Sacred Sexual Economics with Charles Eisenstein TPP129


Charles Eisenstein PicIn this episode I’m joined by one of my favorite authors, Charles Eisenstein. After studying his books The Ascent of Humanity and Sacred Economics I’ve been deeply moved by the level of insight and analysis he provides.  As tantra works to re-weave sacred sexual-spiritual unity, Charles’ work has been re-weaving the material and sacred realms by deconstructing patriarchal stories of separation, and providing road maps for more holistic value exchange rooted in ancestral wisdom.

It was a pleasure to explore topics of sacred sexuality and sexual healing with him, as the “oldest profession on earth” has become one of the most exploitative and desacrilized.

He paints an empowering vision for a future of sacred sexual economics.  I was imbued with a compelling sense of awe, feeling a new flow of energy and hope that a globally integrated culture may well evolve to a high level of maturity.

Please connect with him at:

About Charles:

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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin hello dear beloved welcome to Township Punk podcast episode number 129 I have the Exquisite pleasure of being joined by Charles eisenstein a very well-known prolific author I just finished sacred economics one of his Classics now and it’s really been a powerful resource in the last several years people have been really am using it as enlightening guide to re-engineering their local economies and being exposed to so many different Shadow problems and just things you wouldn’t consider if you didn’t do a deep exploration into these topics and then it’s really helped to support like I said a lot of them knew visioneering and new applications for how we can lift more beautifully on Earth together and I’m really just it’s all seeping into me now I’m really marinating in a lot of a lot of this material and there were brushes with some of the topics that I’m more focused on in this show which is the you know how we can rebuild and revivify the sacred feminine and work with economic and political systems to really facilitate the honorable and charitable Good Deeds of those Among Us who really are called to be healers in a more intimate way and that’s something that has been really distorted and commodified and corrupted and it really negative way but it does have a potential to become a sacred economic environment so that’s what I’m most excited about getting into with you in a bit Charles but please if you would spend as much time as you’d like to kind of fill us in on your personal story how you evolve into becoming this some very scholarly thinker and all these topics and Beyond colony and sexual healing and only have that dramatic or exciting a background really but I think what’s PS3 line for me got to Childhood is this abiding sense that there’s deep wrongness in the world that has been presented to me as normal go the story of the self the story of Life the story that tells us how to be human How To Be A Man Out of You women what a successful life books like what the nature of reality is what is what is Rio and normal like it just never seemed normal to me never seemed acceptable and it was I think a lot of children has this kind of almost like this deep loneliness and feeling of betrayal at having been cast into not quite the right world but it it doesn’t take clear form know maybe you’re sitting in the classroom filling out worksheets and beautiful day outside and is party that’s like I’m not supposed to be confined here doing this meaningless trivial work you know that it’s supposed to be more than this so you know I was no different than a lot of other children but I was fortunate enough to have that inner knowing that like I say that a more beautiful world is possible confirmed and then the internet that this isn’t right story isn’t right I had that confirmed through my father’s political influence he was somewhat radical and petitfee commercials and rail against the corporations and you know I read I read books like Silent Spring and 1984 and the people’s History of the United States and became confirmed in my rejection and Rebellion so I still didn’t know what was the origin of the wrongness but that became a lifelong Quest really that eventually led me to write the ascent of humanity which not to trivialize thesis but basically it says that all of the crisis of our civilization Springs from a story that we are telling ourselves mythology that runs our civilization that you could call separation that holds us as separate individuals in a world of other that holds Humanity separate from nature that elevates the control of the other the domination of all things the domination of the body the rising above nature into the realm of technology and spirit Center etc etc the conquest of The Flash all of these play out in different ways as the dissolution the dissolution of community the ruination of May are the oppression of one group to another group all of these are different ways that separation plays out so that’s that’s what got me this it seized me and wouldn’t let go and then you know coming then to a place where I trace the origins of Separation back and I guess I’m not really talking so much about my personal history anymore but Inseparable taking the roots of Separation see how deep they go brought me to a place where I saw the entire journey of Separation as part of a much larger process in which we can come back in to hold us and I guess to bring it back to the personal level that has echoed through my own life as I’ve sought to heal from the internalized story of Separation the wounds of Separation that visit anybody who’s grown up in a modern culture and so that’s what’s so it’s not only am not just like necessarily only a scholar reading books about it but I explore these things in my own life to some extent in some areas with more radicalism an edginess than others but yeah and I am so anyway that’s something of a background of humanity received and where where did it find audiences send in. I know I guess I could say couple things having completed it that I really appreciate that you drive from the work of John zerzan he’s actually a personal friend of mine from back in the day and he was one of the first influences on me to really help fill out the critique of various deep critiques of technology and yes and but then I also did feel that sense of the improper indictment of this original sin of symbolic thought and language and that you could really arbitrarily take that to bipedalism or in in your work you he talked about how it could be you know even a deeper kind of Poker jab a little bit to see if they could be if you could really make that argument for any any part of that process of Separation but there’s so many valuable insights and critiques that he has brought to the world and so I just want to say thank you for presiding him of technology and civilization that is like seriously sit right with me because it basically names this journey as a gigantic mistake and development of Beauty has come from language from the cracks of the human hand and mind and I believe that these gifts that humans have are here for a reason that nature doesn’t make mistakes that doesn’t species that is just think that we are nature’s big mistake is just as much a kind of human exceptionalism as to think that we are here to be the Lords and masters of nature so I think it is that we are a species still in adolescence where we are playing with the gifts of hand in mind but we haven’t turned them yet tour their true purpose as a mass like maybe maybe indigenous cultures did that and then kind of prefigured the mass organism that we are wishing to become but as a civilization we have not yet discovered it correct application of our gifts contributing member of the tribe listen to become full participants in the tribe of all life on Earth and not mature species and I think we’re going through that initiation right now through the converging crises that the story of Separation has generated inconceivably mysterious fast process and and to just like dismiss it all as a gigantic mistake like that’s a beauty and complexity of what humans have created literature and all of Technology a symphony orchestra of the Grand Central Station you know our Collective will and intention toward Beauty tord tordid contributing to the evolution of Life as a totality we would still have technology but it would be motivated very different so that’s like anyway that yeah that’s we could go there or we could go somewhere else kind of builds up to where now we’re getting into this we have this Burning since almost all the time that most of the people that I interact with even in the most extreme radical shamanic communities or new age or permaculture even and the have a sort of a blind maybe techno optimism or just a lack of really feeling that that chunk of critique that that we both appreciate in value and then so there’s this when that’s there there’s a real holness every I really feel the clicking sensitive of wholeness has the wisdom that is a treachery here and we have to I think permaculture really does well to to just understand that progress is inevitable but if you just convert the variables of what you’re building with the materials of what you’re playing with in the sandbox of reality then you can actually be a net-positive on ecology and you can be producing more life and you destroy and that’s really so do you want to just kind of give a overview of sacred economics is sort of him or is it kind of would you say more zoomed in two solutions after a sense of humanity from transitioning to that by saying that need a problem isn’t technology per se but how we apply it and what we think it’s useful for you to talk about technology they are referring to certain kinds of technology that are based on quantification and that aim to exercise very precise control on material reality but there are other modes of technology that aren’t about multiplication and control. My debt that are applicable or useful for things that conventional technology is it and I’m talking about Technologies of the earth of human human energetic field of the non-quantifiable Realms that you might call spiritual like these have gotten valued and even in the story of Separation dismiss is not even being real cuz he can’t measure its not real but I know that your audience is a lot of people who are working with these Technologies especially for the purposes of healing and the development of Consciousness and when you are working with something that is fundamentally unmeasurable or difficult to quantify and it becomes therefore difficult to turn into a commodity and to fix a price for it because money is a form of measure and it works well for the things that can be standardized and Quantified like Commodities so if you’re dealing with something that is qualitative and I will say maybe sacred then it’s really hard to put a price on it doesn’t fit into the economic system that comes along with the rest of the story of Separation that turns the world into an object really that’s one of the main manifestations of Separation to turning up the world into the object and ultimately turning other living beings and objects turn women into objects and ultimately turning men into objects to the conversion of human beings into we could be a sex object consumer taxpayer someone you Market to like that is what economy of separation almost forces us into so if you are doing something that is not about converting nature or relationship into a quantifiable product if you were doing something that is sacred to you it’s going to be difficult to fit into the existing economic Matrix and so one of the motivations behind the book sacred economics is basically what what do we do about that or what do we do on a personal level Academy navigate living in a monetized system where it’s all about the money while doing something at sacred to us and then the second question is how do we change the system what might a system look like that no longer forces us to make these compromises or forces us to choose between doing what we love and doing what it takes to survive this is anyone doing sacred work not not everybody but almost everybody doing sacred work that is motivated by Shilling which is the opposite of converting the world into money is going to run into this problem almost everybody so one thing that comes up as a writer I’m doing this out of a desire to serve the unfolding of the dream of the Earth so should I do whether I’m writing or in a speaking working with people in groups or whatever it’s sacred to me and that means that it’s just seems ridiculous to put a price on it because any price is simultaneously too much and too little I don’t want to be you can’t have this amount of money for any amount is too much but on the other hand any amount has to Google because it’s reducing something infinite to something finally it’s saying it’s only worth whatever amount of money and for me is infinitely precious and sacred and it’s almost an insult to put a price on it and and so one way that I navigate that is to do as much as possible through gift which is welcoming of return gifts but doesn’t put a price on it so if you come to my retreat then you know it’ll be surprised what feels right to you what’s a lined with your sense of equity your sense of rightness your financial means your sense of value in gratitude like what feels call shawana in contacts in an economic context that has programmed us always be looking out for the best deal always watching out to be to not be taken advantage of us in competition and distrust with each other is no easy formula to overcome those circumstances I totally agree and thank you for doing this work and also leading by example and living the the dream and being the change you want to see in the world that’s really inspiring and I guess I’ll just say that I’m probably more than I even have known but just the ambience of stirring of alternative options that you’ve been helping to be a part of fan in the last few years as it’s kind of thumb percolated through alternative communities in some but I guess some of the the alternative economic local systems have been in place for quite a while but they I guess it been since December group popularized or at least brought into more of the perception of a wider audience thinks that you’re working and I say now I’m operating on it or Showtime Banking and then even times where if a client is doing well financially then I will honor honor you no honor System expect to tell contribute to me financially if I’m more need financially but then if there’s do you know bottleneck on either side then we can just sort of dynamically reorient to to what’s available based on cycles of abundance that are you know sometimes unpredictable bit with enough of that going on you can kind of offset things and not have one-size-fits-all standardized by now or forever be left out you know fear of missing out marketing strategies and all these things that kind of like you said would limit access so I think it’s just a little bit of creativity and open heartedness can go a long way and I’ve seen wonders achieved and it’s really that pay it forward gift economy thing where you just don’t know how karmic banking or karmic capital is going to compound in a good way if you do things right so I’m love I’m a Believer and all that so yeah I went went there was a specifically one point where I I know I know that you brushed against the the sexual Arts as a form of them forever more sacred industry so now I’m transitioning into this the world’s oldest profession as its assets often called so we have this kiss in the country Community there is sort of a myth of the noble prostitute kind of think it’s interesting because a lot of us hold in our imagination that there was this the sort of golden age of the temple priests wear all those the men were coming and humility and it was to just bow down to their Muse and maybe they might get some action if they were really charming and made some offerings to the temple that were just sort of the best that they could provide based on their you know whether they’re Warrior or farmer or whatever it is that they was like a the public library is of sexual encounters and experience and it was actually something where if you were in a marriage and you were sort of from sub-standard and the quality of your performance than you will be you will be prompted by your your beloved to go and get some training with the Temple priestesses and so it sounds like the perfect world everybody wins and the people who were born to serve in that way they’re really facilitated and you know there’s more scholarship I say needs to be done to kind of confirm and really fill out of that that dream or that fantasy of the past that I believe there are found some documentation that I really supports that and then a lot of people now or through the Festival movement and and a lot of different sort of time sheikah institutes in schools and training centers and Retreats really anchoring in at least the vision of that which it sounds beautiful to me and I I really hope that it wasn’t just corrupt Kings and Warlords who were basically running big institutionalize brought those cuz they’re set as the patriarchy takes over you know it really took some of these more village-level shamanic service networks and then kind of built-in high-level Monumental architecture around it and it was a you know Caligula I think was the first one to actually officially state recognized prostitution with registration so they had their thirst names for effectively on the books you know with the treasurer’s and what not and it was Pompeii was a big think so I am aware of some of the historical narratives about the Temple of the Sacred priestesses the sacred prostitutes the goddess temples and so forth and for me the question actually isn’t necessarily is that factually correct or not but what future does it serve to hold those nervous because these histories can also be like kind of subconsciously drawing from a potential future that actually exists maybe outside of linear time but that that exists in some archetypal ROM and then then it’s like history maybe it was a world of art or something running a gigantic prostitution thing but but in that there was also a whisper of a sacred possibility that draws from a translinear archetype that can also be reached through linear time if we oriented toward that and allow it to be our compass point and take in its reality and then buy it. We can create this future that is projecting as members in the past in the future friends are going to be wants to construct The Narrative that serves what does society wants to become and you’re not so sure of course many people today who are also tapping into that archetype and doing this but also can come came to mind it text Omar current perspective we assumed we take for granted things that are actually just the artifact of our story in our system and one of those is the scarcity of sex so you had to take for granted that yeah the men and they’re going to love to go to the to the temples because then you’re going to get a matriarchal society where women were not own and not sexually sequestered into marriages but we are sexually free and in their societies sex might not work in a scarce commodity so the motivation of men wouldn’t be driven by this omnipresent insecurity in scarcity where my woman is just for me I won’t share her because less for me and another guy might come and take her away so I’m in competition with everybody else and how I’m now I get to go to the temple may not have been the circumstances that may have been much more of what you said like to pleasure to the Gateway. The woman can provide to these Transcendent or imminent Realms of unity Consciousness ecstatic Union through pleasure and and I need training in this you know and there’s these experts that can help me become a a d Define Erotic Impulse to experience Unity if you take that as a context whether it’s past or future that’s a whole different ball game and it’s no longer about you know about men exploiting women and and it’s kind of illicit you know I’m getting some on the side I got to pay for it because women have the goods scarcity and it’s called pussy and they’re going to give it to me if I give him enough money or after some other compensation like Economic Security or at least a phone call the next morning or whatever is not reality story yeah yeah yeah just as you speaking and all of these images are coming together and just imagining the the weary worn-down surf you don’t under the warrior and all of the different when you think about that that’s just the Metropolitan pantheistic cross cultural environment of the time of Caligula and just all of these people wear sexual hospitality is commodified like everything else because everybody is in his is part of the cow is just part of Commerce and there’s no organic real space everything when everything’s made it out in that in that way then it’s just inevitable just like I said I could turn style everything is is metered out so what from the end of thank you so much for bringing in that very empowering and liberating kind of grand scheme of things scope of not having to prove that it was the the truth of the past but it really is what were we were you going for in also think about how the modern pop stars the pinks and Lady Gaga’s they’re actually embodying the diva would literally more than they probably even know but they’re Wheeling magical power and they have the power to transform every one’s Consciousness really we’re all wrapped around the fingers of these these Superstars and it’s just what what color of magic perhaps are they teaching a steep to practice but what do you feel are some just in your survey of some of the Practical things on the ground I guess are you observing or witnessing Transformations any sectors thanks to some of your work or at least some of the trends that you’re you’re studying in your work well it’s hard to say what it is because of my work and what isn’t because stop by right is part of a Aveo upwelling Consciousness that would be happening whether or not I was writing about it so did I see something that did it just naturally occurring to people that wow what I’m doing doesn’t fit into the economic system and I’ve got to try something else so I do see people trying something else and very often not succeeding according to any any rational metric because this is New Territory for us in the dominant culture and we don’t really have a map we don’t have a recipe for how to do show people try all kinds of stuff you know trades or sliding scales where you choose the price or try to find you no sponsorship I got them to put a lot of explaining myself and and then when forming communities around this work where within the community money isn’t used a we support each other and take care of each other in all of the different ways that are available to us with our diversity of gifts in the community I’m really at what we’re watching said one way to look at it is get the most important practices to rebuild community but we don’t even necessarily know what that is but we all have a we all I’m being very generalized here but I often hear people articulate a yearning for Community to undo the narrow containers of the separate self and let in more people not just your lover not just your family you know not just your blood relatives but open it up a bit more to the circle of the gift operate on a on a gift economy you don’t usually charge your wife for doing the dishes or something like that in traditional settings and circle of gift was a lot bigger and therefore the circle of self was a lot bigger because if you are in a gift relationship with people and their well-being is your well-being and their suffering is your suffering even in Practical terms cuz they’ll have less to give they won’t be able to contribute to your well-being everybody is living a lifestyle we are contributing to each other’s well-being so to rebuild that is Canada meta-level of so much of the more surface layer work that word that we are attracted to do it and I think you know sexual healing and sexual expression is definitely part of that it doesn’t want to be reduced to something that you pay for it once I don’t want to trivialize the the necessity for establishing certain kinds of boundaries I don’t know I guess I’m have questions about that to like because love naturally blossoms when you’re really in it with somebody and is that what we want to put a boundary across so I know that that’s gets to be very complicated issue but ultimately it this this movement is about reuniting coming together again and dissolving not once but dissolving as appropriate and as called as called from us and through US dissolving the barriers of Separation beautiful will if you don’t mind if you don’t mind doing a little bit of faith journeying into a bit of the Shadow which would be the opposite of sacred economics and sort of them without dwelling too too deeply on it if if you don’t mind I don’t want to do the splits I feel like to to put even more context and shed more light it’s it’s good to look at some of the shadow of of the the adult industry and and the the effects of not having the village based sort of them or at least that the ethics of group values going on in circulating gift economy are you okay with it a little bit of that okay so something that that I feel as a selling point for lack of a better word is V the worst way to put it but a selling point for a talking point rather than maybe four people who were still very conservative around these these issues in these topics and they don’t believe that premarital or extramarital contact of any kind including I contact this is acceptable it’s actually a deadly sin when I in in conversation with people that level of conservatism I go right to some of the news headlines and say remember that guy Elliot Rodger I believe his name was and he was a young college student who had been who was a virgin and he decided to go on a kill crazy Rampage at the University California Santa Barbara campus I believe is what it was and and he just in a car he is premeditated he put out a YouTube video world like a hundred plus page Manifesto and it was this extremely if you will demonic possessed but very astute and very well-thought-out of course it’s all in the car pics of a narcissist with someone who had become a sociopathic narcissist but he had some insights to share with Humanity which cannot be overlooked and only by marginalizing him as a psychopath do we get to not take seriously what he was expressing which was this murderous sexual frustration that would have had in a more perfect world a world with goddess temples where initiation rites occurred for young people on this is something they’re doing and tomorrow which we can talk about as sort of a template for some solutions but it begs the question that if this young man had had sacred economic opportunities he was rich he was the son of a movie somebody in the film industry and in head just had a movie to come out and what is like there’s no reason for this kid driving around kid a young man he’s driving around this super fancy car and he had all the privilege in the world who is a fine-looking young man not to that should be a Criterion by any means to judge someone sexual access but he was still is I guess socially awkward he wasn’t able to connect enough to get himself quote lay don’t know if that was his word but that’s how you know his locker room but he’s probably would have thought about it but just you know it’s a long story short the the need it’s not just hippies that want to be polyamorous that can’t get disciplined enough to sit down at a day job that are trying to talk about building goddess temples you know it’s like the families of the slain in that Massacre should have been the ones bailing out Tracy Elise who ran the Phoenix goddess Temple donation-based Sexual Healing services in Arizona when she was brought down by operation goddess Temple a six-month undercover investigation where the undercover cops at come in there and cowboy boots and say hey I want to put my cock in your vagina and try to entrap them you know that’s what we’re doing to limit the healing potential of these goddesses and then on the other the shadow of a spectrum is all the Predators all the child sexual abusers all the rapists who would have been really massaged into Divinity by these sex workers who were busted for conspiracy if they give each other tips on food to avoid that level of breaking them legally disallowing women who are streetwalkers to even include in any way for their own safety it becomes double felony charges for you know having any communication with each other so that’s just what in rages me a time deep in the trenches of this movement in an industry and I just wondered what your thoughts are on you know the grotesque side effect of commodification and desecrated economic and if you have any leverage points or thoughts I’m just waking people up by putting some of these headlines in her face why are people shooting each other school shootings all the stuff is it a side-by-side effective are now the persecution of the Sacred it’s happens in every Realm end and I think that this idea that you’re playing with that frustrated Sexual Energy gets channeled into violence is I think it’s undeniable and not relating with women and holding their they’re holding it holding it holding a holding it’s like trying to hold a pressure cooker and an energy is building up in the Siemens building out and then it like it pops out somewhere and steam pops out somewhere else and if you hold it out if you hold it successfully enough in one explodes that’s see that’s what happens when you try to suppress infinite force anti-terrorism infinit force it comes out one way or another and and you mustn’t Tamara like they have a whole political philosophy there that basically says that war and violence comes through frustrated sexuality and they they they use the metaphor of rain and soil and end like that young energy of the rain if there’s not receptive soil soak it up and it becomes a flood it becomes destructive and so how do you create for tile receptive soil well as to be willing soil I have to have ecosystem and we don’t have that we have a Barren landscape that has been damaged repeatedly and it’s you know these men and women in our society it’s going to take I think a long time Generations after generations of healing Chipman do the trauma that is normal the acute trauma I mean something I don’t know what is a third of all children suffer abuse in. Just just go away so we have to understand that the men and women who are seeking Sexual Healing are coming from play some great trauma and we’re going to have I don’t know how to do it either I don’t know how it how to accommodate all that and especially in a system that is in a way rightly threatened by the prospect of sexual Liberation and sexual healing and I say why they threatened in the sense that it would mean the end of society as we know it would mean the end of status quote with the status quo with mean the end of the war machine they mean the end of the crashing of one class by another Nation Under the most fundamental template for dehumanization that is thousands of years older than racism is is misogyny is patriarchy is the immunization of women that’s the template and then gets applied in the form of racism that gets applied in the form of xenophobia are all kinds of bigotry but that’s where it began yeah just yeah well well I’ve got chills thank you so much I’m really this is exactly the the depths of promotion I wanted to achieve with this conversation and and I’m glad that you brought it into Focus around the turn patriarchy and I’m not at all hesitant to use that word because I studied anthropology and archaeology of it and I kind of feel like in that pure anarcho-primitivism two ends not not that everyone not to project onto you or anyone else but it’s that understanding that there was a a sleight of hand and a muscular maneuver to crush the feminine when it came to Agriculture and that in most cases it was a male-dominated shift that happened so it’s easy to know some people want to kind of say hey let’s not you know make binaries and let’s not do you know indict the masculine Maslow needs healing too and I feel that I agree with that and some people would say it’s a partnership vs. Dominator. I will need to look at and that is true as well but I also think that you need to the men have some tears to shed to to kitchen and to pay some some debts I believe to the to the earth into the feminine so what better way than to put down the swords in the axes and start to pick up shovels and start planting the Garden of Eden if only the Bible had that is the last line and let’s replant the Garden of Eden cuz it wants us to return I don’t think there’s a reason to be ashamed of ourselves as men men suffer as much maybe in patriarchy as women do it doesn’t it’s not good for the men either unless you think that that constant insecurity and competition and cut off from motion and and distance from the feminine Wellspring of life in divinity’s a good thing it’s it’s Petrakis terrible from them even get less sex in picture I could weigh less and patriarchy as a system in as an internalized system is because I want to live a good life I want to be happy want to be free I don’t want to be always insecure that I’m going to become a loser when my status object falls in love with somebody else all right are you what what level of adventurist awareness do you have of the bonobo or bondable studies that have kind of been you know I’m never had sex at dawn and stuff okay. Yeah that’s that’s give us a glimpse into its one lens on on human nature and then you can look at egalitarian primates for another glimpse of human nature and and look at the animal world I think there are many many possibilities but you feeling too much to genetics and nature as some justifications or as prescriptions for what Society should look like because how are genes and expression of our genes can change according to the social atmosphere so we’re not even even though I don’t like the conclusions that are drawn from a no-go studies I’m a little weary of putting too much on to that and advocating our sovereignty as be choosers of the kind of society we want to live in the kind of world you want to live in Ray has probably more helpful to see it just like the other ethnographies insects it down just as a counter reference point to as possible or what what are some things about him missing out on 7th at one of the things that I feel is most destructive about studies the bonobo is so we have this fear of matriarchy this phobia that it would look like a mirror image of just the tyrants the Amazons are some some kind of distorted fantasy of authoritarian matriarchy but what what is demonstrated so beautifully in their societies pretty much universally is his lack of rape lack of violence violence or conflict being preempted by sexual activity in that there’s this it seems like they’re almost like the the female Sisterhood bonds are so well-formed that they end up sort of making little bonsai trees out of the male egos so that their best Captain service and if they going to stay out of this probably oversimplifying but it’s it’s a if the power dynamics are are such that it behooves a man to want to mail to go out and do something of service be entertaining go get some bananas bring them back and make an offering without sex spectations maybe you’ll get lucky and it all goes to sort of say that it if we did with permaculture create such an abundant ecology to live within then that that scarcity wood would dissolve in and went to the mountains and then we could just share freely and there would be a bit of healthy competition but it would bring out the best in people and they would cooperate to get group favors that guess you could say well yeah definitely make sure he is not patriarchy with women instead of men in the power positions it looks very different and I don’t really even think we know what it would look like what condition to the structure not the content of patriarchy which has many options of power but the structure on the patriarchy dominating no you have a religion that we we don’t have the conceptual vocabulary or the exponential vocabulary to even know what make sure he would look like and we can draw maybe though from indigenous cultures that still have matriarchal elements to them or some of my you can be fully mature rare one of my friends is speaks really only about this she’s a woman and she kind of paints a picture of like the men yeah they’re really valued for male qualities that are you know in some within 2 to a greater or lesser extent but that are these male qualities of of linearity rationality okay let’s get this thing done you know that’s what’s let’s focus on the task and the goal that kind of stuff like in a Mich Ronco cultural traits are valued but it’s understood that men need help to know what to apply those things to you that the men rely on so that they know where to exercise their masculine mini your creative abilities and when that gets disconnected from the feminine Source all kinds of hack and shoes and those qualities get you no turns toward you know hedge fund and and things that are disconnected with a starting life so make sure I might be something where where the what is that where did where there are structures to constantly aground the human capacities of of manipulation of of amazing design onto the world check the ground those in the service all life yeah I’m kind of looking forward to it but something like that you know what it would look like it’s so foreign to what Society is right now but for me to definitely would include no fear of of Economic Security is there taking care of my community we don’t have we live in a world today of artificial scarcity there’s already even without Global permaculture system there’s already more food is wasted every day then would take to feed all the world to see artificial scarcity of of everything that we have artificial scarcity of beauty New York City and I got to be almost all the buildings are ugly but what after five thousand years can we do better than that artificial scarcity of of play artificial scarcity of intimacy of love sex. The parts you know why are so many people so hungry for for intimacy but you’re sorry I made a list once upon a time I have to add one thing which is the who choose horrible conspiracy idea was it to let to make one seater bathtubs I mean isn’t that the Cry of separation LOL I have the potential to live in such a beautiful world and it’s just really a shift in perception away absolutely well we’re about an hour here so I just want to say that again this really melted my heart and and stimulated my mind and this is really validating I said I could say system it’s a gift that you’ve been on the show and you’ve been able to let me have air out some Rants and get a little bit of a sounding board and feedback in and just validation and I believe this will be hopefully something that can steer or stear folks towards your work and towards this greater what you’re pointing towards your your kind of you know in a way a messenger of really guiding people into a lifestyle of of deconstructing these false paradigms that we’re stuck in and it really are very elegantly and beautifully transcended with a little bit of creativity in a little bit just the awareness that these other possibilities are really really everywhere we can be drawn from the past or the future so you know what that said I just want to last thing I want to say is that something Tracy at least in part it on me before she was tried and then went to prison is that to you know this bit of wisdom that when the women are happy the men will get more sex and so if we can figure that out and then listening I think it’ll it’ll all just quickly and easily slip into a more beautiful economic reality around that that notion so that’s my final thought and if you want to share any final thoughts and certainly how people can access all of your great works and upcoming events and all that good stuff I’m just jealous of feeling grateful for the conversation and or the work that you’re doing that is really important and not very celebrated so thank you for doing that and as for my working self hello thank you to my website. So is it is just Charles eisenstein. Calm cool and then and then please definitely anyone listening SoundCloud is the great repository for your work so you can just digest all the great works and beautiful voices and also audible is with us on your videos short films call when you have any plans or anything exciting coming up people should be staying tuned for pretty much nothing comes up you know I don’t really have much schedule for 2018 until maybe the book comes out in September and then I’ll be here probably speaking more are you able to to give us any of the adjust of what two subjects are working on Earth just hard to talk about it because if I say what it’s about you think I know it but it’s what I’m saying and it’s so different from what what is being said that it’s on climate change a very good title loans I’m not sure I want to see the title yet but it’s it’s basically it’s a very very different narrative cool well I can’t wait yeah I’m sure it’s going to be awesome cool well then I guess we will just call it a show for now and hopefully yes anytime we can resume and then also just to kind of kick it off for a maybe a follow-up eventually is it a we definitely got deep into the into this topic this time around but the cryptocurrency and distributed Ledger technology blockchain technology and how that is really pushing out some of the prophetic that you shared about peer-to-peer open source technology development as an expression of gift economies sacred economics and all that would be cool to Circle back to that at some point in the future and then also you have so wouldn’t know I’ll be keeping an eye out for your book and maybe we can get you on around that time when you’re doing the marketing for that okay sounds good cool alright Charles thank you again so much have a great rest of your day I take care and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is the seeming and improving the podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been a tantra Punk. 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