In this episode I’m joined by my revered permaculture teacher and issuer of my permaculture design certificate. To protect his identity and allow him appropriate distance from the extreme edginess (permies will laugh) of my current path, he’s taken on a sci fi pseudonym. We discuss the origin story of our epic collaborative brother-from-another-motherhood. We bonded instantly many years ago over our mutual love of nature, science, diy tech, radical activism, the punk politics of resistance, and the unmatched sophistication of subversiveness to be found in the permaculture design movement.
At the time our paths crossed, I had been exposed to permaculture for about 10 years, but only within the year previous to our meeting in the late 2000s had I become seriously engaged in study of the design science. He appeared in my life at the best of all times for me to appreciate his insights and accomplishments. I put my best efforts into earning his respect and approval as a budding permaculturalist. As per the original intent of the founders of permaculture, certified designers are encouraged to develop a mastery of the system in order to embolden them to create their own certification course curriculum with adherence to the fundamental contents and structure of the original permaculture design course. I was blessed to establish a barter relationship with him so that I had an extended mentorship which included and transcended the standard PDC curriculum with more oversight and technical support than would be normally accessible in a traditional 72 hour course. My one-on-one training took place over the course of about a year and a half. He provided guidance through my designs spanning apartment scale gardens, to a warehouse parking lot edible park installation, to semi-rural farmstead, and various business and community projects in between.
The intent of our discussion in this episode beyond reminiscing on the past, was to establish the integrity of the lineage of my training, and once again seek approve for one of my designs, in this case, the design of my customized permaculture design course curriculum, an adaptation of the way he provided the course for me.
To be expected, I integrate elements of eco and sacred sexuality with tasteful aesthetics and scientific maturity, he provides his feedback and ultimate approval. We share a sense of deep honoring for the irrepressible hacker mindset of the co-founder Bill Mollison. We dare to presume he’d be proud of my attempts to design for the sector of sexual energy, which without a doubt is the most powerful, yet least valued and most poorly managed energy flow pattern in sustainable human settlement design and engineering.
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin eligible events Wall, Township on podcast episode number 2089 being joined by Paul Atreides who is the mysterious figure who has played a very important role in my my personal development as a permaculture a designer’s he is the man who I would say provided for me a one-on-one very intensive long-term permaculture training that resulted in me having the confidence in me to issue me the coveted permaculture design certificate which is a 2 to display to the world saying that one has completed the 72-hour minimum course curriculum to be then qualified to operate commercially using the word permaculture according to the guidelines laid out by the the co-founder Bill Mollison many years ago that the late great Bill Mollison and so for those who are not familiar with the term permaculture we’ll get into that a bit but it’s it’s part of how I promote my work as a permaculture designer and Tantra accounts that help people grow spiritually sexually and ecologically and I really feel that I’ve been able to bring a permaculture perspective to a lot of the healing modalities that are out there that sort of what’s often considered woo and new age and energy work and all that you know really bringing a grounded earth science perspective to my work and and all that really comes literally thanks to this man here who for various reasons we’re going to keep his his true identity obscured but we’ll just kind of get into what I what I intend to do is is take this topic of Tanks hacking permaculture to tell both of our stories about how we became radicalized through the punk rock movement and got into college activism and in basically at some point discovered the glory of the permaculture design system and then put our hacker Minds to work to figure out how to count of Avail ourselves of more open source content and actually start to open source permaculture that was its original intention anyway so it was supposed to be resistant to proprietary mechanisms resistant to Academia and but also conducive to people’s right livelihood and conducive to successful businesses and all of that is encoded into the prime directive in the ethics but you know something I’ve come to to know and love and I have grapes with certain aspects of how the movement has evolved then we’re going to talk a bit about our feelings are true feelings about about that stuff too so this is hopefully just going to be a a primer on what what the punk attitude how the punk attitude approaches the permaculture design system and how both of us are working and there are various ways to to really further further the the objectives that that we’ve been working towards for so long using this technology so with all that said call please share what you would like to do about your journey discovering permaculture where you what you’ve accomplished with it within your boundaries of of secrecy about your you know personal details and in time place and manner but maybe some of your accomplishments and and certainly how you’re feeling about the movement today and then we’ll go from there yeah I think you mentioned in any little bit more time and you conversation were now was the creation and Company drive for college activism and full and total Embrace of the Bay Area radical Anarchist activist movement or late night into the early 2000s and there was an awful lot of activities going on that were crime initiate and instigate and inspire people like being in myself to further educate ourselves and look into interesting things about ecology and direct action and art and we can put on different lenses and and look at landscape in different ways and throughout those experiences and Inspirations and I was introduced to the idea permaculture alongside with the writings of philosophical take on natural farming we’re just of enormous impact in my view of the world and my desire to a brave nature and and push a naturalistic approach to rewilding or not necessarily rewilding but even gardening in harmony I’ll take a moment to push this back to YouTube and and and see if anything that I just mentioned kind of jumped out at you and there’s a point that we should send out a little bit more and me and the sky oh yeah I think if we’re going on a certain timeline maybe we could talk about just the from a Terence McKenna perspective there’s this like a Creo time-wave coiling of of of of history repeating where I would say the the anti-globalization movement was a sort of unfortunately not as maybe right maybe it was maybe it wasn’t but it certainly was like the closest thing to a Berkeley 60s movement that had there has been since 9/11 and like we both had that experience of a major boost in that belief that we were part of something timely that we were part of a revolution that we could like almost snap our fingers and topple the entire global system of you know the power elite and that we had you know we had the numbers we had the intelligence and but it also wasn’t sustainable in failed and numerous ways and I’m wondering if I have for you if you want to talk about how the the deeper timelines that permaculture opens up those intergenerational timelines of Earth repair and stewardship you know how that reconciled for you because I fucking burnt out after that yeah that’s that’s really interesting point in the in the 90s to be a more powerful experience than being in Seattle in November 1999 Seattle protest with kind of AA Earth shattering experience if you will or a young eco-activist it was like it was happening it would happen and things were going and you’re absolutely right it’s there seems to be a pressure on on the world bad things were going to change and things were going to be different because it’s people power couple of things to my timeline changed shortly after that I finished calling and the role that I felt I had so much agency in campus activism and so looking for other avenues to exercise the distance our inspiration art, culture whatever you want to call it I was able to hunt down experiences I’m on farm and odd jobs and several International permaculture experiences in putting a PDT in Central America and Pacific in Central America as well my in an ecological framework for you in the latter part of 1000 seconds. Mutual previous experiences with and later drive toward permaculture are an expedition and restoration really drove by a friendship and and collaboration that I know you personally took some major inspiration from and took the opportunity in having a relationship with me through really dive into permaculture stuff and and build York as he did mention time to talk about that yeah I would yet not to reveal anything about you know the the circumstances but it was all of my best efforts to create a sort of lightning rod you know Lighthouse effect of green Consciousness into the punk rock movement like this was still internet was not that sophisticated around the mid-2000s but it was sophisticated enough to wear if I recall you were you would found my old website and where I was doing a lot of you know community outreach doing different projects in the you know I miss SoCal area and and Beyond and just kind of really really trying to find the punks who were not born to die in the gutter like the discharge song in that were actually like figuring out how to reclaim the lost his penis that we that we lost when we when we threw out all the tie dye and you know it’s it landed for some people you know we were able to maintain a certain you know edgy vibin aesthetic but also get you no punks into Gardens and it was you know to me at that time I was you know in my mid-twenties I was trying to create the infrastructure for a healthy ecological Punk hood that I didn’t have when I was a teenager and so it’s always that idea of like living vicariously through through the Next Generation if you can to like kind of fuel yourself from the wounds that you were that you were a mistakes you made it or not so I built this organization and and it was bringing in like lots of of it was really effective at at resonating with people at in finding him so you would come into that. Medium and and that sort of modality tunnel and and at that time I was ya like you said very enthusiastic and charge to two how to get my head wrapped around permaculture and get get to doing it like there’s so many practical modules of experience that you want to have once you start to learn about it and you just want to be like guess I can check that off I have experience doing this and that and that Matt and I kind of cleaned from you when we had started creating a sort of time banking sort of relationship to exchange value and and you were basically my consultant on retainer and I would have your input and an oversight over my very very humble and very microscale to begin with no permaculture designs and you were Supply me with seeds Doc and worms and all of the starter kit stuff as well as the very Advanced and high-level intelligence and and pattern thinking and all of that the more just a more advanced find a Specs on top of the the Practical stuff and the actual cuttings from New Zealand spinach you know it’s like if you haven’t had somebody give you a cutting from New Zealand spinach then basically go home cuz you haven’t even started doing okay you know what it’s like those of those moments where you realize holyshit what what can’t you propagate vegetatively you know now I want to know where I can just go to the local you know Mexican food forest garden in in in like oh and trim things coming out of the defenses and and just stick them in pots and see what sprouts and then end up having grapefruit grape Vines and passion fruits you know choking you to death and all that fun stuff so I mean that’s what comes to mind thinking about how you were able to sort of get me set in motion and in and that was a good I don’t know you’re maybe couple years of pretty much ya me really a greeting from you everything and anything that I could end and I think Dad we’re just we were just figuring out how to kind of hack the LA landscape and the SoCal Landscaping literally hacking off cuttings of things in literally knowing how to spot a legume Tree in a Home Depot parking lot. yeah absolutely it’s a practice in observation of your surroundings and pattern recognition to actually realize what resources you have there I think what you had set up for your website with was very compelling in in several senses as I will keep spinning back to the to the Punk theme but so many aspects of the little punk eco-activist literature in underground DIY magazines from existence do inside products to anything produced by crimefeed or Slug and lettuce there was just such a a vivid body of riding of people doing things other places in the country where if she needs easier to grab Squat and start propagating 606 resor to get something going east coast remember vividly remember reading I think it was where people were you know pack keep moss and Kudzu seeds and and bombing freeway on-ramp and overpass areas just to Rebecca Tate in a create Wildlife Corridor so do you need an inspiring and your connection with the with a puncture unity and what you were trying to create with your organization was an excellent way to connect with something like that and he said I was able to help you out bring you inspiring little super easy things like I need healing spinach cuttings or starter just an interesting thing that can happen when people have inspiration and some passion and even just a little bit of awareness of what they can do to try and get things going yeah man as you say that I’m thinking about all of the places that that tiny little bag of worms propagated to to out so many different people who were who were got that is like at a supply and and they live on to this day and then like they’re the happiest worms that ever lived you know a safe and well taken care of night that’s what’s so beautiful is like you just you get in alignment with I think you know one of your favorite sayings back in the day was and you can probably fill them you know the gap of of where you heard it from but life creates the conditions conducive to more life and that’s kind of like a you know if I see it like a Zen meditation calling you know you can really take that to the fucking bank unit I will jump in real quick and and attribution to that phrase and sentiment and that is teaching from Janine benyus and the organization that is doing absolutely beautiful work to inspire engineers and designers to draw inspiration from nature as well as generate reason to preserve nature and wild men and sacred leave Revere what and it’s all good I think it’s just a distinctly and beautifully captured in an utterance like life created conditions conducive to more life and that’s just totally beautiful you can meditate on that for years and enjoy wear those. And meditation on tell me what was the name of the organization again I got you said Janine Vina Jack Janine Pena venue and they would certainly be easily found with some Google cool alright so with all that said for people who have not discovered much about permaculture I think it would be good idea to episode and I’ll put a link in the show notes in fact I will I will tell I can tell you in just a second which episode it was right now one second it is it is episode number 114 where I did intro to permaculture in ecological design and that was just a a mini-lecture that I gave in a backyard permaculture site that I was working on it was also a budding goddess Temple of swords and and so in that episode you can get more of Amore fully developed introduction to permaculture experience on this podcast but it would be great to just for the sake of this one bring it back to you in your own words as a student like for you to be a student Bill Mollison is like studying Jeep Commando with someone with the you know Dan inosanto and end with Bruce Lee sensitive like a lineage to the source that I appreciate as well and I think you know it’s kind of I don’t know what to say straight but but they’ve adapted the permaculture design course in ways that I think are great it’s appropriate for it to be adapted but there is something to say I guess I should say if you’re up permaculture designer there’s enough Bill Mollison material out there in enough sort of ripped PVC audio and video files out there that that you should know what the source of the original course how that was you know the the structure of how this information was shared by him so I guess I would say it’s if it’s valuable for me to hear you say now especially now years later from your Beginnings in my Beginnings like if you’re asked to introduce this subject to people what’s your elevator pitch for it for permaculture okay I can’t give Justice with an elephant in the elevator pitch is the marriage of the idea that permanent NP sustained through culture so culture does not have to degrade nature Mall smart energy usage can be put toward building resilient Landscapes and cultures that have the ability to become richer and more stable over time that you did it. You nailed it now you can go a feel free for that what I call the stuck in the elevator pitch where you get to just go off and stuff with me so you know Paul Atreides and his words can kill cell would love to have the cloak of anonymity for for certain aspects of things that I could stay right right now Genesis of a permaculture as a marketing started with with Bill Moulton and call Bill Morrison from experiment but really good at marketing and people like you and I with so many brilliant ideas that we couldn’t stop thinking about it it seems so that you know and normally is satisfied disaffected 20 some year old would probably most likely be playing video game chose to read something like a 10 pounds text book about pattern languages and trees and climate and climate tropes and and I don’t know if some other topics from the manual back out there they caught your attention that you spent hours reading on bed yeah for me I see the chapter 14 stuff about the some of the more social I mean obviously I loved all of the ecological stuff but when it got to the the chapter 14 material all about how we can actually hack and re-engineer our social and economic Dynamics to share abundance and to really I mean you know I mean how many how many punk shows did I preach at to the crowd and every half the people were blacked out there was unconscious on consensual basically off all forms of rape all forms of violence all forms of just complete debauchery and just I mean so the and then and then suppose that two is like super hyper leftist socialist organizations that would be a protest and I’m like well they seem like they’ve got people kind of like saluting this ideology and they said somewhat more organized and they get more shit done but then it’s like I got this authoritarian by band and I didn’t see and then you have people like maybe the the hippies and the Rastafarians in Arab super into the Dow of the soil and there’s snow raising their joint to their third eye and they’re super cool looking up at the sky gazing with you know what their eyes closed looking to sign of my I wanted a little bit of all of that I wanted a bit if I discipline my bit of order you know a bit of debauchery and Chaos a bit of Eco spirituality and the social permaculture aspects that the things that got me most thrilled on top of all the ecological stuff which I love and I’m super into the missive of hacking all of these different Gifts of no way they would call ecological Services you know any ecology textbook and improvement course you weren’t just learn to think like MacGyver you know I mean if you like the ATM you like MacGyver and you like to solve problems and build things that were the super elegant but super crafty DIY Contraptions and get all of these amazing functions out of out of this elegant designs like that that really like the practical application turn me on so much but the thing that turn me on the most was definitely this is sense that there is a pathway for word that is is going to steal me from all my cynicism about human about someone called human nature but it’s just like the what felt like an impossible task of like bootstrapping a revolutionary movement everything in chapter 14 and everything about how we can build these these harmonious guilds and treat human human cultural design like a garden and really bring out people’s know what the bare minimum sort of professional development is needed to have like I’ve never seen that really mapped out before like Yeah so basically you you would motivate these different peoples that you have like a bare minimum kind of survival pod you know that you could take this to any environment and the way that it just was this growing mandala that was the most impressive thing to me that that would that all been thawed out and so being able to design the resilient communities in and having Financial awareness and legal awareness 10 but also having him so much of the financial and legal awareness to know about things like protecting your risk Ventures by relinquishing them into a non-profit not just as a tax shelter but to protect yourself from the bad guys and the court like you want to fight corporate rule you have to basically, she put them in the capitalist Marketplace but then protect your intellectual property your land your equipment your seeds that may be competing with Monsanto or whatever and you have to basically use Jedi Mind Tricks against the status quo to protect yourself and just that sophistication of subversive like I’ve never seen anything on that level of sophistication when it comes to being a subversive it’s like this isn’t breaking Windows this isn’t lighting should on fire this isn’t fucking even protesting this is like you says in in grave danger of falling food you know he wasn’t going to say in the forest but almost wasn’t going to just stay in the forest disgusted with Humanity after the 60s he was going to fight back with positivism and not let the bastards roll over everything and he fucking sat there and he absorbed the intelligence of the Fleming also the food for a semi so I always say two things does the aha moment of the food forest and the the Tactical strategic financial and political subversion of chapter 14 if that if that sums it up awesome permaculture MacGyver moment if you will fill I spent some quite a bit of time in the tropics permaculture stuff and some of the forefathers dad got their original training from Bill Mollison in the very very early days who were it’s the Wizards the Elders of Agriculture had an awesome story and and the guy removed and strategies and tactics that are kind of ninja like in and you know it illegal permaculture syncing really affect you and you want to bring it over so you want all of your options you can possibly have with with Steve and Diane wood or fruit growing in and developing diapers food for everything really try till Sunday characters awesome stories about and surrounding trees that they wanted to bring into their country but of course you know there’s and they’re happy to be so many interesting people develop new varieties in Hawaii there were several stories about how the perfect sign wood trimming and fit inside of a snorkel and nobody would ever suspect agricultural Contraband coming through inside of a snorkel case in your graphing techniques it’s very possible to bring in a snorkels worth of the fruit tree that you want to develop and 20 years later you’ve got a genetic stop there that you can share with your community or develop into your own Orchard or maybe it’s going to feel who know if you’ve got amazing MacGyver mentalities doing cool thing with Biology to make their dreams happen and that’s inspiring DIY right for sure for sure and I guess so maybe now we can talk a bit about the the more computer hackers having his stuff like for me you know I was I’m code a little late for the most part I’m good I can cut and paste code you know I can read a little bit but not much and I pretty much rely on the the cyberguy gods above me but I’ve always found ways to I’ve always known crew to ask questions to and who to befriend you know in a symbiotic and not parasitic way hopefully for the most part but I can just go through the chapters of my life knowing like if you’re a revolutionary and you don’t have a geek in your squad like you’re just forget about it you know not not in the modern world like you need to have somebody to help you with that so I’ve always had you know kind of a assassination and and and a love of those who really understood the inner workings of cyberspace more than I did and whatnot in Uno which is kind of like dabble here and there but I’ve used you know I’ve built websites I’ve run and ministered e-commerce and you know I’ve had to just learn whatever I had to learn to do the thing that I wanted to do but I wasn’t like a generalist them in computer science or math anything like that and I certainly a late bloomer to crypto but one of the things that was floating around the internet and are in our era was this thing called the permaculture party pack which was this cycle somebody did the work of compiling this ridiculously absurd compilation of obscure and NM just totally mind-blowing permaculture and otherwise agricultural sustainable teaching tools and and that was just floating around the radical underground for quite a while and probably yeah but I still out there I don’t you know I think that the times have changed a little bit but what I like to talk about is that what you and I are agreed upon at a certain point was that after I had done essentially a number of projects in the number of scales at a number of sites and was starting to I guess get past my get a few you know a few belts an endermite in a few karate belts from the dojo so to speak now and then to go for that black belt of being a certified designer if you want to call it that obvious lyrics degrees beyond that but I wanted to feel like I wanted to have more confidence as a as it as you know at least there a junior-level instructor and I wanted to have more confidence to do workshops in Tofino start to Branch out and and and taking more of a leadership role within you know my community and the larger community and actually build a career doing what I now love to be doing which is all this fun stuff and so we decided that the and I pitched and I’m like well if the if the canonical tagari release of the 72-hour course with Bill Mollison in Geoff Lawton. I believe it Melbourne University I believe somewhere in Australia there was that digitized that what that time it was like I mean it would take however long for people to download that file bit to download that party pack but in that party pack there was that collection of those DVDs which I went ahead later and purchased the legit package of it so that I could feel confident that I had that there was at least one licensed copy in my in my possession so that I wouldn’t be standing upon you know a a a sort of pirated body of knowledge but basically Meep same to you okay look you know I don’t have the money to go off to a permaculture farm and give them two or three grand and take the time off of work to go do that you know I don’t I could I could do the more accessible version of like the local out two weekends a month or one weekend a month thing but also I just don’t have the the capital for it’s still just like a starving artist bunker you know just like not not having that manifest met abundance so so really the hacker mentality and both of us kind of I would say led to this understanding the berries that they’re there is a demand for people who want to take the course and be certified and do this right but there needs to be a more or pants or Sam or at your own pace and more accessible to low-income folks way of approaching is so I took the time myself to watch all of the take notes on and watch all of the course DVD set basically a digitized version of that which was the 72-hour course and then lead the permaculture a designer’s manual cover to cover and have done my design practicum which was all of the projects you had you know supervise me doing over the course of our that long that was a year or more and then we decided that the talent show that out there the requisite of a talent show was Satisfied by you coming to go see my pump down once that was that and then from that point you gave me that seal of approval printing me a certificate and and I I did the research to know and I have citations and quotes of Geoff Lawton saying things to be effective basically in the the spirit of it in the beginnings and you know that I sent you there was like it was basically a Each one teach one kind of approach like if you took the course it would behoove you to master the curriculum enough to be able to go out and teach your own course in the end you know there’s there is some guidance around getting a diploma and nervous but there was lacking infrastructure and then obviously a Changing of the Guard with Moses and passing and and Lawton taking over and now the PRI thing there was a battle the feud between the permaculture Institute in New Mexico and the Permaculture Research Institute and luckily nothing too ugly in terms of like Court battles over you know the trademark or anything but it’s been pretty much the wild west and was kind of like a the industry will sort itself out if your reputable teacher and people like what you do and you know people see that you’re your designs actually work then you will have a sort of natural laissez-faire kind of libertarian approach to who gets to own this title and you know we we took on me I took that and ran with it and I said okay I’m going to do this sort of open-source versioning of a of a PDC and we know we got that Goin and then what that ultimately led to was at the height and peak of my having taken that PVC and run with it is that I made arrangements with the at the time this was Circa 2013 and I was in a location where I had Urban semi-rural small-scale over 10 acres of of a canvas to play with him and I had developed a canvas over the course of about a year and installed the the worm compost in multiple ponds and multiple kitchen Gardens and a food Forest you know a fledgling Food Forest and there was the zone that is so Nation theory of putting multiple concentric circles of different areas of interaction based on how often you going to need to use them. Just in a nutshell I’m going to say that to throw it out there for people that permaculture Zone Theory and basically I I was doing things by the book and I wanted to create a permaculture Training Center where world class instructors could come there and based on the infrastructure that I had installed they would be able to teach their flavor of permaculture and that was tested when we brought the war and brush who is still one of my ultimate favorite permaculture a designer’s because of his spiritual spirituality and his work with indigenous people around the world and and his storytelling and he’s definitely and he did he did the design for Amma the hugging in a so the Tantra he is to me the fucking time should permaculturist par exsalonce cuz he took the design for almost Center and I was there at Quail Springs when he was working on it and you showed me that a time so that I’m not fucking dropping names right now I had him out there chords for weekend and for me that was like the the real ribbon-cutting on the value of the work you had done to train me and to facilitate me and guide me like if he can come out there and he can you know look at this this design on this property and he can teach from it then I know I’m you know I’m on the right path and that that gave me the confidence from that point to reach out to managing director of The Pri USA and invite him over to that site and Pitch to him that he authorized me to have the authority to replicate the PDC format basically that you and I did which is that you know you should have asked you should be able to be you know given access to the the tagari canonical bilmos Geoff Lawton DVD set if we purchase a license for it and we have it available for folks that that should be you know something to do Explorer and and to potentially approval obviously there’s probably more intricate licensing that that could and should be done but at least the concept was there for me to share with him and the idea that a senior permaculture designer could come in and basically a couple times a year take a batch of students who had gone through that DVD course and who had done work on that property you took basically as they’re going to the course they’re actually okay so now you do a course module now you go out to the property where there are Works in progress of the different modules of the different functional parts of the design whether it’s like repairing the chicken factory or extending the moving some material around a building at a thermophilic compost whatever it is is all of those things are are are just in the flow influx happening on the property so you should be able to do the the in the classroom study material and then go out on the land and do the Practical aspect of it build the skills and develop the skill sets and then also have access to the designer’s manual which now if I do it if I do it now I’m going to say we’d have the students read the introduction to permaculture ebook rather than the designer’s manual because I think that’s sufficient to get people going no without having to go through all of that technical minutiae which is a fucking rocket science in the In The Bleak the big black book but that was where it left off and then you know for me all hell broke loose I had a spiritual emergency and I had to let it all just biodegrade everything I had built basically we just brought it in place and things fell apart for me financially and I’m personally but but that that outline for a at your own pace in low-income open source PBC it still exists and now as of this very moment I’m being called to to bring it back to life so that’s why I really wanted to have you on and for us to talk shop about this about the punk rock ethics and the hacker ethics and the the sort of I mean I think I think if I had the opportunity to meet with Bill on the astral plane and he knows that I went on the fucking Joan Rivers show and fucking brat and I brought the permaculture to the Joan Rivers show and she was happy she wanted to be trans apocalyptic she wanted to fucking bring the chickens into the into her backyard and turn her fucking swimming pool into a fish pond that was something that bill Mollison would fucking give me a pat on the back for it I would say so anyway that’s just that’s me sort of giving my my my dissertation defense if you will there anybody out there who is like wanting to show me or love me for this I had to just going to bring it out like that so and now you can tell me you know what you think about my my fucking my evil plans to conquer the world with benevolent egalitarian and access the permaculture it is an idea that has been wanting to happen for as long as as as long as has been teaching class like he said it it does go back to the very beginning every student should become a teacher of the permaculture are in there all right and it should have been affected in their mind enough that they would want to teach people that is freaking awesome don’t you realize you could be building soil there that you realize it could be slowing down water there don’t you realize you could be generated vegetation and any other ideas I meant to be shared and it spread at some people absolutely need to pay for it and pay full price and other people need that access that inspiration for free just like it has he said your your Sweat Equity I wouldn’t call it free your Sweat Equity and and willingness to indulge your self in the information and workout it that was the equity required to get you access to the knowledge to enjoy playing with permaculture and make it fruitful for yourself and your community and it seems like another inflection point where it’s about to become even more purple which is awesome yeah man I’m going to I’m going to try as it is another funny bit here if you’re good to go for another few minutes how are you doing on time and cool alright so I think that this would be a fun sort of you know pecan on the experience to get into not to get too deep into the well this this is more fun than the people who are who are more used to hearing me talk about sexy time stuff on this podcast this is where it is and it is that you know when I was when I mentioned being on the urban Homestead ish Farm property in LA area this was around 2012-2013 my past with sex work with with extreme activism with punk rock like all that stuff was was compartmentalised and shelved away because at that time I was developing with a very astute love partner business partner who who shall remain unnamed for now but if you if you watch the Joan Rivers show you can see us together at at are at the peak of our glorious as a power couple that was manifesting and you know kicking ass and taking names but she cleaned up my act a lot when I met her I was talking about the zombie apocalypse and I was putting out punk rock jeans called survive 2012 and a head fucking like I took Boy Scouts clipart and I put Mohawks and fucking like studs on it very much in that the deep in the crust Punk aesthetic and the profane existence call him was going and it was like we’re getting ready for the zombie apocalypse and permaculture the only fucking way the punks are going to survive you know I wasn’t thinking about marketing to West LA high-end clientele and getting on the Joan Rivers show that was all that the Witchcraft of this dear woman who was a very wealthy woman you had a very amazing career and basically she was suno pruning those aspects of Authority or aspects of my my true character and and I I respected it I was like cool with you know being kind of funeral just having to up my professional game and in change my parents a little bit and then be able to work with her and work together and build a brand and we we built this brand that it’s also going to be sort of it he has had it’s it’s it’s our cue nobody needs it’s going to come back but really it was an opportunity for me to engage with Society at large on a totally different level toy different ear and so we were creating opportunities for very family-friendly brand and marketing and in and what not and so you know we put together a portfolio of our projects and what we have been doing on the property together and what our brand was trying to do and I had like a I even had a suit Panico superhero mascot that I was doing and very much working at the the G-rated and mainstream kind of level of approaching people and business development of What Not and so it one of the the things that we did since she who is so well-connected is if there is a very one of the most famous actors of all time was a friend of hers was one of his his top assistant was a close friend of hers and the friend of of the property and what not and and we thought she was like we need to pitch all the stuff we’re doing to have a reality TV show we want to do a reality TV show of how we’re doing permaculture and survival and you know it can be something that’s like very very mainstream friendly and what not and so I put together a bunch of stuff for a little packet oral presentation and we showed the guy we’re doing this and we’re doing that and we’re doing this and that and this and that and he looks at anyssa psych not he’s scratching his head and it’s like kind of frustrated and kind of distraught and he basically just says I’m sorry guys I hate being a basic hate to be cynical but people aren’t going to be interested in this like it’s too it’s too G-rated you need basically you need to make you said you need to make permaculture sexy and he meant that as more of like if you want to compete with people’s eyeballs for attention like it’s going to have to be edgier than than than what you’re doing and how you’re not going to maybe you know your mascot could become the next SpongeBob or something but most likely you know you need to just like except how cynical about this reality is and and think about you know you would have to be asking you would have to be if you want to reality TV show it has to all be about sexual politics and drama amongst adults or teens and that’s the only way anything’s going to sell it so just you know either do that or do you not think I’m sad and disappointing and it was kind of a cliffhanger but as I as you know from that point if you were to cut the movie script right there is cut the scene there of him planting that seed and then I go through my Dark Night of the soul and everything kind of dissolves in Melts the way and I go through this hero’s journey into the Shadow and come out as a sex worker and has like a sexual wounded sexual healer and I become a tantric Shaman and all this fancy-schmancy you know stuff and start getting back into doing porn and and it’s like but I never stopped being a fucking as a permaculture designer and I never stopped seeing opportunity to transmute and transform waste into resources and valuing the fucking marginal so I’m like I look at making permaculture sexy and I said thinking about you know I’m doing all these Landscaping gigs in Beverly Hills and west side and stuff it’s like I wonder who has the Landscaping contract for the Playboy Mansion because give me the damn shame that I can just imagine all these bunnies with no no carrots to eat out of their own permaculture Garden like somebody needs to sell that now that is what if I pitch that to that guy now hey we’re going to make permaculture sexy let us do a permaculture Makeover at the Playboy mansion and we can take pictures of the bunnies eating carrots and they grew themselves you know that that’s where I started to bring the the perfect culture you know aspect back together and Bill Mollison is definitely a lecherous bastard and in and there’s plenty of evidence of that so he would not take offense to what I’m saying now but put the that’s kind of that was a joke of this coming full circle but another aspect is just that if I take making permaculture sexy as if prime directive and I look at okay you know I can only be my sexual Capital also we talked about the different forms of capital that’s not on the list and sexuality as a as a vector as a as a sector these are permaculture jargon for understanding flows of energy sexuality Flows In and Out of a site and such a deep fundamental way but it gets neglected overlooking design and not a lot of people are designing for let’s say different relationship structures or or designing for maybe the tagari farm I believe it’s in porch Spain or Portugal like they’re actually doing permaculture with with the sexuality a sexually intelligent design aspect and so it’s just really an itch that far behind the curve as far as everything else in permaculture so it didn’t make sense for me to take up that cause and to start talking about sexuality permaculture designing sites and systems that account for these flows of energy and so where where I’m knowing that there are limitations to my sexual Capital potential the knowing that when I discovered and getting back into the adult industry at cycle wait a minute these models and these porn actresses they actually charge very little money to do all kinds of different shoots like they are used to standing in front of holding cigarettes and booze and standing in front of sports cars and literally you know if you’re a model who were who is like a top-ranking model on modelmayhem.com or you’re the which is the most famous fanciest pornstar in the world your your day rate and your half-day rate in your hour rate it’s actually not that much for anybody who who wanted to like me make permaculture sexy to start to hire these people and start to actually put them in the landscape put them into permaculture designs and have them start to teach and have them start to demonstrate and let them become the teachers of permaculture that would fulfill that directive to make permaculture sexy so fast forward from that planting the seed of that directive to me doing my best to integrate permaculture with my work and my offerings but knowing the limitation I have maybe even a greater leap of faith and and risk and and risque if you will to be like okay well you don’t want to listen to Jeff lot and talk about permaculture you don’t want to listen to Paul Wheaton talk about permaculture you don’t listen to Jack spearco talk about permaculture how about the Playboy that are the play girl of the month you know I mean talk about permaculture then we’re cooking with grease and not is my you know hack that’s my function and and it’s starting to move and now I will be certifying some of these models and pornstars excetera excetera giving them the course that I had through you and modifying adapting it to their lifestyle and their schedule and beer you know availability and their interests and pretty soon I would dare say it’s going to cost very little money to have huge cultural leverage with their millions of followers and their millions of likes and just all of that capital of that Social Capital social media Capital merging that with the sexual capital and putting it into a holistic permaculture design where there’s a potential for the mean the games and the contest and like when I see what these models and and pornstars do on their social media to like riled up in and get their fans to participate in some contest to see them wearing some new outfit or whatever the fuck it is like you know when you put it very well in this conversation about the way that you’re mine shifts where you see opportunity for ecological from for helping life be conducive to more life you see those opportunities everywhere and it’s like there’s a limit to what people like you and me who aren’t multi-million follower Instagram models or whatever there’s a limit to how much we can transmit that but if they start to incentivize their fan base and they say yeah you want to have a date with me well you got to plant a tree to do that and if you plant a tree and you can prove it with the a video of you doing it then maybe you get you entered the raffle to have a nice date was Peter sup expect they do the most ridiculous shit and people are like men they’re abused frustrated sexual needs are being just totally manipulated by the door the whole capitalist wasteful system and if only it could be more elegantly finessed so that there was an alignment of ecological values and sexual gratification sexual fulfillment and the titillation of tits and ass you know we could really be where Jeff on says we used to be which is the most beneficial element in the system that humans can be that and I think it just takes putting that fucking carry it in front of you know the right energy and getting getting that frustrated Sexual Energy to actually serve serve Gaia and who better than Ben Ben some of these models which I determine undiscovered are actually quite quite an expensive to hire and I’m asking to do things far less intrusive and far less the grading than what they’re getting acid Dubai every other person who’s Contracting with them so that’s that’s my bite bite the next chunk of a thesis that I have found out there on the design charrette table setup for YouTube channel there you have it man that’s that’s the monster that you created in and I think Bill would be fucking having a shity than Grande right now if you could know about it he would absolutely absolutely love it I am sure that well good job then I love where you were at life and Imagination that has taken you and I look forward to what you able to produce and where they do in the future I thank you for that I think just the ad just as simply put if you think we both know anybody who you got to meet him personally but anybody who is Coosa been able to stand and stomach more than five minutes of his form of humor you know you would get it yeah he would think that this was a great hack and I do it to you know in that Spirit of honoring the lineages of teachers and the you know it’s not going to be everybody’s cup of tea but you know I wanted to have that that that thought process kind of vetted you know and have you sound soundboard on that and that’s pretty much my yeah that’s it’s a huge gift from you to me to to allow me to elaborate to that degree and to bear with me on that and now two were not me we’re not going to we’re not promoting anything particularly of yours we’re not funneling people to your websites or to your your Works per se but while you have a supper 290 which anytime you’re welcome back of course and we’ll probably check in on things in the future but this kind of is like we’re like time-stamping the blockchain Innocence by having this conversation we’re we’re establishing the the the spirit of resistance in this bizarre and unique format of of you and me talking about this stuff right now and so like with this opportunity that you have to speak from your heart and soul and everything you’ve learned in all the places you’ve arrived at I would love for you to just take over on however much time you’re comfortable with and like advise me on what you’ve learned and where you’re at and you know we talked about maybe busting some myths or at least talking putting some critique on on a permaculture movement if if you like but I just want to say my I rest my case for sexual pervert culture and fucking punk stacking permaculture and now you have what is snow humble audience to speak to but it will be growing over time and when we when we publish this episode there will be you know hopefully copies of it preserves you know for time immemorial and it will be something that people can look back on so it’s it it may age with Grace and it may it may continue to bear fruit so so feel free with that said to you know bestow whatever wisdom you’d like and doesn’t have to have any new no correlation to what I said that was just me putting in my my little timestamp yeah I I’m not sure that I would have so much more to say about the my recent learning so I would maybe just invite people to take those moments to appreciate life and dive into some methadone and and enjoy it and and dig on some of the philosophy and maybe even get into the weeds and read up on some FH King farmers of forty centuries and just think about where we’re at now and where we cooking in 10,000 years as Humanity probably not doing as bad as you think we’re doing I would say we’re probably doing a hell of a lot better than your mind thinks we’re doing and those are the kind of thoughts that I guess I’m working with at the moment so yeah if you if you don’t mind I’ll try to teach him we’re out of there we talked about futurism before and talked about you know that the long now and Kurzweil and that reconciling of amor primitivist perspective with the Amor techno Optimist perspective so you know now that you kind of yeah, you kind of shared a couple of resources do you want to just like if you were to put together your own party pack let’s say of the things that Arthur’s resource is not to say that we’re going to do that or you know take that on but but I would be curious to know if you would want to elaborate on just lists of influences that you had you know people and anything that you would consider to be a valuable resource like that go ahead and add some more to that list and then I think we’ll call the show if we’re if we’re happy with that where I would throw some ideas is Imagine The Long now I would say Stewart brand book and any kokrak minted whole earth discipline is a great place to start and that’s that’s got a lot of ecological heresy that he presents if he will end the end that can change your mind on a few thing and if you’re looking to change your minds on you know being super down about the world’s going to hell in a handbasket and and you’ve been deeply involved in send Derek Jensen work or something like that I would definitely say grab a list of books by Steven Pinker the better angels of our nature Matt Ridley the rational Optimist Peter diamandis abundance and I I guess like you said Ray Kurzweil The Singularity is near and think about radical demonetizing EFM realizing technology can help perpetuate ecological regeneration and human flourishing because not opposed you know that the system to develop technology is certainly not purposefully and willingly opposed to regenerating the system in fact I think trying to Mary conservation with technological Advance is providing a very bright halfway towards the future and with that in mind never disregard the sacred and always take a moment to reflect back ten thousand or more years rely on wisdom to guide you I guess that’s about that’s about all I have on those ramble that’s beautiful man I just reminds me of the one thing one thing I’ll close with your which is believed this was in that Mollison Lawton PC where he says basically what you do in your permaculture design should have worked where you are a thousand years ago and it should work where you are a thousand years from now and that is like the that’s another thing to meditate on you know yes absolutely and it goes with that it’s like can you be high-tech as you want and be compliant with nature the same time you know yeah right on Manuel crazy insane bulletin things that you like super counterintuitive in and could totally like this this is an awesome one so I would assume eco-warriors would think that petroleum products are all super negative there are some really interesting very underground moles and project in the Middle East where he actually use petroleum product to erosion and reverse the desertification and I think that if it’s worth not not condemning every tool just because of where it came from their options to use just about every tool for potential regenerative benefit. Will pay huge dividends in the 1000 to 10000 your time scale is very tantric in a sense that Township pushes you to towards the taboo and the transgressions that help you realize non-duality and integration and break your phobias and and understand you know every tool in the toolbox with with the ethics of right action ultimately it with the bigger picture in mind so that’s another another guy want anything else before we wrap I think that’s good cool man all right well that. Comes full circle we I think we crushed it we’re talking about Punk punks hacking critical and we did a massive thank you so much this is been a huge honor and you know the respect that any martial artist would have for their Sensei or any Yogi would have for the guru I have that for you and I absolutely wish you the best and I live to make you proud and hopefully you know if tall is the the business logic pants out well then there will be yields yields upon year olds to to share and to feed back into more fun and more teaching and just confusing being conducive to more life men awesome awesome all right that we have a great evening and we’ll be in touch please go to www.crunch.com can cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition to sustaining and improving the podcast your donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple up here by Tycho logical employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 18275 1593 or emo band at Tantra Punk. 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