This episode is a conversation with Mark A. Michaels (Swami Umeshanand Saraswati), an old-school east coast punk rocker who’s been initiated into a traditional tantra lineage and has been co-authoring books and teaching tantra with his beloved wife for many years.
We discuss the complementary aspects of the punk rock movement and the tantric path of consciousness expansion and personal, spiritual, and erotic empowerment.
For more information and to connect with Mark please go to:
Read his great essay on tantra and punk here: http://tantrik.blogspot.com/2007_06_01_archive.html
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin hello Jennifer Lopez welcome to Tantra Punk podcast episode 19 this is an interview with an old school Punk marc-michaels who is now a tantra instructor and author so we’re talking a lot about pumpkin Contra and how it all weaves together so hope you enjoy it non-stick welcome to the point podcast marc-michaels I’m so glad to have you here to talk about Tantra and the punk rock movement and down she want to give some background on yourself and then maybe then we can set it to some of the other house that my life has taken over the years so I first started studying country back and I think 97 and transformational experience with it pretty much right off the bat and spent the next two years or so studying with with everyone I could eventually ended up taking teacher training in a kind of more American sexualized form of Tantra and and certain aspects of that relate to resume for a well for me and sow a goddamn end at that point I met my partner up a Trisha Johnson we started looking for more traditional lineage based out of training and we found our art teacher by dr. Mumford or 20 another capella saraswoti he’s based in Sydney and he really which one of the Pioneers in bringing the sexual aspects of Tantra to the West in the mid-1970s I hear he was initiated in 76 and came back and gave a series of Seminole lectures on the subject and 77 and we will you know we’ve been his disciples now for going on fifteen years he initiated me as a Swami in 2003 and mavis’s is lineage holders that we’ve we do have a a traditional Indian traditional background her first book was based on those lectures he gave and 70 specs and it’s called the essence of Tantra sexuality reply to work backwards in a way from not stuck with a second book called time for cirrhotic empowerment which is more of a workbook and a kind of introductory introductory that our next book which is which came out in 2012 is called the Great Section 8 Simple and it’s it’s a real beginners book on top in a kind of tip format but being sting to people we are we couldn’t resist including a lot of pretty esoteric stuff in there so I didn’t even people who have a lot more experience with with the tradition you know might find some some surprising new elements in that book and finally our recent my most recent book which came out last February is a much more General kind of book called partners and passion a guide to great sex and Missy and long-term love and it’s really a relationship book that draws on our 15 years together and then all of our work teaching you know worldwide and and it’s fully informed by a background in Contra but it’s it’s not a pocketbook purse a setup a nutshell overview of the conflict side I also have a law degree from NYU and and did American Indian law for about a decade and I also have a couple of degrees in American studies graduate-level stuff so I’d background that’s certainly had a lot of more kind of academic training as a as a piece of that wow that is amazing I think you just became my personal hero and I’m standing up for everything and I’m exhausted all the books because I did a Google search I’ve been studying this field for a while but it was recently that I came across your work and and yeah I feel I feel great affinity and more and more SM can you talk so do you want to talk a bit about the role of punk rock in your life is and how that jives with all this stuff I don’t know maybe five or six years ago and I hadn’t really until that time thought about how these kind of different strands in my life of overlapping and entwined but but looking back on it and then I guess feeling a little bit alienated from some of the more new AG stuff that’s out there I I I started looking back at my my roots and pumpkin and seeing how these two things really connect and Heather are very much the same thing in a way I was I grew up in New York City in the in the 1970s and well you know early on kind of a wannabe hippie but I was twelve and not really it was in a lot of ways I was fascinated by it but I was I was too young and I think I would have things I want to say about Punk thing we’re all hippies now and looking back you know almost 40 years later I think there’s a lot of Truth in that but you know we at in that first generation of punk rockers work in reaction against what are older for the people the age of our older siblings were doing it and so there was with kind of opposition to it that we all we all Express back then but good looking back I think in many ways it hasn’t worked in a finity that I would ever have admitting in 1976 but I I discovered my my first experience with punk rock was actually it in 1975 and it was at the end of the Vietnam War concert in Central Park is a big free concert with all kinds of folk movement celebrities and was still Oaks his last last performance I Believers are very close to his last and Tom Paxton and Joan Baez been there quite a few letters but the thing that really stood out for me was a performance by Patti Smith and she did just did Hey Joe and piss Factory it’s at that concert but it was like nothing I’ve ever seen before and I was just really taken by it a little weirded out by it a little intimidated by it she talked about the connection between rock and roll and violence and you know at the end of the Vietnam War concert that was a pretty shocking thing for someone to say so I just for the file that away and then a few months later there was a front-page article in the New York Times magazine about her and it was right before horses came out and I was you know I remember having seen her I was very intrigued and I probably got the record but certainly the first pigs that she didn’t support right after the record came out with the bottom line in New York and I was 75 so I was 16 I got a friend’s older sister who was a big fan two to take me to the bottom line it was a lot easier to get into clubs back then and I we we smoked a joint in the car before the before the show by by the end of the show I was completely no longer high and we were just neither one of us could move it was so powerful and profound and I sorta got hooked after that so from there I started going to see the TVs a couple of months later and pretty much saw all of that you know the first generation of New York punk rock and and became quite devoted to the whole scene so I think we might be kind of a different generation of a punk rocker but are totally 15% cotton from looking at your your material and in your side yeah yeah definitely the lineages evolving in and it’s it’s own I think of it as you heard of the aghori to do cold getting attached I think about the absolute pronunciation of all of all kind of smashed everything sacred because it was rebelling against this is so many different levels of corruption within religion of course in and then also this type of identification with material wealth in prestige in all of the things that supposed to be smashing through to get to the heart of being and no justice in raw Primal Rage in rebellion in 10 so icy I feel through the different phases of evolution in punk rock it’s it’s reflecting that I didn’t post to shed the material and get deeper into the spiritual but there’s been a lack of guidance I think in the punk rock movement and can I feel like I’m very compelled now having gotten to Tantra to bring some of the principles and teaching into the my still very well connected to a guest role within the punk rock Community still and still being outside can musician and I still have albums coming out and I still have a role to play there is much older there’s parts of me that want to can’t move away from that move further away from it and moved more towards Consciousness and more an hour away from the alcohol abuse and the and the mosh pit and dancing in sacred geometrical forms rather than in the mosh pit which is this kind of like tomorrow said yeah I guess that agrees to do kind of kind of approach that what do you know back in there in the really early days of New York in the end I think this thing that was maybe different about that moment was there was a lot before so there was no more I mean we you know Max isn’t cbgb’s it was tables because New York has these weird laws against dancing so there was no match pets people might stand around the stage but that whole kind of thing is it’s sort of emerged out of the British the British seen and and sort of I think it’s the LA kind of Hardcore signal came along more like around 1980 or so but you know 76 77 it was a real person and really Bohemian movement but I think shared more like a lot more expensive bility than sound because you had bands is the versus television Talking Heads you know Ramones Blondie different kinds of sounds and I think that I found one of the key pieces for me as a kid was like it didn’t matter who you were you know it was like at cbgb’s you had I didn’t know if this was a Hells Angel Fire so you had like pallets Angels there and then you have you know we are kids you have you have really kind of just beer drinking Guys from Brooklyn and then you’d have like Artie people from New York and and it it was a place where any kind of Misfit with 10 and it was it was wonderful in that way I think Patty was the real in a book The toddy Smith was the real monster Talent became out of that scene and see to me was always very very consciously and her performances and there was a distinctly contract and transgressive element that side to me it sort of fell into being self-indulgent sometimes when she was on she just took you into this whole at around quitting balls going through some pretty dark and unpleasant very dark and unpleasant kinds of places to to get there and then you have a I’m fascinated by your your work with the the Native American law and did you feel like your progression from Punk into more formal activism within new advocacy type of work with that was that the directional is going from in your you’re here by illegal Korea honestly not really I I I don’t see a deep connection between those two things I think I mean a lot of my life has been about service so and that was ten years of of really doing service and you know supporting supporting a community that is not my own in really working as in service to them you know I think a lot of a lot of white people think I want to go help others that they do they they often will do it in a kind of kind of lipstick William and I felt like my job at that time was to to keep my mouth shut and listen and and learn and and make myself available and I don’t have a bunch of other things in the intervening seven or eight years between moving away from Panguitch I got kind of turned off by the scene in the in the early 80s because there was just so much so much drug abuse and I think one of the final kind of turning points for me was I had been friendly with with Johnny Thunders when I was in college and my band open Fruit for his band a couple of times and stuff for this is and I went to Michigan and he was in Ann Arbor for 4. Of time and I came back to New York and it was probably 1982-83 and I went to see, yet it was just is his addiction was consuming and at that point and and it was just depressing and I really kind of felt this since it was time for me to start moving on and getting more and more into kind of American Roots Music which you know it has it has a lot of the same sensibility and authenticity to it but I was feeling a little bit that I’d outgrown what was happening in the in the punk scene. And I was kind of during my my law school years and then I worked in theater for a while as well so we definitely have had a kind of similar fractal evolution in different ways yeah from getting into the raw Primal passion and power and spiritual dimensions of punk rock and and then getting kind of more refined into our personal spiritual practices and also her service and and I’ve gotten kind of professionally into a permaculture design and edible landscape design stuff and ecological service and restoration work and and if yeah I had this ZIP honks at the expense and kind of evolved with me in different ways and ultimately took the past Securities pass to end up in serious relationship with the Tantra tradition and trying to I understand it as fully as possible and seek lineages to work within and get beyond the surface of the type of better sex and all that obviously a good thing and it’s kind of what we’ve allowed people to that to this time I’m kind of at a point where I wanted to integrate the sidse empowerment aspect of contract with the the mission of punk and the mission of of different forms of activism and social justice and environmental justice and what I’m discovering and and have been practicing over the last several years is that there’s this has been this completely taboo and seemingly a Colts and hidden realm of power a whole dimension for a multiplicity of dimensions of power that come from being conscious and intelligent directed use of sexual energy to energize and to manifest and to heal heal and to sustain positive healthy co-creative and synergistic Human Relationships there’s all these I don’t want to say weapons but I don’t want to say tools that can be you know applied and adapted from from Tantra that can really solve a lot of problems I feel for dissolution activists and people who have for Serta bearing the wound during the wounds of the Kali Yuga as it’s called you know in the Hindu tradition in pain like I’m I’m feeling very drawn compelled to help people who are struggling with this some the reality that we live in obviously and I are going against the mainstream and then not having spiritual tools to sustain their sense of well-being and balance and to avoid the drug addiction and avoid the violence and avoid the bad and dangerous sex and the unconscious behavior and have more of that light energy falling through that Hearts face that’s coming from the disillusionment and what’s you know all the lyrics and all of the Power and rage of the punk rock movement you know a lot of it in that people just end up going getting sucked into a black hole pain and not finding something to piss like a platform of life that can help them be elevated and I feel like that’s the there’s a lot of that to be learned from personal Tantra practice and also understanding this the Deep history of it visa Vie its relationship to it’s kind of like a prescription for this this demonic Kali Yuga time that were in this is like the gifts that was designed for people to be able to hold their bearings with all this pressure to start stage kind of pressure and I’m wondering if you how you feel about that kind of strategic application for people who are activists are punks or people who are fighting in the shadow and and I’m kind of at a loss for question but enhance I mean I think that you know my own experience would have been in activism is that because you’re intent upon degree actually even with teaching and writing and traveling is that if you were really in a roll of of being serviced and working to help others if they can be very easily easy to neglect your own your own while being on your own space and so having some kind of practice I am some kind of capacity to look Inward and then recharge is essential because if you don’t have that you you will burn out very quickly so that’s that’s one piece I mean on the punt side of things I’m thinking about kind of going back to the early days the difference between the class in the sex pistols and I think people have ten to two pieces to this one is that people tend to associate like the epitome of Punk with with the sex pistols and they really were pretty nihilistic when you get down to it and and pretty much driven by rage the class really were kind of different than and then suddenly there was anger and frustration and and especially in the early material but they were much more about a vision of Love Community about a vision of a future where people treated each other differently and so I think looking back you know that that was a real Fisher within the movement I’m and unfortunately swerved you know especially seeing younger kids idolizing Sid Vicious I just kind of got disgusted because I think that’s that was sort of a perversion and away if of what it was really all about adding another piece of that pit that maybe got lost is like there’s a lot of the early New York men’s had this incredible sort of dark humor about them and I think that’s an important thing for people to keep in mind to it’s like if you can’t laugh why are you do you know and then sometimes it’s really appalling stuff but it’s one of the ways that we can help process yeah it was just an absolute Entre Workshop where one of the exercises was to look at look at various issues and and then laugh just allow yourself to laugh about it even if it was heinous stuff just getting in that space and then be able to reclaim some power around it and not be just going by the pain all the time and I’m thrilled that you have such extensive traditional training and end I think I’m God is so many ways to Define this sometimes nebulous feel that subconscious but I think I’m the one dimension that is coming up for me right now is the idea of the sort of alchemy of dissolving Polar Opposites into a swirling spiraling Union of totality that you can Embrace synonym sort of sigh of relief that you’re not being stretched into the stream positions of opposites in Union goal of the lovemaking Rachel and all that but as far as healthy a healthier way to integrate the Shadow and not just be consumed by it did you yeah if you can you talk a little bit about just your some of the differences between the the the more traditional lifelong Guru initiation Tantra cast in nn how that relates to what people are just we getting in to know about the tantric sex stuff is different about the traditional linear space is it there’s an idea of power and transmission that comes when you’re initiated by someone in and you know that is something that I’ve experienced than I’m having a level of accountability to not trust your teacher but to the whole lineage of being more grounded I think that one of the big differences is that in the in the more linear space even if you’re even if you’re instructed in the sexual aspects there’s so so so much more than 10 sexuality that is that it involves it’s it’s really an approach living and you know in our in our work with Dr Munford I mean we please pass the sexual teachings on to us but she’s never rely directly taught us anything sexual and different ways to meditate it’s really about going deep with them and see the funds contras tool for expansion and the tool is your you’re you’re not even what you’re expanding is your Consciousness and really any experience that you’re having as an opportunity to do that if you approach it with the right mindset so I think that also tends to get lost in in much of the popular stuff that’s out there that the country is not it’s not a set of sexual practices it’s not at something you do when everything is going right and you flipped handles and you know you’re having a great ritual with it with a partner it’s really about how you live your life every moment and to you as I just finished reading a book called Township have to ecstasy and it was the rule Southworth church first thing sucks is that it’s really help me get more of a deeper appreciation for the yeah they obviously the deaths in The Roots end and something very interesting that I felt it struck me immediately reading it was was this notion that the the township pass was was according to my understanding is that are my interpretation reading a book is that it is just that there was more of a type of age in the Hindu World ages they anticipated the coming of the Kali Yuga part of the cycle which was this dark demonic stage of spice and you know I want to see spend because of the baggage with that but but but but definitely this sort of pressure to succumb to the Demonic forces that that that the real it’s not like a like a cartoony hokey mythological notion of of evil in the world or demonic entities it’s is very phenomenological the way that they ate the way that they understand this influence of dark energies into the human psyche in human culture and soul lyrics tactical preparation for this age was to develop what was actually a very strip down and reduced spiritual practice to the complexity of those country was only a fraction of the totality of the spiritual path but it was just enough to hopefully help us get through this Dark Age that we’re going through and it’s it’s like telescoping in extremes of darkness and now with all those people have obviously my journey we have less and less time to practice anything spiritual to do anything in the inner Realms of a being because of all the distractions and all of the demands and all of the Stillman it’s like to the human consciousness is getting more and more male forced away from these two practices and it just seems to be fulfilling a prophecy that we’re in this really dark time and the dishes like a sort of a gift that was given to humanity to help us navigate these times and find some power imbalance and few have did that something you’ve come across this sort of a spiritual warrior path I guess I don’t know exactly how to frame into a into a question but that’s that’s where this Punk thing is the punk Anna Tantra is not just a way to experience the four more beautiful and Rich life that you know kind of the new age you think of just but it’s more it’s for me I see it I see it now more than ever is is more of a spiritual empowerment in the context of this the negativity that were in in an RN and giving us a sort of Duty to be service workers are lightworkers in and cleaning resistance you know that’s that’s the word I’m looking for a passive resistance and of resisting the temptation to fall into the darkness and also resisting by bringing light do our bodies and through our relationships to shine down the shadow of this age until we get to the next part of the cycle where it should be easier is that any of that one thing I would say is that it is definitely a path of resistance and transgression and not complying with what you know what the dominant society says want to do and I think if you go back to really there’s a book called Kiss of the Allegheny with I think it’s the best storical analysis of Tantra and he really does feel hotter is David court and white and he really talks about the origins in the in the early, narrow if it’s not a it’s a tradition is somewhat make it out to be and and the Really oppositional nature of it at that time reacting against sort of Orthodoxy in in that. And India while drawing on some very old aspects of the cultural Traditions that existed there and so it is it definitely oppositional I think that one of the things and I’m not sure this is in total agreement with what you suggested but it may be a different way of looking at it is that part of the Alchemy in Contra and end it is implicit in the symbolism of Kali is it that you you really want to dive into the darkest stuff and through that process of driving in you’ve transformed what might be perceived as as dangerous adversarial threatening to you horrifying Etc into something that’s a tool for empowering yourself and so we can’t we can’t eat a week at our Peril we ignore the darkness and we’re try to pretend that all we’re doing is dancing in the light so there is a there’s a real there is a warrior past there is a you know there is a ferocity to it and and that’s that’s that’s absolutely true instead of thinking about polarities which you know which is definitely part of the tradition but what we like to teach people is that yes there are these poles of you no energy and Consciousness if you want to call that masculine feminine time of being aware and as of tuning out and what we really want to strive for in life is being able to move along the full spectrum between those perceived polarities so that were were sort of more fully there and have more choice about how we are in the world at any given moment cool yeah that’s good thank you for entertaining these supposed to bury esoteric thoughts on the stuff in and getting more practical people which everyone has almost everyone has the specs driving and and seeks to be loved and to love and to be in a relationship and more and more things are kind of a rotating the coming just to modify the hyper teknologize modern lifestyle is making it more and more difficult for people to spend quality time together into a heel and sustain a relationship so so if you if we if you want to speak for bit about some some of your tips for staining relationships without having without being with most of us not having the ability to get to get initiated by Guru in spin really get immersed in his life path. What what are some you know handfuls of of tips and tricks that people can use to acquire this and then this is something that Patricia and I think about a lot you know because we are 21st century Americans were not 9th century Indians and then have What What In This tradition really resonates what’s applicable across cultures what’s applicable in our current situation and in the in the rituals and if the sexual rituals in ancient mantra spell Alka-Seltzer to the extent that has practice today it’s still there the sexual ritual would involve sometimes a partner who is selected at random but the record of the ritual in the end the function of the rituals that each person is dare to be in service to the other to worship the other as an embodiment of god or goddess and to facilitate the other in achieving mystical experiences through the sexual ritual so the attitude is one they’re going back to the word service again but the attitude is one in which each participant is there to be in service to the other and how does that translate into a you know 21st century relationship model well for one thing one of the reasons they picked people at random sometimes was because it’s a lot easier to worship, you don’t know then to work with someone you do because you don’t have all of the you know the baggage in The Impressions that you carry with them and so on so what we think is to carry this idea from the sexual into all aspects of your relationship you know and that’s why they are monogamous Holly configuration or whatever to bring this out of reverence and service into your interactions course it has to be mutually agreed upon him in any relationship because it’s only one person is doing it at that type of service and reference into all of urine tract have it in the back of your mind even when you’re having you know an argument or something it can be really transformational and I think I’d the concept of reverence is something that across-the-board we are losing and losing fast in this you know in this culture everything’s disposable you know it’s obvious and how people are really Cavalier and you know and how they they treat the planet and how they treat each other and so it’s a it’s really a radical thing to do to try to live with Reverend you don’t have to have any belief system to do that either I think that’s really important it’s not about you know a belief in a day Eddie it’s it’s really an attitude of being in the world I don’t know one of the great things about Tantra is that you know it’s it’s belief is really secondary I mean if you want to believe in in the sense that the chakras are real that’s even talk to your real that’s perfectly fine but you can also just see them as as symbolic you can see them as metaphor you can see the chakras as a kind of tool for visualizing your internal energetic world you don’t have to accept them is physically real so it’s a pain it’s not about what you believe it’s not really doing what what work experience and your other question which is the Kundalini experience I think is something that I feel portable a good part of my activism is six six sexual health education and holistic special education that gives people switch that mean I guess I just kind of framing this begin within the context is wow do you know with it. She was created by people who had who had an easier time having more having such a deep and enrich spiritual life where they really designed human culture to be in right alignment with nature and were we’re just hygienic spiritually so that there wasn’t so much pathology and so much just fragmentation and social disease and if they had more blessed than more intimacy with the Divine and intimacy with each other and that was you know this experience I can only imagine what it would be like having grown up in this reality of absolute materialism absolute schizophrenia about sexuality and all these things that a disorder and then so the country was with that was supposed to be a help us get through this time and then now we’re in a time where it’s even we have even less time and so the special like this hand stretch out stretching to us in the present moment of of these gifts of wisdom and in and so really it is more and more buried and I’m scared even presents to know her tour like you’re saying reference for things just kind of like not even cool it’s like what are you doing aren’t you shouldn’t you be texting somebody or ridiculing something in the moving on to the next internet meme or the next tweet or something just completely orwellian and it’s reduction of the complexity of experience that was a long a long practice to something I think is maybe want maybe will only be able to train this generation to potentially have ejaculation control and that would be as far as the eye that would be a huge Great Leap out of this Dark Realm that were in so that they can be more percent better serving in being better service to their love-making Partners if they can last longer because they do this press and energy circulation in and they can have multiple orgasms for continuous longer-lasting orgasmic wavespace and that’s one of the I guess the the gift of it and then another thing is is I like I would love to see people in modernity discover Tantra and then instead of having this idea of fucking and getting laid and getting lucky they’re having this idea of how who am I going to find a co-creative magical a synergistic co-creative magical manifestation partner with who will who will Who will sit with me and be present and we’re going to stir up the Kundalini Shakti energy and have it on coil so that we know I stopped into these other Realms so fast airplane I think those if men can and can learn how to control ejaculation and the and a cursory knowledge of the chakra system can be can be instilled and then this yearning to 2 to invite in the show me Shakti energy if that could be known about I’m feeling very compelled to try to get people aware of that potential so that it’s not just getting off and ejaculating in conquering someone’s body and leaving them with cab fare which is you know sadly and then all the horrible porn that people are addicted to end the violence and the domination that’s being propagated through that so yeah do you have any tips for male ejaculation control and the Kundalini experience in any any would say that in my view in it in our training at the issue of of ejaculation is is not quite so important and in fact if you go back to the early rituals that was Central to the to the entire ritual so just a big caveat up front on this and I think that the idea of control is is a bit of a pitfall to because I’ve seen it happen where it just becomes another vehicle for sort of machismo so what what I was taught to think about was more regulation and control I like that word better yet so that’s one piece of that I think the other piece of it the purpose of non ejaculatory taxes as I see it is it’s a learning tool it’s a way to learn to separate the orgasm from the station from your chocolate or a response and once you’ve learned that and you can sort of you have freedom to play around with it and and explore a much broader range forecast my possibilities what I would say is that in our culture people who are born grow up and identify as male have not had the opportunity to explore sexuality in the way that at least some women have you know there’s a whole kind of Betty Dodson movement of self pleasuring with awareness and and as a tool for expanding Consciousness but if you’re if you’re if you have a penis in your and you’ve grown up mail and you have the feedback loop of erection ejaculation you know NM think that’s exactly a shin and orgasm at the same thing it’s really easy to just get stuck in that loop with limits your your possibilities and it’s so there hasn’t been an equivalent of daddy. Sindhu for a first-rate man there has been a bit more in the gay community with Body Electric and Joe Kramer and then that whole aspect of things but if you have a brother is kind of a typical straight American guy you got a very limited understanding of sex quality handyman and sexual self-exploration is something basically like you don’t do because it’s all there right in front of you so more than ejaculating and not ejaculating free much more Consciousness and awareness to two male sexuality and I’m getting out of the kind of hyper-masculine mindset that much younger man I mean not long ago we had a couple of conversation with women in their 20s about this and a book launch at our current title at a local restaurant in one of the wait staff said how I really like to bring home to my boyfriend but if I did he’d be insulted and that was kind of at once through shocking and and sad because I think guys are socialized to think I’ve got a know-it-all and if anybody suggest that I need to learn anything why we’ve heard this from much older man as well I don’t need your book I know it all maybe you don’t need your feet are both but you know maybe maybe our bucks would be really helpful and give you some new new new possibilities and then these things to explore the socialization is so strong that you can’t allow that but I think you know men by larger really really confined by the demands of what it means Cena what culture says it means to be masculine as a musician I study the music industry and I I don’t do no I don’t I can’t say I don’t fantasize about having let’s say personally I think it be possible for me to have could just have a bit of influence if your music career and but I look at the real rock gods and the real people who are defining Global masculinity for young men today are the the pop stars you know there’s a real Shaman says it’s better that the shortest Blackmagic shamans and fortunately I mean I guess I shouldn’t I’ve heard of people paid if you if you’re not healing people and you doing Blackmagic on you a little longer a shaman is a shaman healer but let’s just stay at in their cauldron of patriarchal sexual dominating violence they’re basically shaping the attitudes for all men in the end it would just be the goal that I have would be to somebody if it’s not me who has the mic on the stage if I at least I could be rubbing off on people in those industry in the higher level of Industry to to create Reverend stickler around the love making you know staying in and I mean can you just imagine if some of these these icons were were making videos that were showing the real way to worship the Beloved as a goddess and that would be a nice thing with the with the Kundalini Shakti experience thing I feel like that’s the proof in the pudding and that’s the way the sort of shocking wake-up call this is Alexis electrical energy this powerful surge of energy is what kind of spiritual and religious Traditions have a hard time I think really authentically delivering a repeatable mystical experience the Kundalini experience which requires some procedure to access some people have it spontaneously out of nowhere and I have what what is a clinical psychologist call Kundalini syndrome which can if you know people can snap their neck people can have disordered Minds face and dizziness and all kinds of negative still at serious side effects from from premature Kundalini sort of experiences and so on the one hand I’m staying to myself this is the vicious human sexuality 2.0 everyone’s getting into I mean in the midst of all this toxic pouring I’ll let you know if I’ll inform there is also the sexy people who are who are giving people tools for more pleasure and stuff but the real Mex Mex level is when humans win Global Humanity as can if I the internet understand that there is this natural phenomenon this sort of force of nature that the Kim to the Holy Ghost this experience of move something is here and it is not what I considered to be me and it’s not like you’re considered to be you and it is this massive Niagara of energy that’s tangible flowing through a systems in how do you know we have to that that’s kind of like the the real money shot the real the real thing to do to speak to a team and it’s been in it doesn’t require Decades of worship at the feet of a guru to access it really can be accessed being a sub for a minute and then there’s the whole fire-breathing Jedi Knight orgasm using the force to induce these full body orgasmic waves and that’s like another parlor trick of times it is coming out butt I’m so I’m feeling like I’m going to be an evangelist of of Awakening Kundalini and that’s going to have people go okay while we’ve been stoled a real a real week you’re the sort of them we’ve been scammed with what we’ve been taught sexuality than this is a way to start to open up to its being way more bass in this potential and but there is this element of danger with it so I’m wondering and you were training what do you have warnings advise anyting medical spiritual in our tradition the ideas that Kundalini has really acted in in us all the time and what the practices are about is really about bringing awareness to them to the energy and so it’s sort of a different model from The Awakening kind of idea and I will say I had a pretty much spontaneous Awakening myself which fortunately I kind of was informed about what it was and therefore was able to manage should I also was done a lot of therapy before so I knew myself pretty well I think what happens often when people have these experiences is that they don’t have a framework in which to put it and then and not causes them to freak out psychotic break is this ultimately leading to Greater integration or not practice is about creating a container in which that energy can be managed in and worked with me that’s not the only point but it’s one of the points and if it’s why there’s you know in many Traditions there is a years and years of study and practice before before you get into the really intense energy moving stuff so if you have the Awakening type experience prematurely I think they’re kind of the three potential potential negative outcomes one is that it is actually some kind of episode of mental illness in the end and in that case you really need to seek help right away the other is that you don’t have you don’t you haven’t developed the container or you’re not in a contact swear where you understand enough to be able to make the most of it or you just have it and go home from the weekend and and don’t do anything with it so what what’s important is that there be some kind of foundation laid before before people start going for the big the big energy movements I think it’s a pitfall 2 of the kind of Workshop culture that we have in in the society that you know you go to a weekend workshop and you have a peak experience and you go home and then a lot of people I think don’t have a way to integrate Peak experience into their own lives or don’t have a way to make it happen for themselves when they want to so it just meant it’s like okay me to spend more money on Workshop yeah that’s it that’s that’s an interesting I have a sick kind of semi always saves you really think that original Karate was designed to be taught you know a couple hours a week so that you get your black belt and move on and smell these were people that this was it a life not and not just a lifestyle either it was an absolutely fully encompassing religious spiritual physical everything past 7 and I’m still again we’re just in the fragmented reality so much and inspect experience that makes you feel like you you’re your actual body is that you can sense the perimeter of your body being several many times larger than what you’re used to and then you have to go back into a cubicle on Monday work through this has been studying it I feel like what seems to be happening is the people that have the real discombobulated and kind of dramatic and and painful and disorienting experiences of the first ones they have I get to way that I’ve heard described that this if you haven’t opened your valves and been conditioned the noughties you know the electrical current in Turkey chakra interconnecting kind of circuitry if you haven’t cleanse those and condition them and widen them and dilated them so that’s the pressure fire hose for a fire hydrant kind of pressure If you’re trying to connect your kitchen sink to a fire hydrant dilating and expanding and then you become more of me like you’re saying it’s it’s always there and then you can be with it on a regular and uneven a constant basis and a night for me I feel like dancing is a huge part of are you guys people dance your way into the bedroom into the lovemaking ritual and then you will have and then massage you know if you can massage in dance in a pyramid that leads to sexual unions then you’re going to have really really prepared and dilated all those subtle energy Pathways to be able to receive more and more and then take it all the way and then of course all the emotional blockages that people have if this is this make it’s this fire of purification where you can actually burn off lifetime is of karma if you have your really gnarled up inside with all these emotional knots and this thing is just going to rip through it all it’s going to be Carnage I feel like is the Kundalini if you were to take aerial shots you know if they’re punks in the mosh pit doing a circle pit in there that is weaving into this higher-dimensional communal Synergy space I do feel I’m pretty much at the end of my my thoughts here so I’ll leave it with that the triumphs of the Kundalini Circle pit did not contact when that energy is moving well and it’s not really you know gratuitously violent there is just incredible sort of ebb and flow and weaving that’s going on it among the people and I think that that’s weird that’s the kind of collective ecstasy that you get in kirtan as well and it in a different kind of format and and it’s all about that sort of transcending the limits of your your own self and feeling a connection outside you know the word yoga means Union so it’s it’s a different form but it’s it’s all about that beautiful yes in a little more I just sit here thinking imagining it is I’ve seen absolute Supernatural miraculous Feats of super male aggressive violent venue seat quite amazing Miracles that it break laws of physics happening at is the Kundalini Shakti thing going on so much do you want to give your websites or any leaves for people to follow and I’m definitely going to be pulling up in and checking out your stuff and getting into a really appreciate everything he isn’t Patricia Emma Emma cinemark.com Tantra pm.com and people can find our books and we’ve got a couple of instructional films in a meditation CD as well so I can find out all about all that stuff on our site all right thank you so much now I Stay America 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