks and you know people who don’t have to talk about I’m not talking about the basics of white privilege and you know sex negativity and there’s certain I can just jump into these really Advanced conversations and I think you know it’s cool even studying Tantra now we can have this certain we’re jumping into these really important conversations which still needs to happen right but I also want to start bringing it to the general population that does not have the privilege of thinking about sexuality for long periods of time like I have and to kind of Translate what we’re talking about into really and I think that video making videos are really cool you know where visual people but also you know having subtitles for no visual or audio impaired individuals and kind of just bringing it to I like videos because I think of how can I reach illiterate populations how can I reach you know just thinking about moving out of course I want to write a book and I want but I think that yeah you’re definitely on to something right now I’m on Instagram I’m on I do very little tweeting but I also know Facebook is my kind of and I’m on LinkedIn to my name is spelled z e l a i pee and I have zuleika. Com and yeah I’m just starting to get my work out there and hopefully this people will start to see the importance of of why this work is really important and why why we should kind of be able to think about things in a way that will gain that will allow us to gain knowledge of of the world and ourselves I think about I talked about the interverse but I’m also really love this concept called the pluriverse which is the idea that there are multiple worlds that can exist simultaneously without hierarchy without you know you know they’re being a right and wrong one but just kind of respecting that there are multiple ways of understanding the the world and kind of beginning to tune into different perspectives to shed light on what holistic kind of you could look like this if you’re only exposed to the Western narrative your your there’s a parts that are that are missing there’s missing things that can really contribute to a deeper understanding of these really important Concepts associated with sexuality and and sex and love and relationships and connection nature and and and all these things so yeah I’m looking at your website now and I’m just floored I mean this is amazing well it’s basic girl you know yeah I mean so even just participate in this Facebook concept contest at the national sexuality education conference where I will present a project that I’m working on bringing awareness 2D Colonial sexualities or non hegemonic ways of understanding sexuality different cultural perspectives that can allow us to know that there are multiple ways of understanding sexuality and next week I’ll trying to see if there’s a possibility of winning funding if I win that I won the Facebook contest and so now Wings over I want to thank you and so I am going into the second round and you know hopefully I will anyway just getting getting his information out of course receiving support in terms of funding to allow me to bring my message to larger larger communities to just spread the love the d d Colonial love new not new it’s it’s new and old you know it’s it’s it’s deconstructing and then reconstructing it’s it’s really having developing our ability to think critically about things that we could easily take for granted but we’re also constructed and and created but who’s benefiting from the these Concepts and what concepts can we all benefit from and and grow and pursue Enlightenment and Injustice epistemic Justice and or these these facts are these so-called knowledge systems that really undermine oppress marginalize in silence alternative ways of knowing and at the at the expense of of us not knowing other ways of knowing and some really on a mission to increase sexual multi-cat the stomach literacy or basically what is fancy academic language but what I’m saying is that I’d like people to be aware that there are multiple ways of knowing about sexualities and genders and love and different ways of experiencing it in understanding it that does not have to be hierarchical it doesn’t have to say that this lifestyle is better than that lifestyle what is your truth and what is you know what is your authenticity and self-expression and begin to imagine what a safe haven for a sexual Utopia could could look like and I think that I think I think we’ll be exposed to Tantra I think we’ll be exposed to Ocean ality I think we’ll be exposed to our history and our you know these different cultures that precede things in a different way that can really shed light in terms of how we want to model our life and how we can heal from either you know historical rooms or or even just watching the news and music videos you know Reviving matriarchal society philosophy and kind of learning from I don’t want to romanticize everything but I think there’s a lot that can be learned and I think that we can take the best parts of different practices and philosophy being careful not to do columbusing and or you know what kind of stealing of ideas and misappropriating but I think that we should be called you know information you think that with the internet that or you know information is being spread that we would be so cold what are more aware but actually it’s really almost confining our way of knowing because you were very specific but again there’s still a lot of potential and I would love to utilize the technology available from me and really thinking about what a time to be alive right now and in the history of humankind that we have been privileged to have this this connection you know how would we do without the internet and I would have met you and I think that it’s just beautiful that that this kind of thing can can can happen in so really supporting this kind of technology so that we can share the love Aleutian yeah I’m really I will be so excited if you were to take some of these lectures that you’ve done and actually make them into YouTube video yeah yeah I would love to do that thing at first sight I had to overcome my you know according of intellectual property you know these are you know this is my my intellectual babies that I worked years on creating could you know go in the hands of the wrong people I have my mom helped me get over that a long time I just got to spread the love but I was kind of bringing it to the audience I don’t really like to meet people where they’re at and kind of access where they’re at so I can start from where I need to start so you know my lectures are really geared towards homosexuality Educators and other sex Geeks and it moves into this Advanced conversation but I think that it’s I’ve got to get it ready to go everywhere to do you have it accessible and that’s definitely my next mission I’m going to be working on this next year so I appreciate you inviting me on on this awesome podcast to kind of just briefly kind of touch on some of the things that we have available to us yeah thank you it’s been such a gift and something that I recommend if you haven’t done it already is have you heard of patreon.com it’s a it’s it’s sort of the ongoing crowd Source funding platform where you basically your fans your friends your fans your family your investors if anybody can subscribe can makes it a subscription payments minutes it’s more of like a tip jar or in the classic sense of being a patron of the Arts so if people are excited about the work you’re doing they can support you to produce content on the platforms you know if you’re if you’re blogging or making videos video blogging or podcasting or making music or whatever it is creative people who are publishing content into the cloud basically where people get to stream it and you know there’s not a things are just anything you can digitize basically and make it available to people any media that you can digitize and produce it’s a beautiful way to not have to always be competing with sales and marketing of lyrics that are exclusive you know so you could still have all that like a like if you had a missed a bit of advice but just I’m in the same boat am I why I have a passion I want to get my content recognize I also want to quit my day job and do my passion and just do research and produce content and have people who Biggby patrons of my work is what you’re doing is important I understand there’s not a lot of funding for what you’re doing or at least it’s the trying to get funding is a distraction from your passion and if you could just have people support you and you’re basically a magazine with his subscribers doing subscribing to it and paying your bills to be able to produce more content and you know it’s so I would I would definitely yeah I’m just kind of getting started with with that but I I believe it’s it’s kind of the new model and Paradigm so that all of this material that you’ve been working on you can get some some real Financial nourishment for it and you can continue and just keep cranking it out and not and not worrying about whether or not it gets made into a book right away or who owns the licensing there’s this here’s the next thing is the next thing and then people you know it’s really invigorating and so far I’ve heard great success stories on it so I’m really hopeful and I feel like yeah I mean there’s ways to monetize revenue from YouTube and stuff like that but people can be really generous on that and I feel like yeah II a Mia is so rich with this kind of stuff but unless you’re a real geek you’re not even going to notice is you know in the world yet so yeah and you know what there’s one more thing I want to say is which is this this is epistemological I’m like how how come people grok are grasping kind of get a more visceral understanding of how important it is it’s so to me it’s it’s such an important intellectual tool is so because it can literally liberate you like if you want to be liberated you can seriously take apart your belief system with the system epistemological tool kit says you know you can see and then you can take stuff out and you can hack your own epistemology and you can hack epistemology and that’s what revolutions are trying to do in call the autosexual decolonization process that really kind of describes what happened to me when I began to deconstruct Western epistemology and look at African epistemology to kind of unlearn these oppressive Notions and right uncomfortable unlearning oppression and your deconstructing and reconstructing and and you know what Liberation looks like in and looking at alternative models and empowerment and kind of the Praxis of it or the actual turning the theory we have all these great theories lovely I can describe so many amazing theories but then what how does that look like in Practical real life turn and and and using that and and incorporating spiritualities are things that may not be seen physically but can be felt and rebirth like just going through a transformative way when your mind is expanded to New Dimensions hard to go back to the old ways and out of acknowledging that I’m a new person and and maintaining the transfer transformative you know when when I found the moment of Liberation when you’re able to let go of something that’s very powerful but it doesn’t necessarily maintain itself it’s it’s it’s a moment that has to be kind of nurtured and we have to grow through our muscles to be able to even identify and be aware of of of of things that are are you know these this episode of violence it’s the most subtle form of violence that most people are very not even aware of and but we have to train our brain Raptor you know meditate and and and tune into our and bodied knowledge are visceral knowledge and and pick another so many different things to do in and I’m not saying that I know the way I’m exploring what you meant to Patient looks like for me I’m exploring what my sexuality is look like for me so I can begin to articulate if you relate to it cool if you don’t cool you know it’s just a part of the pleura vs. just an aspect microcosm of what of an example and I’m not trying to undermine anyone or invalidate anyone experienced different than me by just I’m just trying to lead by example I’m trying I’m trying to you know I’m I’m so concerned I was so obsessed with liberating other people and then I just got to the point where I need to liberate myself and you know I want to hear other people will actually I need to heal myself before I go out and do all these things so just take responsibility for for creating and manifesting their dreams and really trying to keep keep positive and watch listen to you know what you’re saying to yourself and think it’s very easy to get into these really negative kind of mentality is when you know what’s going on what’s going on but I really try to keep positive and and and manifesting for transformant transformation in the paradigm shift that can really nourish diversity and and respect different viewpoints and and pluralism and and sexual expression and health and wellness and liberation finding a way to Anchor this concept for so-called the layperson or if we want to stay in in folk or colloquial terms I think the way that people already have a sort of a notion of epistemology is in is in the expression breaking something down and that I heard someone say recently I was like I’m going to remember this for the rest of my life it was so it was so such an appropriate expansion of the term of someone just said talk to this person or call them or something cuz they’re going they’re going to break it all the way down and and I just want to say sofa and passion about how they were certain that it was going to be broken not just broken down and they’ll break it down for you if they’re going to break it all the way down that until you know epistemology is the theory of knowledge or the study of knowledge or the branch of philosophy about theory of knowledge or rational belief and justification I think about just yeah I mean when you are able to deconstruct and break things down you get to a point you know I deconstructed sex and sexuality and gender down to the point where I had no idea what it was because everything I Learned was question and then I got to go to space where I could create meaning for myself and if I can reconstruct it for myself and this is where we can begin to imagine what Liberation looks like and why what an empowered Viewpoint looks like and to let go of oppressive ways of knowing that are not conducive to our Liberation and happiness and yeah I did I do I think that understanding the way we know things and the way you know how we were conditioned how we are sexualization or how we come to know our our sexuality what are you know where we get our information what information we we have and know that there’s so much there’s there’s a lot that we know there’s so much more to learn there’s a lot that we don’t know there’s what we know we know and that we and then there’s a part that we know we don’t know but there’s a part that we don’t know that we don’t know that that is so much and when you know epistemology help reminded me of the parts of knowledge and sexuality that I didn’t even know that I didn’t know until we yeah I think this is I can’t I mean for the last what was it it’s only been it’s only been a couple or a few days since we happened upon each other on Twitter and and I read I take careful note of people’s Twitter descriptions because this is how some of the best conversations it happen is just what people are doing that someone is doing this I can’t believe it in and where what we’ve arrived at since just I mean the way that we’ve you had you have done packed these terms and I have been able to get some deep nourishing validation for stuff that I can’t really talk to other people about because they look at me like I have another head growing out of my neck when I say the word epistemology yeah it’s it’s overlooked in so I’m just early nourished and oh yeah that I guess it does remind me now you were you have an interesting you’re flipping the script on the term orgasm correct so I was looking at sexual response models and looking at the history of the creation of it with Masters and Johnson and Kaplan and you know all my sex geeking out and how we’re trained in terms of how we understand sexual response but it actually is the foundation of the DSM and you know when you do not hit these sexual responses In This Very linear way also the Reed model is also a non-linear model available to us I was thinking about how they’re mostly westernize and then, I came across ocean ality that talks about it as a flow as an energy and that really looking at so I went into the literature of emotionality and I found that it talks about being again as a flow and so I made a model I could share with you sometime where I kind of visualize it but it’s I called the flow of ocean alley and basically talks about a force that the the Paradigm the Creative Energy between sexuality and fertility that losing energy flow From Desire arousal copulation pleasure the filament conception birth and growth and it’s very important to say that you know it’s very pleasure the Pleasure Principle is at the heart of this creative energy that is referred to as oceans honey so it definitely has is his stemming from Yoruba cosmology and he or bypass tomorrow and metaphysics and all this but it but really talking about that actually it doesn’t have to be instead of organ what I noted is that an incentive orgasm they said fulfillment and I thought was really important when looking at using you as an expert to subjectively decide what is the feeling to you rather than did I did I meet the standard you know orgasmic you know this big euphoric when it’s so Define and you know your your engorged you know the physiological responses they can be there or they may not be or we can look at I think about model for sapiosexual Zar though those that are lovers of intelligence and can find a Radisson through the mind and I applied at plaid I like to apply the model to thinking about it in terms of China on a in a sapiosexual way in terms of like you know I may have a desire to have a conversation and then be aroused through the conversation and then the copulation maybe just having this thought you know penetrate that have a conversation penetrate my mind so that it’s expanded in a way that I’m thinking about things in a different way which is to cause an epiphany which is for me and put me zove are you for having thinking about things in a way and having now a new lands in which to be the world is very empowering and pleasurable for me and and 2 to have the filament in okay that’s fulfilling for me to have an eye deer that manifest and you know having the conception of it which would be maybe to explain explain it articulator share it with someone and have it grow into something where other people can understand and then in a way that it that it may apply I apply it to how maybe a sapiosexual might experience pleasure and how that may not be literal literally you know conception doesn’t have to be literally penis and vagina but it can be interpreted and turn I had a a mindgasm you know I had a pleasurable experience that decrease my stress and increase my connection and you know all these things that we may be benefited we can benefit from from the sex can also are many ways in which we can experience this kind of energy that doesn’t have to be literal and it doesn’t have to be linear and it doesn’t have to be every single step in if you don’t if you are not you know what if you don’t have desire before arousal then you know you can be diagnosed with all these disorder yeah it’s the mechanical if it’s causing distress then it doesn’t have to be pathologize it one of the categories of having it being an official diagnosis is it has to cause distress sounds interesting or you have there’s premature ejaculation in in gay males virtually unheard-of because that’s not what’s important to an end it may not cause the stress because if the goal was to come and they came then it’s okay you know it doesn’t have to be pathologize in a way or and I think that’s that’s probably a bad example but I’m just thinking about how there are it would be nice if we if we didn’t have to have something wrong with us and that what it is and I think about how my parents aren’t married and in America it was like oh you poor child you must be so like they were they made me feel bad about my situation I go to Jamaica and they’re like do you have parents will then you’re lucky you’re good your parents talk that’s amazing you know and then I was felt good and then I just thought about wow okay there’s definitely different ways of knowing what a problem is and a lot of how we understand problems are located in the mine and so you know typical you know therapeutic intervention is cognitive restructuring and and and reframing of our ideas to not be catastrophic to kind of begin to think of things in a way that we can feel empowered and move on with our lives in a positive manner and not have it stifle us not have problems be terrible but again it’s a lot at the importance of of being open-minded and receptive to transformation and and positive growth can really be beneficial to 22 Harmony in humanity before you said the word therapeutic I believe I was I was thinking I’m hearing you I’m hearing you develop this modality a healing modality of therapeutic epistemology you know how to develop and I think of about the you know we had to Define what is the problem you know I’m like well the problem is he was sick white Mana weapon model epistemology one way of thinking and so my solution is multi epistemic literacies thinking about things in the you know that there are multiple epistemology is available for us to kind of deal with it will and I thought about how internalized oppression in the present forces of society that I associated with stemming from colonialism and kind of that all those mentalities that create that kind of mentality can we need to heal from it we have historical trauma and we have the effects lingering in today’s society I think that racism should be a mental disorder that’s not in that’s not considered an issue a mental challenge but I think that if we begin to kind of reframe what are What are problems are then we can move into you know different solutions and I I am offering online therapy to those in Pennsylvania see a New York I’m on breakthru.com as well as you know I am based in New York so I do Sex Therapy but it will be great if I was able to create a healing modality and really develop nourish might might my experience and you know kind of my privilege of having been able to think about these things in it and applying it to a way that we can begin to heal and liberate people so yes absolutely yeah I hope that I hope you’ll be blessing us with a free introductory book that we can sign up to get on your mailing list and then we’ll get future updates for everything so and no more internet marketing geek stuff but yeah it’s it’s of all the people who I know are out there really a building empires of marketing their branded and trademarked healing modalities and versions of sacred sexuality instruction all these things I really would would so love to see your work be exalted in yeah TED talks and the works I think that would be great and so yeah I am definitely going to be praying for your total all these things coming to fruition and and hopefully I’m kind of seating a little bit more and support for for all that and we’ll be looking for you we can talk again and and explore maybe these specific topics and I’m hoping to get to a point with this podcast where I have a budget where I can literally assemble panels and pay people to do the panel so there’s so many things that we touch down in his conversation where I felt like if I could just call in if I had a few of my friends and colleagues and former guest on retainer somehow right now I’m that exact keyword or something and that would be super fun because the connections that I can already see between my world and your world to help facilitate this or are really giving me chills so I think this is sex such a powerful new important work and it’s a part of my calling and my purpose so I thank you for for you know having your podcast to you know I can’t have these conversations we can’t have these conversations right it’s very specific what we’re talking about and so I really appreciate any kind of opportunity to to share my specialty with good people who are who are open-minded to to it you know that’s my that’s my main audience so far that I that I like to that I that I get to be more self-expression authentic is when you know they’re there open towards empowerment and and listening to alternate perspectives so thank you so much for your time and have a wonderful night and thank you for making the time for this and looking forward to talking to you yes thank you all right have a good night sleep. Concho Park. Calm and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is to see me and improving the podcast your donations will help establish permaculture goddess temples of ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email bad at Tantra Punk. Com Thomas gay