Tag Archives: anarcho-punk

Mike Antipathy Eco Punk Logo

Forest Love and Rugged Collectivism with Eco-Punk Mike Antipathy TPP269

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In this episode I’m joined by my old dear friend Mike Antipathy for a trip down memory lane back to the eco-punk squatted forests of the pacific northwest

Contact Mike at safetypunk (at) gmail (dot) com

Check out his Eco Punk Column here: http://slugandlettuce.net/columns/eco-punk

My Non Verbatim Show Notes:

Old punk house, portland, or

vegan straight edge, deep ecology

trying to get land as a base to reclaim a bunch of everything

apathy and privilege rant

let’s get together and wreck shit

important for people of extreme left to get a dose of real back woods americana, politics of the constitution, boot strapping businesses, rugged diy attitudes

activist scene run by kids with trust funds

working in the woods cutting down trees

12 of use living in the house

kids traveling to europe, squatting we were stuck just working

bio region, forest, politically, right before WTO, big movement in portand, really exciting, coming off days of early 90s, nazis street fighting

more of a working class artist warehouse, used to ride bikes over there

spurkraft

first permaculture workshop with sasha scatter from icarus project

right as gentrification starting to crack, alberta, warehouse, the maul venue

liberation collective, all ages venues, record stores, collectives, solidarity and comradery across movements

wasn’t infected by super negative elitist eugene vibe

lot of toxicity

pre 9/11 heyday, more breathing room

anarchist collective network, stitch together different activities

the nuge survivalist workshop

backwoods skills

ted nugent documentary, metal heads joke about old rock and metal

he’s a deep character, people love to hate him, proto romance with survivalism

scheduled a workshop, the nuge workshop

school trustafarian crust punks, teach how to each things in the wild

virtues growing up working class white, grow up with guns, fire, chopping wood, machetes, watching red dawn 10,000 times

earth first heyday

Antipathy zine

13 going to record stores, super into Iron Maiden, Twisted Sister, Ozzy Osborne

Dead Kennedys

got out of abuse church, DK album cover, In God We Trust ep

Got that, had that song moral majority, nazi punks fuck off

Black Flag wasted era

Bad Brains

English stuff, Crass, Flux of Pink Indians, Rudimentary Peni

NY hardcore, politics dodgey but man the music

trying to get all the bands and all the music you can get into your head

Icky’s Tea house, 13th and Washington, venues in Eugene

Resist and Exist and Asylum gathering, apocalyptic mad max, profane existence, pull quote, a cross between braveheart and lord of the flies

portland was always weird, oregon’s mountains, everything drains into the columbia, eugene, the willamette, drains to columbia, then the pacific, punks metal heads queers, riot girls, drifted down stream to portland

big enough you could have this punk scene where you never had to associate with anyone else

hang out, you and the hippies, logger kids the smoked weed, eugene still had that, punks all hung out with the hippies, ravers, underground hip hop scene, cross cultural stuff wasn’t happening in portland

eugene had been a very very lefty, warren creek, saving last stands of old growth, feel into that hook line and sinker when I was 18

what if we had punk politics rebellion, bodies between trees and chainsaws, music festival, outreach, literature, speakers, connect kids to something bigger

Chaos Days 95

horror stories of the carnage

flyers for chaos days, 19 we rolled in thick, sf, turned out to be a bust

food not bombs

coming back man what if we did chaos days

get arrested for smart shit, icky’s sunshine the patron saint of all things counter culture, big shout out

just put in on man, I’ll make space for you, put out flyers, ads in maximum rock in roll, profane existence, slug and lettuce, booking

all the sudden 3000 punks from all over the world flooding eugene, raising hell, robbing liquor stores

city council meeting to lift camping ban, running for mayor

resist and exist, the punk scene in the 90s, trauma kids, mental illness

guy got throat slit, someone run over by train, skinhead problem

mutual aid network to defend selves from skin heads

sf scum fucks

horrible gang rape, intense shit

shows shut down

bands show up out of own pockets

road bike around eugene, underneath bridge, dystopia played, fanatics, all kicked off

skin heads showed up, starting shit, gutter punks, scum fucks, got super violent

watching all these gutter punks smashing heads with smilies, pivotal movement

for most of the people who survived times, extreme environments, a lot of us were idealist about a utopian pacifist anarchist, had to be tactical for the shows to happen, how much more anarchy could you get or could you want, we got what we prayed for, we got what we asked for, we just didn’t know at the time that we had it

asylum, chaos punx, train hoppers, amoral gangs, rape and pillage, mauraders, vandals, parasitized, they could have made a movie, decline of western civilization, hollywood drunx period, hdp

punk scene in la now is so good, love it so much

stiff little fingers show all old white people

where are the punks, where are the kids, everyone’s on their phone, filming, no ones dancing

the legend, troll, leader of the drunk punx

strung out, sweet kids

asylum, earth first going through growing pains

punk rock more radical, queer, take earth first to something more radical, bigger better world view than a bunch of straight dudes drinking coors

there’s this old growth, one stand, massive beautiful powerful trees, climbing 12 foot thick doug firs, we should do something about this

music festival in general area

some old log deck clearing, bands playing, workshops, invite all these different things a big presence will be this environmental movement,

sacred land don’t bring alcohol

earth first, going through wanting to have focused gatherings on sacred land, alcohol is really toxic and poison for a lot of native people

found amazing log deck up

not too far from hot springs

bands played all this water, everything was set up, kids from hollywood showed up

scum fuck kids from seattle showed up, turned into a warzone

van of alcohol rolls up, all the pc kids face the trauma kids

one night of bands, political kids fend off gnarly drunk punk trauma kids

giant orgy guy, with pick axe, taxing people for whatever they had, barbarian style

became orgy of violence and debaucherous robbery, primitive weapons

regroup in the city

h2h, the system created them, the system has to deal with them

never wanting to involve authorities in our bubble of anarcho punk utopia, felt we should have might, means, reasoning, collectivized consensus judicial systems to get through anything

at a certain point, it’s over our heads

notion that we should feel bad that we can’t handle the situation, we didn’t create it, the system did

we had that moment

pulled it together, relocate to new location

security meetings, perimeters

good times, hot springs, jumping off train bridge, made out in spin the bottle

bought manowar kinds of metal lp

really important that the music happened

remember driving away from the log deck, bitchin reservoir, Neil brought the food not bombs, legend, big shout out, still living the life,

he’d invite you over to his house to stay, vegan

driving away

whole arizona punk scene, really friendly, really tough

most of those hollywood kids are dead

good training for us wasn’t it

that was fucking raw man

sometimes you think you know what you’re life story is hinged on, the pivot points, now I’m realizing

eugene wasn’t a cult of john zerzan, it was a cult of group think

in the forest my heart chakra began to develop

fabric of punks, earth firsters, fall creek

almost half my life in l.a. I’m only in la because of the follow up

gotta recruit the foot soldiers of the punk movement, either apathetic or hyper political and don’t know what to do except book shows, make donations

the idea of living in off grind, anarchist community of earth first based, that whole tribal community, an experience not a lot of the radical punks got to have, I was blessed to eventually get there

when I first went to fall creek, camped there on and off for months

had that feeling I’ve got to mobilize the punk movement

went on us tour, ended up landing me in la for about 20 years, did bring some people out there

that was the spirit, how do we get these places protected, sorting through some of the really toxic riff raff and get some real eco warriors out there

give ourselves a toast, home break apple cherry cider

raising glass, bringing punks to the front line of fall creek

Mike Antipathy, eco punk column, antipathy zine

fall creek was one of the most dysfunctional fucked up environmental movements of its time, almost entirely staffed by trauma kids, a bunch died, from the trauma the ghosts, the demons they couldn’t escape, you don’t get into this shit unless something has gone really really sideways in your development

its a really good thing that we’re able to transform whatever bad shit happened to us into a desire to make the world a better place, not all of us get out of it

barely made it out of that, big glasses raised to all those people who didn’t make it, they were important

tribute to fall creek, and all the other people we’ve lost

fanzine, like to rant about stuff

look back, fuck

crazy, can’t believe it came out of my mouth, last one came out after 2000

super helpful

slug and lettuce, free newspaper all across the world, seen in south east asia, street punk market, stacks of slug and lettuce, out of the goodness of her heart

asked to write a column

reunification of rural roots, having been raised on a farm

if you think you can do forestry better, get up and do it

followed old generation earth firsters, we’re doing it better

fell into working on logging sites, tree climber, got into that, through that getting bigger and bigger in terms of work I was doing

talk about howling wolves, salmon run coming up the stream

print magazines for the subcultural left, and punk movement

internet, just too much, doesn’t matter

if you were gonna write a zine you had to put art, creativity, research, cut and paste, go places, to produce a zine the effort that would have to be made, was a heart work, don’t want to take that away from people who have blogs on the internet, but something to be said

generation gap between my youth and the new generation

back in my day joke, it was like this, walk 10 miles in the snow to get to school, american men, masculinity, their disgust and disdain at the softness of the next generation and how easy it is, and how they take things for granted and how privileged they are, it’s weird to now get that wisdom

thoughts on current punk scene, millenial, how have the millenials, picked up the culture of punk, amdist all the social media, big data, rigged and engineered algorithms, shadow ban you

where are we at with punk

super into, super into the way the young people are right now

really intense shit happening in the 80s and 90s not really as intense anymore

portland, nazis at shows mid to late 90s, now there’s not

didn’t see faces get stomped on curb, didn’t see heroin

go to a lot of shows, kids are so nice, so conscientious to each other

have more money these days, europe go to big punk fests, things are looking up, punks are leading the way, not doing the vapid shit of the sexy selfies so much

still around the scene, nothing moves me as much as my time, tour in mexico 2003, where I most dedicated most pure hearted, fabric of intergenerational punks, what I had always dreamed up

so cal pride

so much hate on millenials, being spoiled rotten, good to know

hopefully there will be more mentors

brings us through most of the chapters where we had been running in the same circles

get into some politics and some survivalist prepper stuff, debriefing on current events

take radical experiences and politics, cover tattoos and do ballsy work within the system

from that spirit of rugged collectivism, permaculture

zombie apocalypse fantasies where your mind at

wild, go into stores, shelved emptied of dumbest shit

not real scarcity

all the shit is still there, but people are freaked

two weeks a month of groceries so we’re not exposing ourself or contributing to more people dying

this is not the apocalypse I’d imagined I thought it was gonna have a lot more smoke, cop cars, sirens

y2k sitting in our mountain compound, waiting for the glow of burning cities in rural oregon, we were fuckin ready, bunch of dried beans

shit turned out to be a fuckin bust

unsung heros, not a geek or hacker, have to study info security, trying to catch up on what I had not been clued into, steve gibson, security now podcast, people laugh about how y2k was a non event, but only because the engineers busted their ass to make it not be

trippy point, I hear all these whistle blowers talk about how they’ve bungled the pandemic response, which governments have fucked everything up

if you do the proper preventative measures and you’re successful at preventing the catastrophe from happening, people will want to cut your budgets and say you’re wrong because it never happened, the thing you were predicting that you’re urging people to prepare for, if you’re effective at preparing for it and preventing it, then it’s not a thing, and people have cognitive dissonance, so then they get soft

south korea and singapore, more experience with SARS, culture of wearing masks

don’t get trampled on the way to the fema truck

live in a mexican neighborhood, exactly the same, stores are stocked, most people work in fields, not a lot of disposable income to buy all the toilet paper from costco

keeping local

not the apocalypse I wanted, where we got to be warlords

tin foil hat segment

some people scary, depending on where you are on the political spectrum, unraveling of world economy, opportunism, could go on some extreme tin foil hat

tin foil hat adventure

I don’t have much tin foil anymore

just being vegetarian, shopping in bulk, already had the bags of rice, nothing is out of wack, ammo from dead dad

have a 10 year old now, trying to teach him to be a better non toxic man

could be carriers of a virus that’s pretty gnarly

court systems all shut down

completely suspend habeas corpus, no right to speedy trial, indefinitely post poned

poor, mentally ill, mostly brown and black, get rid of the constitution indefinitely, let people linger for low level offenses

system’s even worse than we ever thought it was

not opposed to abolishing prisons, what are thoughts on trying to lesson density of over crowded prison, letting them out early into what, what’s their severance package, where they gonna go

prop 47, all the sudden supposed to let all the drug possession felonies, made it all misdemeanors, lack of treatment

gabor mate, science, trauma, addiction

prosecutors and cops running on 1950s notions, anyone who touches drugs is evil

most people in justice system don’t have experience with drugs and trauma, they should let more prisoners out

prisons make us less safe, prison increasingly traumatized, I don’t know

this whole system was made by slave owners

positive note, decriminalize nature movement, spreading across the nation, decriminalized plant and fungi entheogens

some jurisidictions, diversion programs incorporate trauma healing with entheogens

don’t feel hopeful about it, california is fascist as fuck, last place that does anything healthy with that as a state

state banned gay marriage on purpose in 2008, california is so completely backwards

I don’t think it’s gonna happen

despite people kicking heroin with iboga

not gonna have access to that healing modality, federally still illegal

things are getting worse legally than they ever have been, with exception of immigration

the state is going to take excess in as many directions as they can, then have to be austere in enforcement in other things

numbers of police departments, knocked out because of sick or quarantine

foreshadowing for emergent properties of anarchy that were never imagined

even losing of parking restrictions

dimensions of freedom that are unenforceable

we’re blessed to have the internet as long as it lasts

getting more into traditional survivalist communications, ham radio, late bloomer on, trying to go through thought experiments, what will you never forgive yourself if you don’t have this prep dialed in, you take for granted, you’re be said you didn’t prioritize what that was, everyone has a different checklist

I’m feeling pressure on as general question that can apply to anybody

no easy to cover ass, cover assets, do proper estate planning, what if you can’t do updated last will because you can’t assemble the witness you need to sign the document, government is doing all kinds of digitization of procedures

officially time stamp my intention

whatever is left after paying minimal debt, executor of will, power of attorney they would take some percentage to pay themselves for the time to sort out what intellectual property I have and what potential revenue streams may be funneling into my estate, decided I want whatever is net gain of my estate, to actually be distributed among non profits, I have no heirs, that are individuals, would rather structure something where I can say, here’s a list of non profits, I would want it distributed equally among the, 3 I have in mind are the Red Brigade in lucknow india,sexual abuse and rape survivors banded together to make most bad ass indian version of a riot girl collective, teaching each other self defense and martial arts, self policing neighborhoods, most bad ass warrior kung fu clan, martial arts masters from all over the world have gone to volunteer to train them, and give them seminars, they’ve set up non profit donations, part should go to them, part to the Women’s Visionary Congress, and the Decriminalize nature movement, all these represent what has kept me alive, and allowed me to transcend my traumas, I don’t know if what I said would hold up in any legal proceeding, at least this will exist til the paper work can happen

now everyone has a reason to do the unthinkable, do the estate planning

spoke to mother, here’s my plan, let me know your plan, this is a bridge we have to think about crossing

5 wishes, template to know how you have to frame things like how you want to be buried, what ritual you want around that, so people can’t abuse you after you’re gone, protect your soul:

I want to put this out, time stamping this conversation:

I would like to be cremated, and buried while planting a fruit or nut tree so that I sign can be posted saying here lies ben lawson feel free to piss on his grave and nitrify this fruit tree and if you ever cut it down or let it die, I’m gonna come back and haunt your ass

if you can donate organs donate organs

freeze my brain so my bitcoin holding will be worth gazillions more by the time they thaw me out

been trying to catch up on many years lost on anarcho primitivism versus cryptoanarchism

hacker punks, manifestos of crypto anarchy in early 90s, legacy of hacker collectives, the talk of the wall street billionaires, government officials abandoning their posts to join the movement

this is the thing you could commiserate on, I never believed anything anarchist came up with would be competitive with incumbent systems

they actually built something that was competitive, was able to out compete

line malcolm x once said, make the old system obsolete, they era that we were in , the analogy of how astonishing it is they were able to make millionaires and billionaires out of this hacker implementation of cryptography, it’s like saying food not bombs was so loved and so competitive with mcdonalds, kfc, everyone started showing up and paying everyone at food not bombs, fnb became the cherished favorite food of all americans, you never would have thought that something out of the anarchist caldron of creativity, would actually do that, without brute force, without violence, with an elegant ninja tactic, actually out manuver the system, and give it a run for its money, literally, and that’s what’s happened, something I’ve tried to catch up on, not for everybody to learn all the nuts and bolts, gotta raise the glass to all the geeks and hackers that I’ve always fuckin respected, the ones that told me that I shoulda fuckin paid attention to this and I was too busy huggin trees, I coulda bought those timber sales

thing with environmental movement is that a lot of the stuff we got out of that wasn’t actually what we went in there for, it was all those other lessons, we saved precious few forests but we learned a lot more, that you would never have learned if you were sittin in a dark apartment writing code and buying bitcoin

something to be said about wild forests, skinny dippin in natural waters, and smellin your own body odor and smellin your own shit everyday, those are formative things, that make us better

couldn’t have said it better, love you brother

no small contribution you’ve made to my life

stay wild

always remember, every day when I wake up I remember that quote, whatever keeps the barrel out of your mouth, that’s the proper way to live

Anarcho-Punk, Psychedelics, and Survivalism with Laughing Coyote TPP98

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Laughing Coyote Pic
This episode contains an interview with one of my anarcho-punk brothers from back in the day. We recorded this conversation over 6 years ago yet it remains a compelling primer on the evolution of radical ecological movements and the their dynamics within the punk underground.

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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin hello dear beloved welcome to Township Punk podcast episode number 98 this is a blast from the past a recording I did with a dear friend of mine from the anarcho punk movement this was back in 2011 and 2012 was so big on my mind and it was a catalyst for a lot of Rapid transformation and I think we’re just beginning to see some of the changes that people were preparing for it that time so it’s kind of a time capsule looking at where I was coming from and it was a beautiful opportunity for me to catch up with an old friend with deeper roots in the movement of a knuckle Punk and Eco activism and psychedelic Shamanism and anarcho-primitivism green Anarchy and much more so I think it’s a great primer on the movements that I really feel like I’ve been most affected by and in the most aligned with and yeah I hope you enjoy it thank you so much no mistake I’m here today with a very dear and old friend and comrade at laughing coyote and the I will ask you introduce yourself tell us a little bit about how you personally evolved into a punk rock culture and anti-thyroid tarianism and where and when and how the environmental and ecological movement in Consciousness started to emerge with that path yeah I guess you were asking me earlier about how I got involved in the anarcho punk subculture and how I begin when in my life I begin identifying as an anti fart Aryan and I would say for me I mean it goes back to my first conscious memories Witcher you know maybe kindergarten around that. Of my life from a very early age before I even possess the vocabulary to articulate my views on external Authority and the attempts of those around me particularly adults to control me I had an instinctive aversion to being controlled and I definitely was with a we’re on a intuitive level that there was an indoctrination and socialization process going on around me one of my earliest memories is being forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance in kindergarten being introduced to that brainwashing ritual for the first time and realizing you know seeing seen the psychological mechanics at work and I went to to be grasping that immediately I I knew that by forcing us to repeat this his oath day after day that there was a process of brainwashing occurring I just didn’t have the vocabulary possess the vocabulary at the time to to explain that to anyone else but I was aware of what was happening and I was mentally guarded against it once I learned to read and write the once I crack the code of language I was probably 7 or 8 at that point I realized at that point that I the public school system of you know that was holding me prisoner at the time was standing in the way of my education and that once I had gained the gift of literacy I I I was quite prepared to just take it from there and strike out of my own I realized I didn’t really have a I have a need for this standardized State curriculum and I resented you know this state finance housing facility that I was confined in 5 days a week so I I definitely was looking for ways to rebell and to escape but at a young age it was hard for me to articulate what I saw going on around me and I didn’t feel like I had a lot of allies and I didn’t really understand the on the limits are the extent of my own personal strength and ability to alter my situation so yeah I begin exhibiting rebellious antisocial anti-authoritarian Tendencies at a young age tried my best to get thrown out of school I am putting on my my real political Awakening I was kind of a Rebel Without a Cause you know up until about age 10 or 11 and one of the ways in which I rebelled against the end of it the Stipe stifling conformis environment that I was being Riordan was through drug use and by the time I was ten I was already smoking marijuana but in a way that actually led to my political radicalization because I grew up outside the New York City area and couple times a year New York City radicals would hold events in Central Park that they called Smoke in where thousands of people would show up in a five to ten thousand people and they would open we light up in smoke marijuana in defiance of the authorities in defiance of the police and nobody got arrested because in that case there there were just too many of us so I’ve been hearing about the smoke ends when I was about 12 and that started drawing me into Manhattan more regularly and it was that one of these smokins that I encountered my first and largest newspaper was called overthrow and it was put out by some former hippies who still maintained an office On Bleecker Street in Greenwich Village former Associates Abbie Hoffman who unlike Jerry Rubin and some of the other sell out to their generation they they stayed true to the game and a they were definitely anarchists leaning and their paper overthrow was certainly an artist and I started getting their offices On Bleecker Street and that was kind of my introduction to anarchism actually before I even discovered Punk so that prepared me mentally for my waiter Discovery upon which came when I was about 14 15 I mean I’ve been exposed to the anarchist Punk didn’t come it’s wet come my way until life’s about 14 or 15 when I start getting supposed to crass and all that various fans that are part of the crass family musical tree so did you start he started collecting records and going to shows and Koenig that typical process of of starting to hang out and and and kind of clicks of like-minded punk friends and video did you go a lot of punch go through a the politicization process that starts out with a very that service Street Punk you know fuck the world kind of kind of politically vacuous rebellious approach and then overtime get exposed to stuff that’s more heartfelt and compassionate and thoughtful but you had already been seated with anarchists in Revolutionary and you know social justice Liberation type Consciousness and then some music that Express that is well through anarcho-punk where did you go from there in terms of the scenes you get kind of plugged in into that world into that infrastructure and kind or are we kind of peripheral to it and you’re just always a fan and where did your life kind of go from that did it have did did the discovery of article Punk take me Lily guide to Direction your life or was it kind of background to other things or how did you how did you integrate it in were you directed by at that point wake me up in a small working class town in New Jersey about 20 minutes south of Manhattan and yet still quasi-war rural so we had a river that ran through our town called the musconetcong and I had access to forests you know within 20 minutes of where I lived in the opposite direction to Manhattan so there wasn’t any Punk scene to speak of where I was growing up I was definitely in the minority as far as my musical tastes went and the most rebellious elements amongst my peer group were metalheads and that’s pretty much why hang out hung out with they could be they could definitely be counted on to engage in a Mindless acts of vandalism and I could count on them in a lot of ways I mean they were we’re always enthusiastic about coming out spray painting tagging we pacing but that was what I was left to work with and my exposure to the punk scene involve going into Manhattan and that’s definitely where I began where I would have to go to acquire the music I was developing strong passionate interest in I was always you know I never went through like an anti nowhere we kind of phase was never a gbh type spikes in leather punk I mean I always gravitated towards the more intelligent punk bands and I was fortunate that that sweat started coming into my life anyway and what I was initially drawn to I’m with a lot of those fans with in particular the British anarcho-punk movement was I think a lot of people who don’t have any R4 Punk don’t have any work for the music and therefore of never investigated the The Counter Culture itself because of the aversion that they have to the music I think what they fail to realize is that there was a spiritual dimension to the scene especially in the early to mid 80s and I think there was a spiritual vision that was being expressed you know through the anarchist Punk movement through those those bands what they were what they were channeling and what they were expressing it had a profound impact on my life and my world view and for 15 years or more I didn’t listen to I virtually didn’t listen to any other type of music is there was nothing I encounter that was was more powerful our had a more powerful effect on me that resonated is deeply with me in the core core of my being political radicalization came through a lot of those pants Christ even even early Chumbawamba. certainly all the cracks in Mortar hate bands and bands like antisec in particular I mean that was my my exposure to animal rights animal Liberation the critique of species is on veganism which is something I embrace that a young age end incorporated into my wife for 17 years so you got those that scene had a profound effect on me but I was always because I didn’t have a larger seen that I could conveniently connect with I was always on the periphery of it and remain somewhat a lunar connected but still doing my own thing and then and it was good that I was able to maintain my distance like that because from that vantage point I was also able to observe the Conformity that was present even in the punk counterculture and a lot of the role-playing and a you know just the conformist attention to wearing the right costume and I never got sucked into that aspect of things and was actually able to maintain a detached critique of it so when in the you were getting exposed to the anarcho punk bands to an array of different social environmental and socio-economic issues and causes and movements what led you to an emphasis on environmental the environmental movement several things that were carrying that were several influences at work in my life simultaneously and definitely bands like avoid some of the early releases were instilling a strong environmental awareness and me and from there I wanted to learn more and so I began seeking out Publications like the Earth First journal on I think the single most profound influence on me during that period of my life though when I was wanting to understand my relationship with the Earth better and when I was developing a critique of urban culture was discovering the anarcho primitivism journal Fifth Estate which was coming out of Detroit during that. Of time actually from the early seventies to the early 90s that came out of the Troy and I got exposed to in about 1986 and a critique of civilization that was being formulated in fit the state during that. Of time just really blew my mind and really resonated with me and that’s when I started getting exposed to an Arco permabase writers like John’s there is an Fredy Perlman and during that. Of time every issue fit the state was crammed with investigative and bibliographical weeds tons of interesting authors and anthropologists were being cited regularly and fit the state so that gave me a lot of investigative leads to work with and I began seeking out a lot of these books and kind of immersing myself in that body of literature which I refer to as the anti-civilization critique starting with Lewis Mumford who was I’m addressing some of these issues in the 1920s and on up to the the wave of anarcho-primitivism explicitly anarchists critics of civilization that started making themselves known in the early seventies see you had established the conceptual framework to reorient yourself towards a more intimate connection with the Earth send to evaluate things like where food and water comes from in an urban culture and where we tradition or how and where we traditionally in in more Primal states of being were in balancing in Whitmore and bouncing different ways and then obviously through the Earth First Journal you’re getting exposed to the current events and issues in campaigns and whatnot did you joining the environmental movement did you was there a lot going on a lot of community that you found on the East Coast or was it coming to the West Coast where you found more of the I guess maybe we should get into just a relationship with hippie culture in a relationship with the environmental movement in the underground is just part of the the Riff Raff the overall Riff Raff you know in end of the circuits of different events like the rainbow gathering his stuff how that experience the social experience of of things in addition to the you know that the book experience in the literature experience kind of help formulate that that well before I moved to Oregon when I was 16 my understanding of what an old growth forest was was purely conceptual I was reading about it I was reading about in the Earth First Journal about the early tree sets early incidence of tree spiking but all of his stuff was occurring in the Western United States which was which is something you know I could vaguely imagine in my mind but I had no direct experience with it I’d never gone any further than a any further west than Ohio so when I move to Oregon that’s when a lot of things begin falling into place for me in my life you know intellectually and spiritually a lot of connections were instantaneously made I spent my first month in Oregon doing nothing but hiking around the Columbia River Gorge experiencing old-growth for the first time waterfalls a web of wildness that I didn’t think even existed on planet Earth anymore excited I never had anything to compare it to Savannah and the importance of the work that are the first was doing became even more apparent to me and it became much clearer what was at stake and why people were putting their lives on the line so I began exploring some of the areas that I was reading about in the Earth First Journal areas that were on the chopping block to be to be cut to be converted into clear-cut some areas that if our service and the Bureau of Land Management had designs on the earth first Journal was at least trying to draw attention to these areas and I happen to move to one of the hot spots the Pacific Northwest so this was occurring all around me so that that really helped me understand on a primal visceral level what was at stake and it stopped being like a purely intellectual fair to me at the point and just as a as a biological being I started to a to understand the the the assault that was occurring on the Web of Life how about yeah I had a definitely a similar transformative experience first getting involved with that resets and getting out there and seeing you know the Deep all girls that live the real like temperate rainforest FernGully experience and that seems to get right into people’s hearts very deeply very quickly and I totally relate to that so I and you have a unique experience that I definitely want people to learn about and hear about having frequent in the rainbow gathering and it’s I think it’s kind of like the the original working class Burning Man or Poor Man’s Poor Man’s Burning Man or something like that I guess I don’t know how the two were late you know in terms of how they cross-pollinated influence each other but I think a lot of people who see Burning Man as a cost-prohibitive Endeavor aren’t aware that the rainbow gatherings is and you told me some fascinating and wonderful things about that so maybe if you can talk about your that as an influence and is an experience and also stepping back from that just your encountering repair your encounters with and your integration of the hippie culture proper because I think what would my right as a punk my path went through that cycle of content just in your face or belly is anarchy you know kind of stuff to getting more refined and more sort of philosophical and theoretical about power relationships in class and class Warfare and stuff and then it was later that I got into environmentalism the environmental movement in and then specifically like for me it was more the crust anarcho-punk in amcrest was kind of the synthesis of the esthetic aesthetically it was at the synthesis of like Punk attire hippie dreadlocks in hemp jewelry in tribal type tattoos and tribal Trinkets and adornments and what not and even things like Patchouli and stuff like that so there’s a thin metal and then that the black you know that the black clothing and skulls and kind of the darker more evil aesthetic of metal and then the put the Consciousness in the energy in the spirit of of punk which may have been a kind of punk where was just you know people that whatever like not even dressed up but just the spirit and it didn’t matter what the law says not necessarily like bondage belts in Liberty spikes and stuff like that although there’s the memes are kind of intermix here and there but it’s definitely very apparent that hippie influence on you know just to everything from natural living and wellness and you know that that a lot of stuff getting aggravated so I’m curious you you have you no more of a more background experience probably directly encountering and integrating what I think it’s easy to makeover generalizations about anything that you are you have no personal experience with her that you’re critiquing from from afar it’s easy to stereotype Punk culture until you immerse yourself and develop some appreciation for how diverse it actually is I mean with with in the punk movement I mean how many schools of thought of and currents and sub currents have I have developed within you to the larger category a punk I mean everything from from straightedge to queercore to cross to pop punk ad infinitum you wouldn’t know that unless you would really involved yourself in it and then able to understand the nuances and the diversity that actually exist within the punk subculture I believe the hippie counterculture it’s been my experience that it’s every bit as diverse I mean you can stereotype all hippies as deadheads who like to wear tie dyes and who are worthless Stoners who snowboarding Stoners whose life revolves around glass pipes but I mean that’s that’s just one small aspect the hippie culture yeah they’re they’re just as the drunk punx are there in the glue to glue sniffing paw the gutter punks in the exploited Punk’s I mean yeah there’s plenty of things about the hippie counterculture a better disgraceful and embarrassing but I’m doesn’t entire Spectrum it runs the gamut and at its core the hippie movement was and is a DIY movement I mean it’s kind of a precursor to punk and you know that’s obvious if you know anything about the history of crass and you understand that with the exception of Steve ignorant every other member crass came out of the London hippie movement of the late 60s they were older hippies who recognized the Revolutionary potential of punk when it came along and also the artistic potential of it which I think they also took full advantage of but more than it I mean crafts more than any other anarchists projects of the late 20th century I mean they were almost single-handedly responsible for resurrecting anarchism as an international movement and it’s important to remember that was a bunch of hippies who did that so I think it’s it’s important to try to stay broad-minded and to think for yourself another thing about the hippie counterculture the 60s it’s important to look at what they were reacting against they be they were reacting against a mechanized society and increasingly mechanized Society and some of the ways some of the things that they pioneered are things that I benefited from later on as an anarcho punk I’m the fact that there were health food stores for me to plug into and take advantage of that I that stores existed where I could purchase tofu where I could acquire soy milk and all these new products at 7 we became important to me I have two hippies the back for that the fact that I could find organic food pretty easily here on the West Coast in the whole organic movement organic agriculture was something that was pioneered or at least Revitalize than significantly strengthened by by the hippies the back to the land movement of the early seventies the late sixties and early seventies but definitely in the 70s is when it began to occur when a lot of people realize that the values that they were fighting for where we’re real they were important they were values that they had internalized and wanted to live by but the revolution that so many people were counting on a hurting in the 60s wasn’t going to a car so I think a lot of it quote unquote hippies at that point decided that the best course of action available to them was to get out of the Cities get out of Babylon as as they call it and get back to the land to individually and in a small group secede from the system and so I also had that 2 to take advantage of the fact that you know where I was living in the Pacific Northwest there there was still plenty of functioning communes that were were established in the early 70s that I was able to visit learn from stay out for extended periods of time I mean that’s that’s where I begin to learn to grow food myself was a practicing on some of these communes that had Farms that had functioning Farms that you know provided 70% of the food that the people living there eight I had I have tremendous respect for that wing of the hippie movement people need to realize too that there has been an underground psychedelic movement that has existed at least since the time Albert Hoffman for synthesized LSD and it’s been it’s been underground Adam definitely reach the certain Peak or Apex in the late 60s the mid-to-late 60s but as the state became more repressive and totalitarian towards the use of psychedelic medicines the movement just went deeper underground and that’s that’s one of the that’s something else I think we we have to thank the real hippies for is that one at one of their roles in the grand scheme of things as I see it is that they keep these medicines and circulation and these medicines allow people to reconnect with the Earth and what I would call the guy in mind on a really deep non-intellectual Primal level in a life-altering way will you see things and learn lessons that will stick with you that will alter your perception reality permanently for the better that’s one of the things that I think hippies of really done for the counterculture and that’s one of the functions I think rainbow gathering serve that a lot of people don’t realize that they’ve never been to one I mean they are essentially group psychedelic ceremonies you’re not required to take psychedelics but there’s those medicines are being used and they’re being used by a lot of people and you’re participating whether you’re ingesting those medicines or not and I think that was one of the strategies that that people adopted I mean the first rainbow gathering was 1974 and I think at that point you know that the hardcore hippies who weren’t turning back who would who would dropped out fully and completely in their mind spiritually there was no turning back for them they realize that to keep their culture alive and they needed to continually recruit and the rainbow gatherings have served that purpose I mean thousands of people stumble upon the national rainbow gathering every year and are never the same again I’m glad you brought that up I kind of tell people now anybody who’s watched the movie Avatar and enjoyed it is paying homage to Ayahuasca and Amazonian psychedelic Shamanism because the Tree of Souls is based on the vine of Souls which is the translation of Ayahuasca and I heard from Daniel pinchbeck that it didn’t put should come as no surprise that James Cameron had had the a by waska ceremonial traditional Ayahuasca experience before writing that so it’s definitely flows that all of the translucent fluorescent alien otherworldly life-forms depicted and and and all of that come from the tryptamine experience if you will end yeah it’s been Terence McKenna said it one point I don’t know how they keep a lid on this stuff so it’s definitely that function in that role and you know I like I can now there are you know that Santo dime a legal precedent Clinton pass the Religious Freedom revitalization Act or something to that something to that effect and Terence McKenna assist talked about you know I don’t know if you said at one point in the lecture I don’t know if you’ve noticed this but the system is not going out it’s not handing out rights to people not handing out civil rights it’s not handing you know it’s not handing out to the for the oppressed and minority or minority populations who have who feel that their human rights are not being respected to say the least for psychedelic Society to to emerge and take hold it it would have to be there have to be a second telegram pollution and if anything is like the precursor to that it’s it’s sort of veiled but I mean even in in Lord of the Rings there’s references to the halflings leaf and you know there’s all these pop culture references to do his medicine is and I think that you know with the maps that the big an organization that’s trying to get clinical studies done with MDMA and all that stuff in there psilocybin studies being done it’s it’s not going to be a taboo thing it’s it’s it’s coming dancing to the volunteer for specific. Of time and work on specific projects for us at different times of the year we get most of our interns during the summer but we get interns year-round and we have in our volunteers so we have Educators we have people who are research Affiliates and who published research and use the center is one of their professional affiliations we have research assistants who helped them we do work with events so we do some Outreach events I think on Wednesday we’re going to UCLA sextravaganza which is been happening for several years on UCLA’s campus that we usually set up a booth are we do that with other things around town we’ve also have members some of our volunteers go to conferences all over the world and represent us at different places and in different areas apparently were very popular in Melbourne just found out from a friend who’s been living in Australia for the past couple years I can’t I guess we’ll have to go there at some point cool it’s a new cloud-based model it’s elegant and overhead in the neighborhood drama and that there’s a lot of reasons to transcend that six location and you can if you can be a mobile you know unit then you can just take your your your laptop and projector and some you know what your handouts or whatever you have in this b a anywhere and then again because through using Skype and using other types of internet programs you know we can get into a classroom you know that might not be able to bring us there physically but we can still do it will set it up on our end and and just stream live stream wherever we need to be and it’s very helpful to cuz we so we have volunteers I think are farthest away volunteer that we’ve had so far was in Trinidad so we can have volunteers from anywhere in the world who can work with us medication programs and so they help us Creator update or education resources in our reference materials and putting together things to help teachers facilitate this in their classes they might actually be one of our Educators we train people to go out to those classes and to give presentations to places we have research assistants to make come in with a certain amount of background knowledge and how to do academic research and some come in just wanted to learn it and so we trained them and they work with people who are doing research in various aspects of positive sexuality and so some of them get to co-author papers and some of them get to work on the ground floor of research happening and get to really get into what that is and have a voice and have an influence in what’s being done in the academic world and this is course then starts to affect policy when we’re putting scientific research in front of people and saying here this is what the says that’s not the correct or let them besides these aspects and that can be very very helpful we work with other organizations so and CSF the National Coalition for sexual freedom is one of our sort of co-working his nation’s the community academic Consortium for research on alternative sexualities we work with them as well yeah I’m getting chills yeah I’m getting chills cuz this is a lot more than I bargained for and actually seeking a lot of what you’re describing and to have yeah we hope we have a good bit of time last time feeling compelled to ask you a little bit about I guess hey if you’re into taboos right blowing them there is all I ever believed starting this week there’s going to be the biggest psychedelic science conference in the history of humanity happening in the Bay Area it’s put together by that multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic studies and the there’s a lot of really important cutting-edge legal for the first time in decades studies happening all over the world with psilocybin you know I gave magic mushrooms and MDMA and Ayahuasca and marijuana and peyote and I will gain a number of other synthetic and natural organic you could say psychedelic compounds in a lot of it is at this point in this stage of the Renaissance of research it’s really about proving the safety the relative safety of different compounds getting the dosage to be sort of understood better at also having some really important clinical trials around ending ending addiction to harmful drugs ending cigarette addiction end-of-life anxiety sexual abuse and Trauma and PTSD from War veterans there’s all these different the demographics that are starting to have really groundbreaking results and they’re doing you know they’re putting in the millions of dollars to do the the research for all this and so I bring that up just to say that this is an interesting juncture for me because the a cultural cliche about sex drugs and rock and roll and you know the way that the culture of inebrians is starting to move a large part due to Raves and festivals it’s moving more towards entheogens than just Coke and heroin and meth and booze there’s more opportunities for people who are coming into their sexuality to have access to psychedelic experiences and so there’s the new Alchemy of innocent in these Generations between sex drugs and rock and roll and if it’s it’s it’s it’s a lot more sophisticated and advanced and and and just more diverse in many ways than it was in the 60s when it was you know Acid Rock and LSD and other birth of the the hippie movement in the 60s but I’m wondering if you have in your position they’re come across any any any people who are interested in in rigorous academic study of what this new sex and drugs and rock and roll Paradigm it is shaping up to become if there’s anyone interested in that that you know of he’s been there are definitely people who are starting who are doing research on these topics and very often the connection that ends up happening in the academic research is you know if we’re looking at the sex drugs and rock and roll that of course is going to look at the outcomes and too often I think the the outcome that gets stressed is okay so what’s the what’s the public health issue so is it possible or is it likely that people are might be transmitting STIs because they might be under the influence of something or maybe they can’t we do we have to worry about consent if someone is under the influence of something that then means that they cannot now consent to what happens at that point so what happens if everybody who’s involved have done that so where does that line get drawn so I think a lot of the issues that have come up in recent research has been either on public health topics around STI transmission or on consent topics recognizing that at least by law if someone is inebriated for example they can now no longer consent to sexual activity okay so what happens if everybody involved. That’s so interesting yet that’s exactly what I’ve been actually encountering and in just by life experiences it’s there’s there’s a lot of people now who were you can say you were having expanded Consciousness through empty agentic use meaning it’s kind of a nice way of saying psychedelic no drugs but but that’s an important consideration because just because you feel like you’re enlightened than that one with God doesn’t mean that you’re immune from being the perpetrator with that Enlightenment that you don’t think you have a potential for abuse and even if it’s not that sort of shady you know where that sort of Insidious there’s also just the issue you’re not in your body if you’re having an out-of-body ecstatic psychedelic experience how how do you get even if you can send it to the idea of something earlier in the evening that has to be held through somehow and if you lose the if you become somebody else or part of your higher self or whatever it could be theirs that’s some chicky territory for sure yeah so that’s I guess there’s you know that I’ve seen like at electronic dance music events you can call him Rave but that’s kind of more you know probably more accurate term these days cuz there’s within that whole world there’s different camps and it’s more no more more bride to just called electronic dance music these days but you know there is there’s sort of harm reduction education Outreach groups that put out one sheet kind of look like glass CD mailer cards you know about business matters and they have kind of a profile of what the different substances how did how to test and make sure that they’re real or are what you’re getting it like that there’s that whole harm reduction education Outreach approach that is kind of like what you’re talking about but it’s for the party scene in just for best and better practices around that but I could see that they’re being a sum interest group of people where they would want to see things the way you’re talking about it cuz I actually no way you’re framing it it it feels like there’s a lot more due diligence for people that want to be credible and respectable and using best practices to actually think with some of these analytical tools so I’m hoping you’ll be great if there was some overlap or or or Synergy with all this stuff I think more and more what is happening as we’re seeing the people who are actually involved in all of these different spaces you know the people were actually doing whatever it is we’re talking about having more influence on the research that’s being conducted so that it creates a more authentic overall experience and I think it adds a level of legitimacy to the research so rather than a researcher sort of from on high saying well I’m going to study this group and I think what they’re doing may not be safe and so we know the perspective that I’m going to come about with this is that well this is already inherently unsafe and now I’m going to show you why it’s in safe and I think more and more we have researchers who are in these communities who are in these faces or doing all of these things and you say you know maybe we need to do is talk to the people who were actually doing this and not talk to them with a preconceived notion of what’s going on or what they’re experiencing or what may be happening but go in just as a hey could give us some information to tell us about what’s happening and I think we’re seeing more of that so there has been research on for example like barebacking and there’s been research on sex workers experiences and there’s been research on sort of the the spiritual some of the spiritual Connections in the spiritual extremes that can be experienced through extreme SM activities light hookah coals and those kinds of things so we’re seeing more and more of that happening where people who are actually in these groups are part of the subcultures are also crossovers into the academic life and we’re just seeing an amazing amount of research that starting to Bubble to the surface and get a little bit of space. I think this research has been getting done for quite a while but it can be really hard to get it published because some of the academic Publishers don’t want to hear about it and I want you to my is any of these things so if they publish something on it they want to be really careful so with our journal and with some of the other journals out there we’ve been able to bridge. Cap and actually be able to show some I feel like more authentic stories well absolutely will now in this world have so many The Gatekeepers being dissolved by the power of the internet I feel like you know there’s a lot of bad journalism or untrained journalism so there’s got to be a lot of bad or untrained or Incredible or uncredible research but maybe it’s the methodology that can be what’s the word sort of feel like I could imagine what as you were speaking I was imagining will wouldn’t it be great to train the you know that like the anthropological participation observation ethnography kind of model but if you were to train if you were coming from that subculture and you wanted to sort of document your tribe and produce your own ethnography kind of amongst your friends kind of tabulate experiences and collect notes insured compare notes is there was you recommend any kind of Crash Course doing data collection for different types of research paper I’m doing ethnography in the field and sort of how that works and how you can sort of pull everything together there’s a really good little guidebooks you know a quick online search for for some of these guys are out there and ask her if she is amazing stuff I love doing a photography by the way I think it’s an incredible tool that doesn’t get use nearly enough and and it got a lot of researchers a colleague of mine she recently did a photographic ethnographic working with lgbtq Foster Youth and homeless Youth and kind of went out gave them all cameras and said take photographs of Your World of your life of who you are, and they did a whole art show you know like found a gallery in Downtown LA and just played everyone’s photographs and and you know really got people connected to them and seeing them as people who have life experiences and they’re not just sort of a category of disadvantaged kids so yeah I think there’s there’s an easy guide books out there just like a quick you can find some quick little things of how to do ethnography and how to do that and but I think a lot of that to starts with her own storytelling so things that you do and things that others do and and all the bloggers out there and everything of these are all forms of ethnography relay yeah that’s cool it’s just that it’s exciting and hopeful cuz I feel that I’m at a point where I’m doing kind of pseudo-scientific Rogue radical research that’s way too far out for any government agency or any academic institution to touch with a ten-foot pole so it’s it’s kind of on me and my colleagues and friends 2 do this sort of underground research but then hope that it it’s done in a way that it can be respectable or it can be legitimated later you know but it is probably good to do what you’re suggesting and actually have some some templates for collecting the data that mean okay here’s what would our experiment yielded and here’s the methodology in the procedure and you can test it on your own Hardy or lab or whatever replicate what you’ve done and so can you give enough information that would allow somebody else to replicate and get similar results in their own place or find totally different results which is also fascinating injured and interesting and yeah and I think that’s really I mean that’s science that is science Sciences pushing boundaries and science is you now let’s try a new thing and see what happens and science is telling a new story or New Perspective of a story and you know I think that that’s been lost over the past many years Society The Sciences inquiry science is asking questions and wondering why thing happens and how something happens and trying to figure that out and I think that we’ve sort of collectively as a larger society have sort of lost that Focus write the word crowdsourced crowd-source funding crowdsourced ideas and editing and an art I mean you were talking about that at that photo gallery exhibit and that’s a great example if you would call that a crowd-sourced ethnographic oh yeah photojournalism nice oh yeah that’s cool that’s that’s exciting time so I’m also wondering now do you have do you do you or your organization the Center provide any kind of consulting services or any kind of where you could be hired or you could be sort of commissioned to do research or to consult on Research I don’t know that we’re I don’t know that anybody is really hired to do research cuz wouldn’t it be fantastic if someone will pay for that but that doesn’t happen if we do get hired as consultants for a variety of things so either individuals within the organization or the collective organization May consult on certain projects or consult on like creative curriculum for a particular thing and we have individuals who are consulted on court cases and I’m legal issues so so there’s a lot of that we also get hired by professionals like to teach professional workshops on various topics so that happens as well because we’re a nonprofit although those things are often we you know ask for fee cuz usually the people who were asking for these services are people who can pay for it but what going out to the schools we’re going to colleges in touch or we have a student group asked us to come and do something with them or like what you know we go to somebody’s community of answer something we may ask for an honorarium but we’re going to do this stuff for free so we really depend on our donors and our contributors and the people who support us to kind of give us the funding that we need in order to do what we want to do and and to publishing and all the other stuff so our journals available for free most of our Outreach staff and education program is all for free so yeah a lot of what we do depends on donations as opposed to people actually hiring us officially to do something right on that sounds like a healthy well-rounded multi Revenue stream nonprofit you’re definitely fulfilling your mission in so many beautiful dimensions and I’m just really happy to know that we’ve connected to some really feel better about living in the world with you more offline 2 just to explore some of these Consulting opportunities that you have and see what we’re about and all of that stuff were completely volunteer so none of us are paid for what we do I don’t run a paycheck nobody wants a paycheck that’s completely volunteer and yeah we’re just we’re just trying to let you know we just try to bring it enough funds to keep going and to keep doing what we’re doing and to expand so we’re actually going to be expanding our face-to-face education program out to Chicago over the next few months so Craig can you do that that’s well thank you so much that’s great I feel like it’s it’s really refreshing to to hear that there are people out there who are so dedicated to the cause that it’s that you did not just going to slam the door in your face if you don’t write a check if you know the first five minutes if you’re not going to bill me for this podcast interview right now about an hour into it is do you have a sort of committee or task force or team or just even a person who is either because they are a trauma Survivor or because it’s just near and dear to their hearts whatever reason is there you do consent workshops in self-defense or rape and assault prevention and any any more of the or any any of the sort of preventative and treatment kind of education unpreparedness we do have programs around consent we don’t really specifically talk about self defense or or right prevention in the standard sense so we don’t really talk about here’s what you can do to prevent being raped we talked about here’s what you can do to not rape someone because really this is not on the victim this is on the perpetrator but we also talked about you know here’s other ways that you might think about your sexual self and your identity in the power dynamics that you may interact with and find consensual outlets for some of your interests and behaviors and the citiz and you know we talked about a wide range of those things so it would be great if the people who are doing the Rape Crisis counseling and who are just in the trenches of dealing with battered women and in and going in and and doing you know investigations to catch meant to prosecute the perpetrators of all ages if they were I would let it would be great if in it you know in a perfect world they were seeking you all to educate themselves on better prevention and better version or diversion from the criminal whole that the response like they’re coming as the First Responders two incidents that would have been prevented by a proper education on all sides right and we do have we do have information so some of our researchers and and because we have people who are social workers who have conducted research through us who have published on how to do how to have a sex positive approach to handling victims how to have a sex positive approach to handling offenders and that these approaches can really help reduce crime can reduce negative stigma can reduce it comes cool is that would that be on your website or at some if I if I can follow up with you later cool okay well alright I feel like it’s this is yes. A real blessing and I just want to thank you again for your time and generous sharing of great info so with that said do you want to give the website and any other maybe upcoming events or anything else you’d like to promote and the website is positive sexuality. Org journal and that’s Journal of positive sexuality. Org we have our anniversary party coming up this July so if you want to be invited and want to be a part of that anniversary party will be a fundraiser you can contact me at Emily Emily at positive sexuality. Org or you can go to our website and put in your email address and then you’re on our newsletter list and you’ll get information through our newsletter about our party and we’re hoping we’re putting together an academic conference for next year so look on our website check things out if you go to sex pause khan.com so s e x p o s c o n. Com there’s going to be updated information they’re probably starting in the next couple of weeks for our positive sexuality conference coming up in 2018 in Burbank all right that’s very exciting thank you again yeah that’s me alright thank you so much again and I will hopefully I’ll be in touch soon thank you for listening to the touch of Time Podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition of sustaining and improving the podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite sex if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been at kontrapunkt. Com Thomas gay