Dave in Phoenix

Sex Work Policy Reform Activism with Dave in Phoenix TPP165


In this episode I’m joined by a passionate advocate and activist for sex workers’ rights. Dave in Phoenix has been on the front lines of the prostitution decriminalization movement for a long time and has great insights to share about the Phoenix Goddess Temple case and much more.

Please visit his website at:

We discuss:

  • the story of liberated christians
  • swing conventions in the 90s
  • “onward christian swingers” new times
  • the issue of single men in poly/swinger groups and the argument for sex workers
  • the history of the Phoenix Goddess Temple
  • Dave’s views on sexuality, religion, and law
  • the need for legal healing, massage, and touch
  • concerned about prostitution laws
  • “felony criminal enterprise” much higher
    crime than just prostitution which is just
    a misdemeanor
  •  testing the viability suggested donation vs. a fee arrangement for a sex act
  •  historical overview of Canadian prostitution laws
  • in-private consenting adult sex work vs
    street prostitution
  • beyond the myth that all prostitutes are forced into it
  • how escort agencies bend the law
  • harm reduction
  • Canadian charter of rights and freedoms
  • in current U.S. legal climate, escorts being assaulted by bag clients can’t help each other and are more afraid of the policy than bad clients
  • challenge to California prostitution laws
  • Sex Workers Outreach Project
  • Alternative funding models for sex “volunteers”
  •  the grey area of sugar daddies and friends with benefits
  • the potential and precedents for a club/membership model
  • the commonality of prostitution in the times of the bible
  • patriarchal double standards of adultery
  •  thoughts on bonobos and the myth of monogamy
  • my prayers for Tracy who I interviewed in this episode: https://tantrapunk.com/taking-a-stand-for-sacred-sexuality-with-tracy-elise-tpp36

About Dave:
I come from a very conservative background. 20+ years ago I was very active in evangelical, conservative ministries, including Bible Study Fellowship, Christian Business Men’s Committee, as well as serving as deacon in a conservative Presbyterian Church. For many years I believed in the inerrant word of God–God said it and that settles it.

But I met a couple where both husband and wife were going to Lutheran Theological Seminary to be ministers. They started pointing out how in Hebrew and Greek there were obvious contradictions in scripture and some things I thought were crystal clear were quite foggy. Being interested in supporting my conservative beliefs concerning sexuality, I set out to do more research to prove my position correct that sex was wrong unless you were married and then only with your wife. I read many books by theologians and those that were experts in Greek and Hebrew and slowly, over time, I found the evidence was overwhelming that I had been very wrong in my traditional beliefs. I became very upset that the church would mistranslate and misapply the bible to promote an agenda, which was not based on the original biblical texts.

In the mid 1980’s I attended many Stan Dale’s Human Awareness Institute’s “Sex, Love and Intimacy” workshops in Calif., where I learned and experienced the group dynamics of true love, intimacy and fulfilling sexuality far beyond just thrusting intercourse. While these groups were often closer to New Age type beliefs, I saw more Christ like love than what I had ever experienced in the traditional church. Too often the church is too busy reaching UP to God to reach OUT to each other. There are more people in the world starving for love and affection than starving for food, but when it comes to meaningful intimate interaction, the church is too often “God’s Frozen People.”

In my childhood I was very shy. I was scared of women and didn’t date till I was a senior in college. I never went to a dance. But gradually I became more outgoing and married. But more than 20 years ago, after being resingled, I was insecure and depressed. Many women reacted negatively to me, sensing neediness and insecurity. But slowly, over time, after experience the Stan Dale workshops, some sex surrogacy training, Esalen massage training and lots of G-spot massage experience I found women strangely attracted to me…especially once they started to experience my touch. For many years I thought all men were naturally, wonderfully intimate and I was just far behind. But so many women started telling me they had seldom experienced men with good touch and intimacy skills and I began to wonder why. I have concluded that many men want to be more intimate but haven’t learned how.

Example: A couple had me do Esalen massage on the women. After a while the man came upstairs to see how we were doing and got turned on seeing his nude girlfriend on my table. He jumped in wanting to be sexual with her. As he was poking and groping her body parts he asked how things were going. She replied “Great until you came up”. Sometimes honest communications can be embarrassing but he did get the message that at that time she wanted the intimacy of massage not poking and groping.

On the other hand, not everyone is going to become interested in real intimacy. Being intimate is much more threatening and difficult for many than just having recreational sex with strangers. But for me I don’t enjoy sex without intimacy, but often enjoy intimacy even without sex. My purpose is to show the various sexual intimacy options so people can relate to whatever they choose is most fulfilling for them.

I enjoy physical intimacy with a wide variety of women who also enjoy good touch, cuddling, massage, caressing etc. I have lots of ideas for more intimacy based on many years of teaching intimacy workshops for couples, counseling many couples as well as hearing from a huge number of men that are seeking more intimacy from sex workers.  I have been a speaker at national swing conventions hosted massage rooms and led the Phoenix Couples Group that had 350 participants.   I have been professionally trained and teach Esalen massage, which many women have enjoyed. I offer free massage to sex workers/dancers/massage therapists. Or, I offer what I call a non-sexual cuddle and caress experience so many women enjoy. Yes, I also enjoy sex but not “just sex” without intimacy with the great sex.

One of the problems I face in dating many “normal” women is that as one said, “I am looking for a man who values monogamy as much as I do.” The problem is they only see cheating as the alternative to monogamy. But because I have such different views, finding like minded single women is very hard. Obviously sex workers often face the same issues in their own personal relationships.

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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin podcast episode number 165 I’m being joined by Dave in Phoenix who is has a very interesting and very important role in my life and in the development of what’s becoming kind of a character which is this Township Punk this is sort of my my self-proclaimed super heroic Persona and it really was birthed to be very deeply honest this this this passion and this energy for sexual education sexuality education and sexual freedom in the rights to be a dignified sex worker and sexual healer all of these passions came really from my disgust and outraged when I first heard about what happened at the Phoenix goddess Temple and that invigorated me to because I saw an absence of a really solid movement within Tantra even though I had been a practitioner and a student and was kind of developing my skill sets and my credibility to have a practice and to operate in that field and I had some back on and I have really assumed there was a much stronger and a much more radical and much more proactive in in even revolutionary kind of solidarity movement within Tantra and when I discovered the what happened with the Phoenix goddess temple with Tracy at least it was really heartbreaking for me to feel like there wasn’t a strong sense of a movement like the way that the Black Panthers and the American Indian movement and civil rights movement and the gay rights movement and so many other movements that have had solidarity with political prisoners and with persecuted persecuted locations or or localities that there was a mycelial network of support that I was used to coming from that background and radical movements and I felt like it was severely lacking in this case and I don’t know all the facts and I wasn’t there and I can’t from my own personal experience make any any reasonable claims about the facts of the case all I can say is that I felt that the response was abysmal and very very few people seem to be keeping a breast with the proceedings of Tracy’s case and before the trial and end in after the trial and one of those few people who is here to talk about his perspective in his background that’s that’s Dave and he’s one of the few people that I have a very remote connection with just a just a lot of adoration for the work that he’s done and if you’ve never heard of the things got his Temple or Tracy at least please hang in there were about to get a full dose of the story on but first I want to just say thank you for hearing me out Dave to get caught up to speed and where I’m coming from and why I appreciate what you’ve done so much and and just say please do share with us here as much as you can or would like to about your personal background and what makes you a a very passionate delegate and well I guess the advocate is probably better word for the sex workers rights movement in general very good then I come from sort of a very different background but we kind of wind up in the same place at least in Broad broad generalities I was regionally in my childhood very shy kid scared to death of women that they tell I was a junior in college then people kind of say I might have made up for lost time I was also very conservative Christian Evangelical Christian Church I was a counselor for the Billy Graham crusade I originally grew up in Minneapolis which was the headquarters of the Billy Graham Association I was also very active and very fundamentalist Christian groups Bible Study Fellowship Christian business men’s can a very repressed sexually in with women and everything then I gradually grew I think my first life changing experiences were series of workshops over a number of years who founded by Standale human awareness Institute out of San Francisco with workshops at Harbin Hot Springs Resort in Northern California very powerful combined with sexuality in different forms very well done over the years I went many numbers of times I also once again in a relationship and brought a woman there that had a very powerful life-changing positive experience so that kind of made me get into the opposite of what I was as a child very outgoing or so I’ve always been interested in the intimacy aspects of of sensuality notches the the the sexuality so then I have to after that I moved to Phoenix and I started exploring with the biblical aspects of sex of sexuality I’m very analytical person I can came from the CPA background so I don’t believe just what people tell me I kind of have to examine for myself and started doing a lot of Bible study on the sexuality issues and found that at the conservative this really didn’t have any biblical basis I mean back in biblical times man could have as many wives and concubines as he wanted adultery was a violation of man’s in husband’s sexual physical rights over his women in all sorts of things then I met another Christian it was following the same path of the traffic came from a clothing-optional group in Los Angeles who wound up being here in Phoenix and we got together and says Jesus is a lot of Christians out there that are guilt-ridden everything about their sexuality was maybe they don’t really need to be and we formed a group called liberated Christians still have the website low price., though I haven’t upgraded it for many years we also been contacted by the lifestyle organization the national Swing Swing organization and did a bunch of presentations at the national Lifestyles convention I will probably in the 90s sometime at this point then we were picked up by a local newspaper called new times I had we were on the front page and headline I just looked it up still in the internet up the article on the front page headline find word Christian swingers looking for God in all the wrong places try this Sunday meeting and one of my favorites sentences in the article was this group’s introductory literature may be the only publication on Earth will you find the phrase Old Testament and vibrating nipple clamps on the same page typically swing group polyamory but not extreme living together and that’s for a thing after that article came out in New Times which had somehow they found her phone number buy some links to our website and that sort of thing and we had like a hundred phone calls from single guys as well as of a couple we have 350 people at one point in the couple’s group was a phoenix couples liberated Christians group and 10 question became what do we do with all these single guys because couples for good reasons want to be with other couples and that first got me interested in sex work area as a practical solution perhaps effect I had one Asian guy I remember distinctly calling me from college he says he’s never had sex before and he wanted to have his first experience with someone that knew what they were doing and they have led to the sex sex work area that I became interested in as a viable profession of helping people. Just just pure sexuality anyway years went by for years I had a phoenix private list with about a thousand people are on at the network with various escorts and in Phoenix and and other people and Tracy somehow contacted me and got on the list she started sharing with me some of her and her interest and experiences and wanted to form the Phoenix goddess Temple and even though I am not I’ve got a follower of Tantra in the religious sense I’m basically opened all religious beliefs I think there’s different paths to God and everything so I wasn’t really interested in the in the goddess you should totally supportive of what she was trying to do with healing people in the size and touching and all those other things but I was concerned about the prostitution laws and Warner you can’t just claim to be a religion and the First Amendment freedom of religion does a prostitution laws without going into a recession operated for number of years Polly had a had to change one location because of zoning and then wound up in the night sky Phoenix temple place they ultimately wound up with then they were rated and by the police 39 wonderful lemon lift Tracy prior to the arrest and then seeing her import exchange lots of emails over the years discussing various issues in the legal issues around what she was doing I met her once interesting lie cuz I met a gal there from the Christian background father was a minister in another country so we were interested in that aspect she also knew about the and that’s why we had a great time Burly got his kind of kind of session so then 39 people were arrested in the big raid 1 convince them they were they drop their and then dilated I think 38 wound up being indicted one was a cleaning lady that had nothing to do with anything anything else going on and the pre-trial process with with a very long time she was originally rested and I had one indictment with a million-dollar Bond as if you were a murderer then there was a second indictment which at one point had didn’t cancel the first behind so she had a two million-dollar bond for a while until the six six eating indictment replace the original document anyway long story of your process of the courts and all the pulmonary stuff they were threatened with the 40-50 years in prison if they didn’t plead guilty they did that because you got up to those kinds of terms because and it was a felony criminal Enterprise which is a much higher level of prosecution than just crossed a higher level of crime and just prostitution which is a misdemeanor but they often did that in Phoenix so they had criminal Enterprise and then every time they control money exchanging it was a felony laundry charge so they piled on all the charges and I was in the hearing where the judge gave four judges all together but one of the judges gave what they call a Donald advisement if you’re found guilty of all these you could face 40-50 years in prison so that scared all the gals they all took plea agreements most all four felonies a butt with probation instead of going facing going to prison Tracy was the only one that held out and went to trial went to a jury I thought the judge was very good there was a lot of big legal arguments about how much you can bring religion into the issue it was clear that there is no first amendment protection I can go through all the legal cases what’s the could you don’t have first amendment protection against state criminal laws but every States when the Supreme Court declared the Federal Protection of religion Free Speech religion along with did not apply all the states develop their own freedom of religion hacks including Arizona and there was a Hennessy case or the Georgia cases that have to be discussed anyway so I was hoping she’d rely more on that unfortunately the a lot of her testimony was very long the judge gave her free raining on everything but it was mostly preaching goddess goddess teachings an app to the jury my opinion didn’t have enough of the legal arguments there was also a lot of witnesses some of the top people the founder of the human sexuality was testify there he’s a great guy even Dennis Hof of the runs Nevada brothels was there and he’s playing this was no way to run a brothel what you take a donation at the end of the. At the end of the session you on the throne or whatever it was called you put your donation of those suggested what was on the website and in order to violate the state prostitution law which leads to criminal Enterprise you have to have a few rangement for a sex act and so I was arguing she should be hurt anymore that wasn’t the arrangement anyway those were brought up but she got it a lot of side issues which weren’t really relevant to my humble opinion so it’s finally after what was it for 5 months of trial judge I thought was very fair went to the jury and we thought you know how many days will the jury deliberate and everything within a couple hours Jerry was ready to announce the verdict I had gone home most people have gone home we got calls we all ran back to the courthouse and she was found guilty on all counts and sentenced to four and a half years in prison when she is now in she then filed an appeal the peels been in process now for a couple of years and all sorts of delays in the appeal the court appointed attorney hope she also acted as our own the Turning which I’ve always thought was a big mistake because she was already really more about what wonderful goddess work she was doing rather than the law and I don’t mean to be over critical but I think she would have been done better if she had had an attorney rather than representing herself so we finally got to the appeal stays she filed a brief her own appeal attorney suggested she not get to her hopes up too much because unfortunately I think the issues are against her then a couple of months ago or 3 weeks ago actually the state made their reply which got into all of the typical reasons why the state has a compelling interest in the prostitution law all sorts of other be crying all the terrible things that happen which is mostly related Street prostitution simple but that was hard to overcome so we were still in the appeals estate actually if she gets out with good behavior Plus credit for time served she might be out of prison in December we don’t even know if that appeals court will make a final decision before she’s released which is sort of ridiculous so I’ve always totally support what she is done though I think her at legal legal aspects were weak and that’s one of my story my background and how I got related to the temple wow well thank you for sharing that and thank you also for being for being honest and this is a place to to learn and to grow together with the right intentions and so I appreciate and I don’t I don’t feel any reactivity emotionally to take me to pick sides and order or I wouldn’t advise anybody that’s could a critical thinker to overlook whatever dissenting opinions are may be of any of any facts or any proceedings like I said before I don’t have a enough of any of the background information or experience to have much of an educated opinion on any of the stuff other than just the for me it’s the this is a unique opportunity for these issues to be sort of officially etched in the record of Western Civilization for as long as it exists but I would say I got a girlfriend I I’ve totally think of prostitution laws ridiculous and should be changed I just got back from Canada to Canada every year for the last 15 years in the Toronto area where we don’t have is a sure everybody’s safe her everything’s aboveboard they don’t have these kind of issues so even though I thought she defended it a little wrong I’ve always been supportive of what she does and all the good things we had by and I think about you we should have decriminalization of prostitution like much of the world does and we wouldn’t have this a lot of the problems that are associated with it I mean stay probably spend a million to $2000000 to prosecute her in 38 good Folks at the truck at the temple in the court system UI money could have been much more wisely smell than on something that had some real victims also one other interesting aspect that you really gets me upset is a one of the vice cops testified he been like a Vice Cop for 15 years and he made the statement have all the rest I’ve done and everything was undercover and with Vise work I have never yet met a prostitute quote that shows the profession she was forced into there’s something in her background so the idea in Phoenix and now around the country is we have to arrest sex workers look like for that turn we have to arrest sex workers to save because no woman in the right mind would be a sex worker that’s the attitude we have when the when the cop said that on the stand Tracy popped up and said you don’t know me and the cops as well I don’t know you that well I’m sure if I dug into your background I would find some abuse for some reason that you didn’t you needed to be you needed to do this and be a sex worker both in Phoenix and basically around the country funded hugely by these anti sex worker and I work groups to take a few isolated cases usually from the street which is totally different from your sex work is dividing the two things Street work obviously which I’ve had no connection with and private Consulting consenting adults like the Phoenix temple and zillions of other escorts a lot of the making your way through through college that are there by choice but we don’t make a distinction about that and there’s huge funding millions of dollars going in the organization to propagate the idea that all sex work is abusive women and therefore we need to save them and lately it’s been reduced man so they’re going more after sings with customers now has a way of reducing this man so hopefully no women will want to be a sex worker be so that’s cuz that’s the big issues that we face it really gets my call with the temple case and all the zillions of other people that have been prosecuted that are doing in private consenting adult sex work right yeah thank you for being up all those are so many important points of of talking points and in places to take action from all in what you shared and we’re in this very backward time right now in special United States and appreciate you bringing in a more Global Perspective and really the the words that the worst harm reduction come to mine for the forward-thinking progressive policies around drug addiction that have also been lead in other parts of the world in at the US drug war is not the War on Drugs the war on sex workers it’s all very much well it’s a Wyndham Chomsky would say it’s not it’s not a conspiracy it’s institutional analysis is not a conspiracy theory if you if you study what’s going on so from your perspective do you want to talk about what you feel especially of the religious background what are the forces what are we how would you describe the forces that are justifying in their minds and their budgets that level of of budgeting for what you could argue is a victimless crime well there are I can’t remember her name is one special Advocate has been wrong for years this written all these research reports on the evils of prostitution us because they are about people mostly street workers and they’re armed and there is a problem street workers that have come from abusive backgrounds that are forced by by economically reasons and that sort of thing I happen to believe that street work is a public nuisance is completely different than private checks work we should have other Alternatives like in calls or or Jones week been tried in Europe but of really really failed the woman that sort of started all of this been going on for like 10 years this is nothing new was just accelerated in recent years the Canadian studies calls I’ve always been legal in Canada however until a few years ago in calls were illegal and agencies Living Color’s call living off the avails what’s the main problem was in calls really go so you can get people off the streets and in an Impulse there was a big fight in the court challenging the laws for printing call and agency living off the avails agencies always thrived in Canada was never a problem his agency’s clearly Soul time and that sex isn’t the word any agencies are being prosecuted o that way but everyone was afraid open Indian calls which would be safer than alcohols Dover number of yours are way too started my case that wound up in the Superior Court of Canada Sac Superior Court of Canada that is a judge ruled 1/2 ruling was one of the longest ruling is in Canadian history of her detail that she went into with all the testimony from both sides part of the testimony was from these groups from the United States that did Friend of the Court briefs about all the evils of sex work the judge took all this into consideration and basically discarded all of that is being biased with a nun representative group and she ruled that the Canadian prostitution law for incalls basically and living off the avails was unconstitutional their constitution is a Charter of Rights and Freedoms which part of that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is about the security of the person and security of the person has been defined as harm reduction in the eyes of the court and ruled that the laws against prostitution without call is always Leon but the other forms of prostitution violated the charge of racing in friedensburg Jennifer security of the person because it created harm so it was the crown light at the the stated then appealed and stem appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada the Supreme Court of Canada upheld Superior Court ruling declaring it unconstitutional the prostitution laws of Canada based on harm reduction something happened subsequent them c36 which is probably going to get rejected also which then made it sort of the Year peter than Swedish example made it illegal for the customer conservative Harper prime minister was against Sheehy there more than some very conservative sects work was terrible and pass the law that made it a crime for the customer even though it was totally legal for a sport most all the major cities police Jason said they were not going to change their enforcement that they were going to follow the harm reduction model of the Supreme Court and basically there’s been no address in are bothering in private consenting adults sex with customers it did bring charges against an Asian Sea which is in process is not going to come back to the courts until January most legal experts believe it will be able to see 36 level to be held unconstitutional again the whole idea is harm reduction safety of the security of the individual under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms obviously the same thing would apply here but we have these well-funded groups National groups we have the hunt Sisters of the famous oil kind of tycoons have been a big girl order of millions of dollars I’ve actually gone there are nonprofit organizations I’ve actually gone and see their their tax filings r990bts background and see the millions of dollars being being funneled into it we also had a big thing in Phoenix the governor and the former Governor instigator that this big Council on sex work made in prostitution and one of the biggest organizers and supporters was mrs. McCain as in Senator McCain who ran for president on unfortunately sick right now but serious illness so we had all these legislative changes in Arizona including making it a felony to promote or assist before that there were about four local boards for people were sharing information warning people about bad clients escort warning others about that clients fake police officers that would would try and get free services that sort of thing when the new Arizona law passed that basically all the local board shutdown nobody wants to be committing a felony for assisting in prostitution my board I greatly reduced I stopped in the ass I stopped any reviews basically it’s now just Legal Information and general stuff but nothing like it was before one of the examples which goes back a few years before these new Arizona laws were passed making everything more risky for everyone of course now with no floss that’s even more extreme Now All Aboard you shut down so there is no safety and in that but I had a rather dramatic experience Health Department as sort of their their battering ram into the industry I’m curious in New Hampshire are they is it is there any specifications from the health department or health code that that are trying to set the rules for the industry for the porn industry their house we are hoping for more people more to join you know start producing they would have to try to regulate it but I don’t know if they would because I really don’t think they would I adhere to the same of you know guidelines as as far as testing goes as the only difference is we provide them with testing we we go through this last we have this very detailed checklist I think it was inspired by Nikki Benz I think it’s called and he will try to do it is legitimate is possible the only difference is we’re not paying Los Angeles or Las Vegas free because no dependents small company but you know we talked with other producers about importing Talent from Vegas and Los Angeles and you know kind of like it’s a long journey to make the asacol responsibility to keep it clean and keep it regulating type of business you just have to have trust that all people are you know I’m doing the right thing around that is because then yeah I think that I think like Outlets sexually here you know I said you know if you will actually liberated place like you know I even thought about you some Leaf peeping directed in the professional studio shoot up or down with your spouse just that sounds like a great guy honestly before you even were saying this stuff I could I was just it was a premonition that you would be talking about this because I I just felt like you were going to probably end up working in some capacity with the Chamber of Commerce of wherever whatever region or whatever sort of municipality or me to Sally’s and actually help that like what you’re you can’t you know you can’t afford your Public Works projects you know your new parks are being closed down for whatever reason well here we got the screws it’s going to be amazing yeah I can see it now and start building and I’m almost filling my gas tank to start driving out there right now I can of gas its people have been wanting you know it’s been it’s been on my not just a to-do list but actually really it’s it’s it’s the lot a lot of the stuff is is I can see it happening and also I I I want to if it’s not already being taken for some other obviously a worthy cause I feel like the love Free or Die state is going to be the hashtag that I talk to Subway to get a handle on that it’s all you it’s you if you can take that and run with it if she if it works but I feel like that’s good it’s the best I feel like you have a lot of love but I like a lot of love yeah I know I feel it I feel I feel you said you were a Healer and you seem you seem like very empathetic yeah this won’t this to me you know all of the trauma that I have witnessed that I’ve experienced ice I can imagine that this is would be a place for people that veteran died literally I mean you know they call it in the adult industry we say that you’re a civilian if you’re not in front of you in if you’re not in front of the camera and doing the stuff for on the street or wherever you’re a civilian and so if that’s the case which I really truly believe it is then we need to have VA programs in hospitals in a note and benefits and we’re doing a public service for helping living out everyone’s fantasies for them if they don’t have the courage or the resources to make them happen so for that I like to be treated with this much if not you know as much love and respect and dignity and resources as veterans violence and brutality in Warfare civilians is military yeah that’s cool yeah and we aren’t we aren’t we know we were lying about reliving some sort of childhood, it wasn’t about servitude or Surrender sometimes it was just the process to the session would be the process to get to the Aftercare to get to that hug to get to that approval of being told you did a good job you know and when I realize that I thought there’s so much more I’ve actually I’ve had plenty of clients for a while there it was kind of weird they were widows widowers their wearers like I was attacking little words that were in various ways and people don’t understand that Sexual Energy can be incredibly therapeutic and healing you know when there’s something fundamentally wrong with that especially you know I mean now I mean Dairy mention you know I mean every day and I just kept having these handmade in handmaid’s tale things going through my mind and and now to be apart of Swap and to be keto on the inside track knowing what’s going on with this legislation here to decriminalize effort I am filled with hope and love all over again no more despair or fear I feel like this could really I meant to be alive right now at this time and to be here and now in this state I feel very very honored and lucky absolutely why I feel very honored and lucky that we are having this conversation you were exactly the voice of the representative that I wanted to find and connect with its in this is really an amazing amazing invigorating conversation and I just I just want to thank you again so much and you know we’ve got a little bit of time left I think we covered most of what I was super excited and looking forward to discussing I guess I would like to ask if you want to talk about the kind of support that you need from people in the area from people abroad people anywhere in the world listening to this but what what do you need to help your chapter really get to the to the point where were you have all your dreams are coming true and you know you have the people power and the skill sets what were you what are your pain points and what do you need so that that can just be put out there and it is a prayer absolutely absolutely awesome and I’m sex worker Outreach project is a nonprofit we do accept donations we accept recurring donations donations I mean just to be an ally to a sex worker to be supportive and you know aware that their work is real work and emotionally laboring work to know the sex work as a form of emotional and physical labor and that nobody story is is representative of all sex where you know and I think that the presence of sex workers in social movement come together and try to fight this and you have to fight what gone but it is a tubal refuse up sex workers bank accounts and it’s happened the money seems suspicious that’s unacceptable yeah yeah that’s you that’s the way to to bypass So Many Factors whether it’s the pimp violence or the banks or the state or even Amazon not wanting your wishlist to be you know used for compensation whatever it is the terms that you have to been in bed will I have to say that the my biggest public service announcement for anybody that might be in your network who listens to this is that I really hope that anyone listening who is a sex worker who has the u.s. exposed to these Financial choke point issues invest time in studying the whole cryptocurrency movement starting with Bitcoin and in aetherium but but you can accelerate that process if you start to look into joining the platform of spankchain which is bringing together all of the activism all of the the really Advanced cryptocurrency solutions for being your own bank literally being your own bank where you have peer-to-peer Financial transactions you can sell they will be yeah they will be providing a lot of solutions for the industry and for the producers and performers to be empowered independently and off the rails of the money system we don’t need to do our dirty work without your dirty Fiat is how I feel McGregor’s Outreach project we have like a meme donation thing you can donate cooked difference NFL Karma Dakshin and and how how sex workers are the difference between trafficking educate yourself some people have been looking for what seems like an ideal future to me or all of the the glory and the beauty of the healing in the transformation that is possible and also the the sort of in the streets marches and the activism going to take to get there and a couple of I guess you’re silly but up at the memes have come to me and one is it you know people I remember chanting in the streets protesting Wars and logging and you all kinds of pollution would not the people we would always chant whose streets are our streets and I can hear this echoing Cruise sheets are seeds coming out with our seats and then you can also got allies and civilians involved right thing that ever since I started looking into it swapped but I’ve ever felt like we’ll all of the the Financial Funding necessary to do real political work lobbying in legislation and all that stuff I feel like there’s got to be a way to solicit the the buyers of sex work the purchasers of the material that the funeral of the client’s right of the clients are you so mean maybe PornHub can put a donate button to swap you know somewhere I mean set stuff like that I would love to see the financing for all of the stuff that you have in your bucket list of dreams to make come true for this industry and for this movement that that the money if the people who can afford to pay for their further their fetish or for their experience or for their media everybody and you know what I mean I come from the the green business Eco business startup kind of seen in in LA and it was a no-brainer that you would want to launch your startup having a dollar of every purchase or a percentage of your purpose so that you could have the the pr potential of putting out press releases were you talk about how you give back as a social impact or I mean even PornHub has done a lot of cool stuff like that and I don’t mean to keep harping on them but because they’re the biggest conglomerate really that the industry absolutely and you know that they’re behind them right that I was either going to let my contact continue to be over there in cream to the channel myself because it because you know we can continue and have more follow-ups to this conversation but I certainly would love to explore some of your insights in the industry and I have some yes yeah I wanted to add you know how that Whole Foods you know if you have to you have to be a squeaky wheel gets the grease and House of weird that you were is this is thrilling to me I know that there’s a there’s worse things in the world than having pornstars solicit you on your doorstep like door-to-door canvassing for help me on Monday to take your singing telegrams you know what the my name is you could use the conservative rhetoric against him and say we’re here to clean up the adult industry sign here and give us a check what do you mean well I know where else next workers never would never when they used to pack meat and the muckrakers had to blow the whistle and that’s how we have ratio any conservative how do I I subscribed to say the r word regulation but I will say any sort of public outcry about working conditions that’s all we need you know and Industry within the industry of people like you who know what performers need what the issues are and can represent that and it’s not coming top down it’s not coming from you know sideswiping from weird organizations with too much money trying to push agendas where they don’t belong and some people know what I’m talking about there and some people don’t but it’s what they did with the keywords you know trafficking of course people wanted to sign off on that piece of aeon I support you know anti-trafficking laws of course I do and so what we could do is we could eat give them a dose of their own medicine like you said hi we’re going to clean up your industry and fine hair like that cuz that’s how they do so many things when they say you know that people don’t read the fine print when they when they sign initiatives to get on the ballot you know they read the sort of sensationalist headline that skews the facts to some moral kind of you get boxed in Morley by the by the by the headline of whatever it is and so that it’s it’s like appealing to logical fallacies for anyone to want to do that but yeah I mean this is really it’s actually truly the holiest and most most sort of medic there’s there’s a way for all of the people to I mean excellent performers have the legal space to do this right then then the medical aspect will I think it’s going to naturally organically become a safer environment if you’re not having to be underground in the hide from you know the the filming commission and fucking cops and at the neighbors and you could actually have facilities that work up Captain staff and you know and fungus were like just clean to the places I mean that’s what people say about the all of those secondary crime things that go along with Vice and things being underground and the black market economy you know if when you when you legalize drugs all of those secondary cramps go away and so this is a war on sex and we need to end the war on drugs and the war on sex and these problems will sell themselves in the free market so it’s going to happen New Hampshire you know get ready full medical benefits of cannabis right and I’m actually is for you I think what will happen is that is that is that the Cheeto person will get a reverse gangbang by a bunch of Tantra see the goddess and he will want to transform United States into one giant orgiastic goddess Temple to heal the planet from all the patriarchy that’s my that’s my vote I’m going to put that are you trying to turn me on now I try I try not to but sometimes I can’t help it it just happens thank you for that well yeah so we it’s been one of the most delightful hours of my life at sharing this time with you and I’d like to ask you now to give us the links to everything that you want to share and that you’re involved with and close this out with some final words calls-to-action slogans from the front lines whatever you like to share please take your time. Thank you it’s been an honor and I’m I’m I’m pretty sure my cheeks are going to hurt from smiling too so that’s as wot USA. O r g basically you where you can find me I just would like to do everything I can and vegetation Security building in Albuquerque beautiful thank you awesome alright I see well yeah let’s let’s call it a podcast and let’s be in touch and I will I will be in touch again very soon thank you so much and have a wonderful evening. Smiley and you’re coming over here thank you for listening to the touch upon podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition of sustaining and improving the podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email event at Tantra Punk. Com Thomas Day