In this episode I’m discussing a natural history of demons with Laura Marjorie Miller. Together we compare notes on our experiential and theoretical knowledge of demons as misunderstood friends, and misdiagnosed foes. We synthesize ecological and esoteric epistemologies and attempt to lay a foundation for a modern medical and psycho-therapeutic approach to these diverse and elusive creatures.
Laura Marjorie Miller writes about Yoga, magic, myth, fairy tales, travel, photography, marine conservation, and other soulful subjects, She is a regular columnist at www.elephantjournal.com, a contributing editor at www.beyoumediagroup.com, and a public-affairs writer at UMass Amherst. Her writing has been featured in & at such publications and sites as Parabola, Seven Miles of Steel Thistles, Tripping, GotSaga, and MariaShriver.com. She is based in Massachusetts, where she lives with a cat named Huck.
Read the article we discuss “Why Feeding Our Demons Means Loving Ourselves” here: http://www.elephantjournal.com/2014/06/why-feeding-our-demons-means-loving-ourselves/
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin welcome Laura Margie Miller to this concert podcast this is episode number 23 and I discovered an article that you wrote on the air elephant journal and it was how is it why why feeding your demons means letting ourselves is that the right thank you I was very intrigued by that and it maybe want to see if we can talk and first I want to give you the opportunity to introduce yourself a bit and get some background on the different types of writing that you do and then we can talk more about your inspiration for that article and and maybe give us not to 74 s University of Massachusetts is a public relations Rider lot of different spiritual subjects had articles about yoga coming from my yoga background as you know yoga student in a yoga teacher and ask if I can also write about fairy tales mythology and but also travel and then I have another band of being ocean conservation writer so I have a lot of concern with the answers mysticism in nature and also I think ourselves finding finding ourselves in a healthy balance inside of that and no I’m a very eclectic Rider but studying magic and I love nature and I love to read and I love animals and thank you for all you know how do I focus it for for them but I take her concert punk you know it’s a contract like the other Indian philosophy that studies both like more classical yoga studies and then also tantric studies nurseries through and body through Hapa yoga so that awesomely I noticed your references to the buggy to in the article and and I’ve been studying that recently myself and discovering there’s a lot yeah a lot of missing out on for a long time in that in that work so I’ve been I’ve been looking for people to actually help really demystify and apply some of that that was them for people in in modern times who are struggling with different manifestations of everything from I mean to me it seems like every form of neurosis was kind of prophesized about in ancient times as a endpoint of mass demonic infection and then the back with me nor in the the Hindu tradition that was warned that we will be entering this Kali Yuga World age where we’re going to be in some deep spiritual crisis and be in his time of real disconnection from truth and rampant forms of what you know if your lack of a better word are considered forms of thin I guess which seemed to allow for more growth more infestation for these creatures that were actually referred to releasing the translation I’ve heard referred to as as they’re being different species of demons and that really piqued my interest and I think about someone alot of what’s coming out of this new psychedelic shamanic kind of Renaissance where people are going into ceremonies been having these massive sort of shamanic exorcism type healing event square foot face-to-face with what looks like a bunch of repulsive creatures that are somehow nested inside of their either their chakras or they’re sore then it gets most kennamer key is for the Wakefield what are we there’s a medical science has got got some catching up to do to these ancient pre-modern medical disciplines of shamanism and I’m seeing there’s a lot of parallels between these boots are Buddhism the the Tantra the Hindu Contra the Buddhist Tantra and where there is a real seriousness like to be taken about how about the existence phenomenological existence of these creatures not just approximation swear I think in your article you said you know the mythology is a map to the cosmology so do you want to give some article yeah so that it’s feeding feeding your demons means loving yourself I was using demons cuz you know what you think demons to be like part of ourselves that we have demonized so they were not externally Source coming into us you know they were part of that we created you know that we were saying about or parts about ourselves that we’re afraid of the basement or the dungeon and then because we fear them and we see her being what they are or what they represent and so so that is not too much like a different species like those are actually parts of ourselves and so from my article weird away from my article what happened was I was sitting in meditation and I can’t read this book to a friend back and I never got it back but it made a really big and for whatever reason Parts with me that I had felt fear of her felt shamed about and and for whatever reason the forms that they took in my mind we’re from the old advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster manual which I had when I was like 10 years old and it was to get it and they were very familiar to me and they were like coming up out of like a hole in the ground and this is like a Sunday morning meditation I think it was like a weekend but it was really nice and warm they came up and I saw them like Anna Greenfield I was sitting out like on a picnic table and it came up and I like they’re looking at me in the sort of Starfall way and suddenly I realized that I had come out I was I was well I was sick of fighting my way out of a bad relationship in which the person who I was in a relationship was it has heard intuitive way of locating and me the things that I was afraid of being and he would say to me like he knows he did something that would anger any normal person and I get angry and he’s like you’re an angry person and I would because I was considering myself and I like I was on a spiritual path will nobody wants to stay I’m an angry person no one wants to be jealous person cuz that shows that your week and nobody wants to be an angry person so I would basically putting a tube sock over something it in my mouth is this kind of like angry person you know and then all of my natural things that were parts of me and like cramp in my anger down and taking it away from me so I was basically kind of like neutering myself in a way or decline myself and like but I was like you know the woman you know I don’t want to be too crazy of the woman that I’m not the jealous true I’m not angry like no and I realized it what you know I just tried to put all those parts of me away and so it wouldn’t even have like it because I was so afraid being those things and so what happened was you know that morning I don’t know if I was going to break up. Or it took us you break up but like it was like they just suddenly the team play In My Mind by then it was like felt them and I was like no my God you know know you’re part of me like what you’d like and then like I pictured myself bringing them to my that happened was they they weren’t like external malignant forces they were things within me that could become malignant if you’re not if you don’t acknowledge them you know if you don’t say this is a part of me and if I really do love myself I love all the parts of myself even the parts of myself that are gnarly or that I’m kind of afraid of and I think that that is being ugly and afraid of me I love them afraid of being jealous or whatever you know maybe I’m maybe no one will ever love me maybe I’m like you know awkward that little girl that nobody love and all these versions of myself into myself and I felt so much better and I felt the cement sense of relief and love and I was crying you know because it was for such sense of wholeness and try to make this clear in the article is Shadow or eating your Shadow but if it’s not a license to go run and treat people badly or making your morality your maturity to another level to where you know that you have the capacity for these things that you can make decisions on your behavior based on a whole self and not a split self you’re trying to be like and I think it also gives you a strength not to be manipulated it’s their stuff if you can contrive the dark parts of yourself nobody can ever use those parts of U2 to try to win one over on you I guess it’s like suddenly your whole in yourself and it makes you a lot stronger and it makes you feel better I’m feeling better cuz it’s internally source that was a lot I had to find personal Heather I wanted to have some photographs for it and he was just placed in this spring it took forever and New England pictures and we laughed a lot and it was hilarious because like I don’t know what this is what this says about anything cuz I was like big gaping like love the picture thank you so much for sharing that experience and giving people some inspiration to integrating the language and the visualizations to give people courage cuz it is you have to be brave you know how to turn inward and confront these truths and you also talked about the I haven’t heard the word pronounce e s c h o d how do you could you talk a bit about that and choad I Now pronounce it wrong because I’m sure that they’re like all took that and Buddhist people who are like you know on that he was like all over me but I try to represent it is accurately as I could from my memory of the from the book like the process of star cancer is Graveyard a she sings and then you give them what they need and they become after you do feed them then they become your allies but there’s something that they need from you they need your compassion they need you know they need your validation they need to be seen and at the moment that you’re able to do that it’s probably and showed it’s probably like a ritualised forms of the other salvation ritual container for it but that you you see what’s what they what they need and it’s I think it’s like a deeper and probably that’s why I to contradict a tantric practice because it’s sort of like walking you know with your feet on like both sides of you know so you can stay okay I’m going to go down into these dark areas and of myself or of the universe and and be in that area but not be subsumed you know there’s like a little bit of I think you have to be swamped by in a little bit to release interest rates for u.s. control to is that make sense in this exploration and it’s kind of a I’ve been saying this since I had my first kind of eruption of the experience of seeing that you know that I was in ayahuasca ceremony and was working through some trauma in my private you know domain of healing journeying in a group ceremony and I just kept seeing what look like things that look like mites or or spiders arachnids and ice in hand and I knew folkloric lie that these are sort of analogies that are often use all over the world the offending the things that are full for 1 minute. Forms are living biological and anatomical entities they’re they’re not the interesting that they’re just Shadows or energies is to is is like Stephen Hawking would say or has said that something from another dimension is going to cast Shadow into other dimensions that aren’t the same dimensions so there’s like an imprint or something where you can feel this dark say someone you’re out in public and you have a dog and like some person walks by who maybe it’s really obviously be shoveled and sort of obviously sort of state to be a creepy or maybe they are in a business suit but the dog fences that there is something attached to them or festering within them that is to be on guard against and and so that’s so in this Dimension we might perceive that intuitively in people who are more maybe intuitive we’re going to kind of feel some clenching up there going to respond to it on like a different sort of special or level of sensation and then some Clairvoyance like the ones they were hired in the pranic healing research for that healing modality would say oh yeah it’s in the auric field are these cloudy fields of Gunk that are just soooo pestering in within the chakras that through that enter through wounds and they look like cockroaches and here we’re going to sweep them out and throw him into into a bucket of salt water and problem solved and your limb can now grow back or you can walk again or if or you can have freedom from neurosis and these are like classic biblical types of shamanic healing set I’m just referencing the pranic healing research because it hits hits has been at a real value to me to be able to understand this and what you would probably appreciate and where I wanted to go with you know we having a back to you is is this idea that since you do a lot of work in in nature in your very connected with that with natural just being a picture of a naturalist that seems like if you could imagine my fantasy is that is that people get fed up with the pharmaceutical industrial complex and they start to read articles like yours and they say you know what we need organic some form of organic Psychiatry that’s not so destructive on her you know our organs and that don’t seem to just mask the problems that just work on the sentence we need to get deeper into a root level healing of this stuff and we need like naturalist to help us actually explore these other dimensions of reality and we need so like let’s say that you were given a major Grant from National Geographic to actually make these taxonomy use of these different types of entities that are going to yield results that look like what you’re describing from The Dungeons & Dragons cuz I was like yeah that’s exactly what I see you if you could imagine that there that they don’t ask him to give us like we were going to give you a cover story you got you know you got a whole feature to take this further into lifting vibration that I could very much see whole and identify with so I’m kind of a but that’s just for me just within the last few years so I got a lot of catching up to do to the people who’ve been in that world for much longer and I just want to thank you cuz if you’re you know yeah it sounds like you were part of the lineage that has brought this salvation into my house so I can thank you for that and give you that little bit of back of myself but so moving into the something that you you do some some work if I’m understanding correctly some of your professional livelihood work is is education sexual sexuality education and bringing some of these initiatory technologies that you’ve discovered into that world so could you talk a bit about what you do in that in that says space yeah okay so when we talk about you know professional or I don’t know like you know what we get you know how to identify the work that we do or place its values at what we get paid to do what we do just without being asked to get paid enough so a lot of this work I would say is you know by nature of what it is is in as I was saying before as in the marginalized safe spaces that are created through other things like Gatherings that are already happening you know I don’t have to go through that hole you know system knots wooden props judge some of these things so I think there’s kind of a harkening back to the way it was in that this kind of knowledge was safeguarded after contacts you know like a lot of the indigenous healing Traditions or however we want to call it you know how to be a sort underground and so I I say that’s kind of reflected in how we how I approached this kind of thing even though you know today will will will post the events publicly on Facebook and things like that there is still a ring to it that is about you know not waiting for us to be given our our approval by by Society you know we just know that it’s important so we do this and and so like I’ve been doing this constantly one of my goals that I set out of certain point was that at least you know once a year there would be a community gathering around love sex intelligence and the rest of the time you know we haven’t online for him but very important for that hole project has been and which we’ve stepped it up in the recent months to make sure that hopefully like every month we can do something is to to say that the community around learning about how to how to harmonise our relationships how to defend our sexuality into something that is you know how uplifting our spiritual path is something that needs to be done you know with with with more support and so that’s why it’s it can’t just functioning online capacity so that’s something I’ve committed to we have we’ve been actually our next event is focusing squarely on sexual initiation I’m pink resented by someone named ya Lila Espinoza is looking at how to tweeze mower practices that she learned in Peru you know have informed around healing and and then creating her own initiation but yeah I also you know as an astrologer I work with people and often it is around relating I’ve done a little bit of like you know support for people I think what happens is you know when when you become a central figure in any given Community people will come to you when they’re in crisis and this is what has informed my my the work that I do around you know Rites of Passage is responding to crisis from a place that seeks to get to the root of what is causing the crisis which in so many cases is that there is a lack of of support and people therefore will resort to self initiation just something I’ve had to do in my own life and and see it so much the case for some of the other people and there’s another psychological shifts that occur when people an emotional shift that occur when people feel a sense that they’re being held that they are being that they can fit they can let go and have a safe space to go into those wounds and begin working on them and of course it would help if we had a little more guidance and how to do that but thought comes over over time you know we have to work from where we’re at and so that’s something that I’ve been in in the my own process of of my own work around here figuring what those things are with those tools are and Tom yeah like I said I’m not an expert but I can at least Point people in some directions I guess what we’re looking at here is that there’s an underground space very intentional underground space that is more conducive to kind of freestyling or rolling your own ceremony and just holding the light and and letting those who it call who are called to it you know it would become integrated into keep it at the gala Therrien and flowing so that you don’t have cult of personality and politics and all of the scenester Hipster things coming in and that’s always up in it and he has to be on guard against and whatnot so I see there’s that unfoldment in that development and then there’s people who are also working like stay in the social work field who are informing their peers and colleagues in those sectors with these Neo shamanic techniques or nonviolent communication or your where it’s legal and accessible and permissible you know legally again to be able to put people on amor I guess like prisons prison you Lila has a very and I’ve done some I interviewed her in the past and I’m a big fan of what she’s doing and I know she has a strong background in clinical social work and is feeding back into that sector the wisdom of of the Amazon and and Beyond and so is that something that you have I just thought I remember reading somewhere you know or talk to you at some point about how this is this is like you could be hired by the more formal above ground and sectors of social work or Community work with where you can be brought in to bring some of the stuff that would normally be or I guess it’s just that it’s a very interesting Cutting Edge of an intersection and I if I’m not mistaken that’s that you you are like sort of partially in that world 2 of of social work or is that something I understand correctly yeah I’ll I will string this conversation back and see where where I where I am placed social work as well as all the modalities of counseling and healing you know like they are all part and parcel to supporting and upholding status quo capitalist system so I’m going to like you know like you know also haven’t been in the punk scene also had a big enough impact on my my party now 13 m in terms of healing these wounds we have to look at that and I we can’t we can’t say like that are healing is going to be independent of the world that is reeling and suffering from the continuation of this system as it is and so that’s where for me like bringing capitalism into the equation is is something that’s real tricky it’s something that I feel needs to be kind of understood. You know we we can’t just rely on having sting services that we can pay for because that creates a gap you know where some people are going to have accessible abilities to to the healing and others won’t and that’s that’s not healthy for anyone and and also that it doesn’t address the root cause of why we need social workers to begin with and why we need counseling and all of that so I really like the notion of cultural healing that’s where more where I would be comfortable in any way kind of looking at myself as any kind of healer I don’t think we we can really heal individuals that’s really something that you know a person will need to and it’s not like they can be facilitated to do their own healing work but nobody can fix us we have to fix ourselves that’s that’s more I think a more powerful Paradigm to be apart of but you know I I I have worked in the realm of I focused therapy and you know I have spent quite a bit of time around the spirit plant medicines and seeing how the plant medicines have assisted and I do I do continue continuously work to increase my knowledge and wisdom around working with us plants and and that also brings us back into that hole realm of discussion around you know ancestors and working with them or perhaps that’s something we haven’t really touched upon but maybe she said it’s just that in any form of healing that we do I guess for me the important thing that I really try to bring into whatever I do connecting back with her ancestors and healing the trauma of how we were disconnected from those ancestors and how that plays out in any kind of sexual wounds or emotional wounds that we carry and so that’s something that I I I feel like the role of initiation and ritual can can really do and that’s that’s been its Province ever since people began doing patrols I think it’s to build upon the legacy of their ancestors and to draw and their their help and support cool said that yeah thank you for helping me understand the other parameters a little better and and 100% there with you I have I have been because I live in the United States where there’s different laws around no prostitution in in how that affects the healing with sexual touch and pleasure as medicine and stuff like that is a lot more yes I understand in in Canada there’s there’s a lot more interesting legal space in order to do Hands-On Sexual Healing work relative to the US where it’s completely off limits in so I because of that adapting to that reality and also is a permaculture designer myself I have to think very deeply about how to navigate this issue of for-profit healing work that kind of in most sectors is about like you said I’ll put in my own words it’s like they want to know if if the if you’re at a time of time robot that supposed to be producing a set amount to be a productive member of the of the GDP then then if you’re not functioning properly than the the goal of the mainstream social work or psychotherapeutic or psychiatric Fields they’re trying to get you back into the rat race as soon as possible and they’ll do that with drugs with talk therapy or whatever that is about avoiding through tissue which is the disconnection from urethane from a healthy holistic wild habitat you know a night as a primitivist I see that you know the solution to your Neurosis is to retry belies and Get Growing your own food again in and rebuild that fabric so you know there with you on that tension about right livelihood in and taking money for healing and what is he doing so I really like what you said and that just is going to it’s going to help me a lot looking at healing the cultural level and healing the if I’m understanding right and I’ll put a couple my own words on it but I feel like we’re trying to build the scaffolding or were trying to design the context for people to take the responsibility of a personal healing and gone to that journey and so if you if what would you say are some practical skills are tools from all of your things that you would teaching and training and a things that you discovered in your own journey to where you’re in power tools for empowerment that you suggest or are resources that you suggest people Explorer to if they’re called to do the cultural healing work weather for profit or non-profit. Some dance between the two or it and then what what are some recommendations for people who are on their own path and aren’t necessarily called to do the the cultural healing yeah I mean it’s it’s a pretty vast subject that one but I think that a few points that I could think about and talk about our that I’m going to this idea of bringing you back in the station rights and recognizing that in the absence of them what do we have you know we are we are sadly in there without initiated Elders so many of us and if there are any of Elders that hold that ability to to guide those those ones are those are worth their weight in gold you know there really is people that we should try to lift up and and give them their recognition and see you know and then in the absence of that it’s like we kind of by default Our Generations people that will have to hopefully fulfill that and reach a place where we can actually help upcoming generations to go in a way that they don’t have to completely go it alone and and figure it out on them on their own the way that so many of us have had to and so there is a movement around Rites of Passage I sit on the board if you passageways which is a network that focus is squarely on you no Rites of Passage for you coming of age from all different walks and and and modalities you know some of them are our Boys to Men oriented some of them are girls to women some of them are starting to incorporate non gender binary kind of approaches as well which is good and and this whole focus on bringing back the ancestors into looking at Rites of Passage is is starting to happen and something that I focused on and so that’s that’s a resource you know people can go to youth passageways. Oregon and look at what programs are out there and they can also think about how they can add to that list and bring in things that are needed around especially around sexuality and relationship which is often I noticed kind of a big gap in a lot of programs out there you know because they’re confined confined or constrained by the conservative values where they take place and you know what school system is you know this is one of those places lagging for that kind of thing so it’s a role that I think that many people who understand the need can step into and cultivate as career paths you know and some people are pig figuring out how they can weave their credentials says on Sexual Health Educators or sexual therapist or sexual trauma or no trauma-based therapists you know into this realm of initiation and that’s that needs to happen on a on an increased level the other I see a lot of because of what I was saying around looks really don’t how many Avenues to learn other than through you know what the books in the workshops and offerings around sexuality thoughts unfortunately are not rooted in in people’s only need two lineages generally speaking you know so the whole Tantra movement is pretty much so you know a cultural appropriator of New Age fight version of those Traditions that would have been squashed by Christianity especially and so I think there’s work to be done there and as much as possible Retreat retrieving reconstructing are reconnecting with our own ancestral Traditions which I’m sure you know had their own knowledge wisdom around how to how to raise healthy harmonious individuals with healthy sexualities from from the vantage point of how what little I do know has been has been done in indigenous cultures and without wanting to appropriate for them from them I’ll just give way of examples out of that you know in and certain cultures that are studied like the Mayan culture and I think to some degree on certain places within Creek culture there’s examples of how as societies you know that the children are raised from an early age 2 reach a point where they understand how to how to harmonize with the other sex and how to to look after each other and that’s just a very basic principle that I feel like you know that’s that’s worth kind of learning how to integrate into our family structures if we have children that were raising just to keep in mind that you know there is a need for them to learn skills around things like consent and around being responsible with with one’s sexual energies and and I needs to start before they reach that age of adolescence where they’re just harder to connect with if you haven’t built up that Foundation so that’s something that I think about will do you so if I if if we check out that the organization that you mention is it would that be good place to find and something like a more enlightened or more conscious like sexual education curriculum or guidebook do you know if people were working on something like that so if I know if you know parents who were going through the puberty of their child that they have something that’s not just this cold clinical Western and even though that sort of evolving a little bit you know with things like a sack didn’t and whatnot I see a lot but the The ancestral wisdom and you know the ceremonial Rites of Passage you know how does it how does the Modern Family say okay well you’re about to start feeling you know hormonal Energy’s how do we give you know create even if it’s just within their family or their Community yoga or whatever is something more than what’s being offered in the normal sex ed or what they’re listening in gangster rap music and watching on sitcoms obviously you know it’s enough for lack of lot of alternative options it’s one one place to look and we’re always looking for others so whenever we discover something then we will see to auditory resources and we are trying to vet those resources and those organizations to make sure that they really are you know at least there’s some some level of you know safe recommendation that we can give for those those organizations we’re not we’re not in the position to really kind of completely you know set standards but we are trying to we have a code of what we call it a cross-cultural protocol so we do look at that aspect that you have for what we’re talking about that’s you know if that’s another layer that we will hopefully get to eventually and I do know that there are people within our Network who are really strongly focused on this particularly around girls to women kind of education and and Rites of Passage and some of the Boys to Men once but I think it’s also something we need to to enhance as well oh that’s great yeah that’s that’s that’s what I wanted to hear so that I can just refer people to this ongoing and so and then the LSI is kind of its there’s a Facebook I’ve been interacting with the the Facebook group for a while so is that something you recommend people plug-in I mean that’s the goal of that is to feature blogs and generate discussions from those blogs and also to establish a resource of services as well as information and so that’s you know running on in a very limited volunteer capacity and so you know it’s something that I hope will eventually become a very powerful resource but already it’s you know it’s been feedback that I’ve received that you know even just the the group that we have on Facebook somebody posted recently. You know it’s really help them in their in their path which is nice to hear and I’ve heard that a few times and I try to curate that group in such a way where it’s like you know it’s trying to generate discussion and it’s it’s trying to be a safe space where where people can get into some of those I’m intimate revealing is of what what’s going on in their lives one of the things that kind of came out of love sex intelligence local as a connection with Tamara and the love school that they have which is a very congruence philosophy to love sex intelligence and they’re their work to try to create or with to create safe spaces for people to to share stories of what’s going on in their intimate lover sexual lives and and B witnessed in a way that is non-judgemental where they’re not being flooded with advice but more just being witnessed which is kind of connected to that whole framework for Rites of Passage itm witnessing each other and so it’s it’s trying to also look at how you know communities can succeed in their in their goals which might include you know like being more sustainable or being an alternative to the systems around us and also being a part of a more peaceful kind of culture through filling this hole that is often where things go wrong where people are are are not feeling safe to talk about these these human experiences around wounding around are our hearts and our sexuality so I’ve been part of a Practice Group here that has been circulating also to other parts of BC and I think it’s a really it’s a really powerful movement to be a part of yeah we’re getting close to an hour or so I have to take a few more minutes and I’m get a couple thoughts and feelings some responsible for 1 something that his is coming up for me that I think it’s really empowering is this like idea that wouldn’t it be nice if some of us started to think of ourselves as aspiring Elders I’ve never thought of it that way until this conversation and there’s a little spark of joy and me that that says you know puts in context the the punk rock lifestyle that I had of live fast Die Young and just you know if it’s not throwing yourself into the meat grinder of insurrectionary activism you know with this sort of Death Wish you know this martyr complex or whatever it’s like those are really unsustainable archetypes to follow and they leave a lot of people when they get to my age in about 35 like in a sort of existential crisis that will the revolution didn’t happen and I didn’t get killed I didn’t die in the gutter you know I mean what am I going to do now and it’s like well maybe it’s time to become an aspiring Elder and you know clean up your act and and then start to think about how you’re going to make it easier cuz I there’s a lot of things that I had to go through that I would seriously love to have no one else ever have to go through and if you know if we can live in that. you know that is what you’re supposed to think that I think of you say you know you can you can learn from the wisdom of Elders who have gone through and made the mistakes that you’re probably going to go through or you can just be hard-headed and learn all your lessons the hard way but I mean we’ve had to learn a lot of hard lessons in the absence of the eldership but I think if we take on that there’s a yeah me too. It seems obvious but really the way you put it his medicine for me to think you know it’s a dignified path to be an aspiring Elder and then it makes you not be so how do I can help you defeat that that that grinding pressure that oh my I’m going to lose my looks and I’m going to lose my energy and I’m going to be in the state of deprecation towards death and that’s very much the greatest fear of the western manicured Uno photoshopped airbrushed identity like you’re not really giving any hope that aging will be of any benefit in here just marginalized further and further so I thank you for that serve very much still give that time sacred eldership dignity not a light title to hold I think the true Elder wouldn’t really feel comfortable in it cuz it’s defining attributes of an elder that is really one that can help that role be the best it can be is one that is is really accountable is really present isn’t so on the move that if you can’t you know be relied upon to be there for the people that it serves now needs to ideally be in the in the fellowship of other Elders to kind of keep it in in in check in a way like we have to watch for the Cole group kind of phenomenon where people you know place a lot of weight on that person and in a way that can privilege them in certain ways and also lead to potential like power distortions and things like that you know it’s it’s only human that people will make mistakes and so having that kind of accountability of other people and also that time yeah you have people heart or a different there’s always like in every phase of life with the lifecycle there’s there’s like the maturing phases and so there’s like you know there’s a baby elder there’s enough adult Elder and then Senior Elder and so it’s just we have to learn at each stage of Life how to become the mature version of what that stage is and says just something to think about as well and it’s good to to get your feet wet early on in life so that you know we can have deep roots and and the and those are the kinds of people to like in the Tamara situation out of the black community they have a circle of Elders who are basically people who have grown with a community enough that they know the people in their community and then they serve a role as potential kind of like the Matchmaker but you know in a way where people can approach them in and ask them like you know I’m interested in this person and they can help you assess whether this is the right time or what is a good or bad idea and you know they can kind of that. Whole courtship in a way that you know really I think I wish there were more of those people around here don’t you let me relax you know learn the hard way what does that we’re just not compatible certain people in The Matrix the I mean yeah I’m not I’m not a political scientist of the Matrix but I will say that what got me peaked on the ecstatic trance dance group ritual ceremony festival thing was it really when I saw I think it was maybe the second movie or maybe it was the second or the third but there was a scene where they’re just getting down to like Juno Reactor I think was a soundtrack of a butt there is something beautiful about seeing the different the warrior culture Guided by elders and of course there’s different the archetypes playing out in Conflict split that to me was took it further than then the Star Trek Federation is a futuristic Elder guided Council guided kind of reality so that was kind of fun but yeah so that’s what came to mind when you’re at we’re talking about that be so cool if you’re early sexual oracle’s who you go to you know if we’re going to give you insights and maybe even have name your child for you or something cool like that you know be so cool but right on then will I worry about at the hours so do you have any closing touch you want to share or any other resources or should we just I’ll post the the links that you mention and I’ll definitely encourage people to stay informed and keep an eye out for your anything coming up you have any appearances or anything exciting like that coming up you want to mention I think yeah I think I covered a lot of it and I just wanted to maybe plant a seed while I have the airwaves here about something that I’d I’d eventually like to work on presenting which is around insert Intercultural relationships and also decolonizing our relationships as well and just thinking about how how we can heal some of these ancestral traumas and use that has as as a means to strengthen our relationships and also our society right on I’ll be looking forward to everything that you’re you’re expressing in the world and I hopefully yeah maybe sometime in the future we can talk about skill sets for Beyond Christian monogamy that would be a great topic so yeah how would you feel about that maybe we can sometime in the next few months follow up with something like that. Maybe by the by the time I’ll have more of a personal lived experience to a base conversation around that I think you know in terms of people who are already I don’t know how many listeners here are on a Christian spiritual path without that many but if the energy and gnosticism and sacred marriage not going to the alchemical top in the in the Gnostic tradition but I I wouldn’t make any claims to be an expert in that area but it’s definitely something to look at cool alright then we will be in touch and will follow up sometime in the future and thank you so much so be I really enjoyed it and I know it’s taking us a while to get this to get this done but I think it was perfect and I couldn’t ask for anything more so you have a wonderful day. Take care and keep for listening to the touch upon podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is to see me and if you want a podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been at Contra Punk. Com Thomas Day