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Permaculture Eco-Warriors Establish The Moshram Part 2 TPP281

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In this episode I’m joined by MC Mycopath for a two part series on the past, present, and future of his personal permaculture journey and the establishment of The Moshram

My Non Verbatim Show Notes

MM:

10 years doing landscape consultations, small scale urban repurposing of people’s front and back yards, more hip with local, everything that’s taking place, microbio in soil, plants that co-mingle,

also consulting folks with health

certifications achieved through multiple biochemists

learned that the more fresh foods that we consume, the healthier our cells are

the body that takes us around here

with that, understanding and passion for that, I really wanted to be able to provide highest quality product of food for myself and others, coupled with education

spin farming, brother and I spin farming, didn’t necessarily bring in permaculture

added permaculture principle layer to spin farming

densely growing high value crops in small area

regenerate the living systems

help maintain my living system, at a cellular level, also at a financial and social level

been about 5 years, that I’ve been on this site, had multiple sites over the years

site, least likelihood of it being taken from underneath my feet, all apart of journey

seeing successes and failures in past projects

led me to finding this space

it was through a friend, that was aware that I was looking to scale up

spin farming in brothers back yard, with brother

then when on to slightly expanding at space I was at

really like to bring it all to one location and just do this

generally around vegetable crops

annuals predominantly

put in a layer of perennial crops

also longer term species, fruit trees

learned fascinating things about fruit

fruit tree requires least amount of water over long time period

gives back a lot to soil

soil is really just millions or billions of living organisms

eating pooping, dying, whole things perpetuating

through roots and leaves, branches, fruits, they drop all feeding system

year in year out

bring together this whole concept

put it at a term, silvopasture

rows of fruit trees, or some type of tree

aid in creating shade

aid in slowing down wind

not requiring a lot of water, relative to other annual crops

in between rows, would grow annual crops

maybe these annual crops are things just to regenerate soil

rotational crop, in between lettuce, grow vetch, cow pea, to reinvigorate the soil from what was depleted from what was the previous crop you cultivated

what we set out to do here

very densely packed rows of vegetable crops to sell at market and too individuals through CSA type program

longer term species of varying fruit trees

simply move forward upon goals of project, something that’s always an unknown, fortunately and unfortunately, that collaborative team of 3 individuals broke down

mediator, wasn’t sustainable, they didn’t vibe well, both wanting to walk away which they did

I was not very interested in walking away from another project, having it swept out from under me, again ,because these two egos weren’t collaborating

move post differences

differences got in the way

I wasn’t feeling, stepping away from all of the work we had done from contouring the land, to bringing in so much organic matter, infusing bacterium, all sorts of soil microbiology

perennial fruit trees, you have to wait some time, 3-5 years minimum to reap harvest

I didn’t have it in me to just be like you guys aren’t into, either am I, I am into it

don’t just want to do it here, want to perpetuate this stamp, different biomes

so cal region, mediteranean biome, only about 7 med, climates on the planet, tend to be the most lucrative for humans to co-exist with surroundings, temperatures, food crops, wild and domesticated

love to see what it’s like in other bioregions as well, other climatic elements

we’ve got going on what we have here

you came forward saying how interested you were in helping perpetuate this project, it was like the clouds parted

working on this site, we’re on 10s of acres, just working out a little over an acre, just maintenance alone for one person is daunting to say the least

just because we put together a holistic system doesn’t mean there’s no more work

actually perpetual, no end to amount of work, just in pruning things, cultivating

easy to plant seed, easy to harvest, cultivation in between, I don’t know if it’s gonna survive or not, I’ll do everything I can

lot of energy mental, physical, spiritual

one dude, isn’t gonna hold the world on his back man, either are two

TP: makes me think I’m gonna use another term for defining permaculture and call it ecological parenthood

caring for something to maturity

young families go through it, terrible twos, fighting, health similar thing

tree system here, adolescent,

MM: not as easy as dealing with child, can’t teach a tree how to fight off a squirrel, they’re bullies

TP: the timeliness of this, synchronicities will be unveiled later

rick straussman, first actual government sanctioned psychedelic research studies since the 70s, gap of 20 years

spirit molecule, interviewed,

recently, basically saying, people would ask did he take DMT,

he would give a vague answer or plausible deniability

eventually recently came out, admitted, yeah, I was doing it

I’m like fuck yeah, I wanted to hear that for so many years, scientist had the balls to do what he was talking about

ties back together, something he said, meta level life philosophy

you know, back then I had my whole career ahead of me still, a lot to lose, judged, critique, older, less of my life left, that’s much less life to lose

we’re at a point where I don’t want to piss off the wrong people, I don’t want to be a target, wait til we have resilience before we have grand opening at this site

eventually will ripened, eventually forced by demand, people will need it

sweet spot in time, security measures, support we need, capital, be in place for the time we want to open the gates

get to that point when, we did the thing, not much left to lose, tell the story, give real names, not give a fuck

certain things now, I feel like, at least statute of limitations has run out on some things, one metric

that feeling, we’ll get to a point where we don’t have that much to lose

my side of story of having fallen in love with this site, toured project in the past, wishing I could be more connected, occasion to visit

definitely feel like it was one of the most epic works in progress of so cal permaculture

ability to do it right

social permaculture dynamics of human sector, zones of humans, sector of humans, human elements, could have most beautiful property, dynamics surrounding neighbors be your worst enemy, false starts,

time energy, blood, blisters, heart ache, amount of effort that goes into permaculture project, somebody that’s they’re mission, to have that be continually ripped out in front of you

people don’t even see it

persecution of religious sects, we are the lost tribe of permies, that are constantly being haranged by neighbors

adapted us also to travel light in our personal empires

positive side effect of lifestyle of ecological romance

nudge nature to create symphonies of seed and soil

less hindered

student of Tyler Durgen, waking up after car crash with Edward Norton, the world I see, laying out strips of vennisen

hunter gathers, thriving on the carcass of industrial collapse

utopian anarchoprimitivists, intellectual elite, from eugene, green anarchist, wanna be poser,

not everybody was a poser, the heads that were the elitist, very hyper intellectual, authors and writers, wind bags, had all this talk

in eugene the founder of food not lawns, we’d go there talk bs about living primitive, blessing her with presence of our lofty conversations, decades later we don’t have our food forest, we don’t have fruit trees maturing, resentment, burnt bridges

super extra appreciate hard work that’s been done

this site, work you’ve done, huge grace, a pass, I could and should very well be punished for how far I’ve strayed from the path of planting trees, defending them, standing by them, storms, storming off of partners and lovers, mission and duty to make a stand

there’s a lot of times I’ve said this is not the hill I’m gonna die on, and this is the first time I can actually say this is a high that I would die on, for a lot of reasons, biggest gift to me, is to know

who is tantra punk, wacko jerk off wanna be tyler durgen alter ego, that split off from psychedelic ceremonies that got botched, and now this floating soul part of my old wounded self, has created this internet porn star wanna be freak, don’t have much ecological, I have bastard children trees, all over the place, to be able to be like

while you were out there, doing this thing, that could have got you in trouble, some what of an adventure, fool hardy, never would have expected that I could just cheat that time that I walked away from the permaculture path, did this freaky stuff

hey ben, dinners ready, fruit falling from trees, I just get to get back into the zone, almost 10 years since I was in deep coastal mountain broad acre permaculture, doing the trees, doing the systems right, the scale, the soil

waltz into this at a point you’d be beleagured, bromance novel cover if there ever was one

thanks to the designer of designers, tip had lift glass to him

be great to go into the shark tank part of this, now the reinforcements in the form of me and my humble but growing financial capital I can put in to keep things afloat, elbow grease, sweat equity

optimizing dance of mutuality, with responsibilities, rights, tasks, finances, between the two of us

alchemy we’re doing, the renaissance of this project, bring into 2.0 era

trajectory of , drawing from the permies community, paul wheaton, survival podcast, larry santoyo, different instructors we’ve had

business model for the site, the rebel farmers like sepp holzer, austria, kramaterohoff, epic contour narrow ponds support subtropical microclimates, high elevation fruit trees

so abundant, epic, done epic shit, considered to be the ultimate rock star, don’t think any other place on earth, other mature permculture projects, the profitability and scale and grandeur, I don’t know what I would compare to the kramaterhoff on earth

wonders of the world of permaculture tour, walk through it sometime

business model, everything else in agriculture sector, globalized race to the bottom, poison, toxic

convince people to want to buy american, niche for premium products, usually sick people who can afford to take your advice

don’t want to give crutch of supplying, want to teach them to do it themselves, leverage their acreage, their community

the idea of farming to enable other people to not be horticulturalists, shift from that as soon as possible

paradigm, living the dream, market gardeners, the biproduct of creating plenty of best varieties of food we’d like to eat, we’ll have excess, and with that excess we can play god to an extent in the economy because of how much of ecological ninjas we are

rather than try to package it all in plastic, get it in all the stores, scale it to the world

we make a more dense local economy out of it, healing center, learning center, teaching them how to fish, not selling them a fish per se

in my crude nut shell of a pitch, that’s the trajectory we’ve been most in agreement about

if somebody had infinite budget to invest, why should they buy into this as working co-op member, or non-working co-op member, how can people benefit from helping us

MM: few dudely dudes, I’ve met could really have no care to well being of nature around them, small minority of people I’ve spoken with of time on this path, over 20 years

experience with biodiesel co-op, very localized project, I would do education to engineering firms, groups

education at earth day festivals, people contribue, become non-working members of biodiesel co-op because they like what’s going on, think it’s a good direction

if anybody has capital, monetary, social, spiritual, any of the 8 forms of capital, that they are willing to share to perpetuate, the direction of this project

this may sound overzealous, I couldn’t think of a better project, or more dedicated individuals to invest that capital in

it’s one of those put your money where your mouth is

my clients in landscaping and in the health regeneration, many of them, actually buy into what I have to share, because of how I’m living my life

I’m not just using words, I’m hands in the soil, I’m doing everything I can at every corner

from what I know of you, been a crucial part of so many projects, that at one point or another it wasn’t your jive anymore for whatever reason

here we are find ourselves together on a mountain we’re will to die on

and it takes a community always

for anyone that would like to be a part of this community and see it perpetuate

be able to visit the site

local,

to benefit from the harvests of all of this, where else are you gonna put your money, time, energy, love

I’m not sure

it’s like you said man, this is one of the rare sites of southern california, any and all help, helps perpetuate a holistic project, working towards the great good of the local and world community when it comes down to it

held a lot of retreats, get people from all over the world, host in tropics, pretty good centralized area, highly abundance

ripe things to eat, throughout the year

amount of people that congregate, so diverse, so incredible, have a lot to share

at this point we have a site that any and all people interested have the ability to share

before it’s all been other people’s sites, very temporary, the time that gets spent there

long term expanded version of those experiences, and “retreats”

where else are you gonna put your resources, if you want to see great things happen, cause that’s all we’re really into

passionate

tend to only roll with those who are equally passionate about making this place a better place to be

agenda 21,

different concept of human settlement zones, from what we’re working towards here

TP: yes

to say the most and the least, that says it all, what could I add to that

nuts and bolts of this business modeling, goes back to legacy of my parents at some point will read the manifesto my father wrote for member based, for-profit nonprofit, fruit based operation, deep in heart of washington state apple orchard lands, building a massively, dense, intensive educational commercial project, rusticness, design constraint, make all tools, tools to make tools, melting down old cars, human powered, they were one of the first and most highly respected, wasn’t hippie commune, very studious, technical, published technical manual, subscribers to periodical, whether they purchased wares or we students, subscribe to catalog, kind of like micro version of mother earth news

department of making you said, interviewed mom, years ago, maybe now the time, one of those things you never know when it’s appropriate, get people on podcast, get perspectives, state of world, might be our last conversation, could go for anybody, did great interview with mom about 10 years ago, transapocalyptic, utopian for her, fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree

hard dharma, karmic seeds of melt down of family, trauma, wasted years, trouble, lot of years to get on the course that fell apart

a lot of people, children of the hippies

there’s something magical about the fact that here we are kind of at the age our parents were, as a generation, hippie, back to the land 2.0, we had woodstock,the rainbow gathering spawned from that, what are children of hippie’s doing now, actually fulfilling some of those dreams

we have now psychedelic shamanism, and not just acid, the electric kool aid test, these people went back to the land, no shamanic oversight, no elders,

even Geoff Lawton jokes, sad joke, comic tragedy, I wonder how many communes failed because they didn’t understand proper solar orientation, they bought land on north facing slopes, gave themselves an uphill battle on steep slopes facing the shadow of the sun, don’t even know why they melted down

permaculture,

we can learn from a lot of those mistakes, well positioned to demonstrate, and proudly display the next generation of the back to the land movement again at a time my mother talked about in the podcast

people went back to the land at the peak of the OPEC oil crisis in early 1970s

it wasn’t 1969 and summer of love, melt down of haight ashbury into tweaker rape culture madness,

they didn’t go directly from peak of 60s to back to the land, survivalist, apocalyptic thing, cities going to evaporate and collapse, economy gonna collapse, have to head to hills and start building a future

but brought in patriarchy, monoculture, only little bits of eastern mysticism

wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for that

now, okay, this is for me the most pure and karmically cleansed and most righteous set of circumstances to do your thing

are you really these eco artisans the whole world should pay attention to, or destined to fail

may not be the last place I ever work on

do world tour of biomes

if you take permaculture design course you want to be like a army ranger, navy seal, eco macguevery, swiss army knife, want to be deployed in every climate

because you know how to do things like harvest snow melt for nursery underground

be a bad ass shit, being a bad ass eco warrior with all this knowledge

do what special forces and green berets, what if all the engineering and money and investing and capital, everything that went into napalm and agent orange, if instead of destroying ecology, all that cultural engineering of warfare, went into actually creating a more resilient opposition through permaculture

tactical permaculture, make it impossible for them to put land mines in territory you want to defend, created thorny trellising, motes, father in military

being a bad ass, be tactical, have a reason to train, not mma, good for them but

wanna have something I love that’s worthy of defending that would keep me in shape just by working it, origins of kung fu and farming

bit of a tirade from me

MM:

I really like how you brought up that the fruit does not fall far from the tree, parents

definitely feel, that’s a thing that goes on in nature, we’re a part of it

we’re carbon copies of these people we call our parents

we emulate them in so many ways, because of the signature for which they gave us, dna

as father was one of most brilliant men I’ve ever met in my life

I would come forward to father with things I’ve learned, he would share how could he thought it was, what it made him think about

prior too, a little apprehensive, most brilliant man, hey check this out, not knowing what kind of feedback, always positive re-enforcement

honoring that we can do as individuals in relationship to our ancestors, that can be very important for mental scape, how we conductor ourselves in our lives

bro, sounds like a spitting image of your dna tree

I would imagine your mother and father had some similar thing for them

fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree

TP: I should shout out thank you to your father, have to name the library after him

lots of bro time to catch up on, and create that space where we can, aya ceremonies, 2 or 3 generations in one ceremony of family members, pretty epic

we’re healing ourselves, healing each other, healing the masculine, and creating a safe and welcoming space for the feminine to be free to be fully expressed

said before no offense, I kinda feel like, well it goes back to waynes world, fully functional babe layer, you can design for the woman in you, and the woman you want on you, save 9th form of capital for another episode

not a monastery, not womanizers either, between monastery and rapey womanizer cult, we’re probably somewhere in the middle

we need our other ethical brothers to step up, we have some healing to do in our tribe of permaculture, takes a lot of those talks about our fathers and what they did and didn’t teach us

so, that conversation is an open forum, its fun to shoot guns and practice your kicks and punches, equally important to break down and let yourself be, pummelled and tenderized by letting go of trauma, letting brother hood energy find those deep wounds and fractures, more energy buried we could be apply to our tree parenthood, soil parenthood, aquaculture parenthood, seed parenthood

MM:

along those lines of the multigenerations of lineage through psychedelic experience, its always bewildered me, with my psychedelic experiences with mushrooms, everytime I sense my grandfather,at first really weird thing, now a presence I’m aware of, hear and feel mutterings, only knew for short period of my life

at this point it’s very interesting, grandfather said, you’re back, maybe I’m back, it’s nice to be with you

thanks for helping to perpetuate my father,

what can I do for us

great thing

TP: it’s like working for a company, at office chair, every once in a while the owner comes in, the day the owner comes in, checking it out, what’s your name, trippy, ancestor worship is a thing

use it or lose it

I feel in this life, pretty damn abandoned by ancestors, been torn asunder to depths of hell such that ancestors have been blocked off by dark armies of hell, demons, but we’re gonna compost the shit out of them, find that the spirit guides were always there, they were just blocked, we didn’t make it easy for them to get back to us

of all the times I’ve felt I don’t know if I belong here, don’t know what I should be doing here, try to destroy ego, never lasts, very few times and place where I feel there is pure righteousness

liberate this land from all the plastic, multigenerational journey

dance with past and future, toxic gick, pure nature, spirits definitely guiding us

applauding efforts, works cut out for you, each one teach one, clean it up, scale it out

microcosm of what has to be done for the whole planet, on every planet

MM: not controlled by forces that think they’re higher

TP: decentralized, mycopathic, path of mycology

talk about martial arts, personal development, brother hood, men’s group experience that we’re working on and developing synthesis of spiritual, self defense, fitness through working the land, grace of being connected to your yin, notion of not just another wet noodle retreat center, traipsing around in loosest clothing, look at me I look like I just jumped out of a Rambo set, and yet I’m spiritual, dancing, smelling flowers, appreciating all the rainbows, but I can also do some ninja rolls, lift some heavy shit, drag some shit around, and do what’s gotta be done, ideal of a shaolin temple, double dragon fruit

playing up this idea, thinking about, if I was a kid, in the peak of my GI Joe fan boyness I would love to be shooting airsoft guns, tactical training with seed shot pellets, was nature boy, played in nature

how much fun families can be having, applying energy going into videos or going into being a boxer, mma fighter

masculine energy, protection, defense, epic garden project, for masculine energy to balance itself and exhaust itself, place for healthy catharsis, healthy relationships, families, we can both speak to

will be legacy to leave behind, a martial, permaculture, ecological, new martial culture as well, no surprise, or coincidence that we both, been blessed by profound journey’s into what other brutish me respect, not just purple breathers, also to some degree bad asses

love to hear you talk about, the spirit of the dragon fruit that animates you and your kung fu gardening techniques

MM:

made reference to that hippie thing, an elder at one of the rainbow gatherings I was sitting with , great acronym, term hippie, happy intelligent person, pursuing infinite excellence

never my thinking when it came to hippies, people that smelled bad, sat around got high and kept sitting around

just talking isn’t accomplishing,

pursuing infinite excellence, taking it to another level, punk rock perspective

you are a hippie, you smell like scum, I’m your worst enemy, a middle class street punk

and I always resonated with that, really nice to get that different perspective of what hippie could be

greater mobility in body, sought out chi gong master, chinese yoga for lack of better terms

not just stretching

entire philosophy, after about a year of training, sifu said, training is great, very yin, balance out with kung fu, more yang,

open to this, cool

always wanted, wanted to have military training for various reasons it wasn’t something that happened, along same line of hippie

kung fu, nearly synonymous, life mastery

mastering whatever life is for me, to me

level of giving back that comes from all of that

began training kung fu

4-5 days a week sometimes 2 sessions a day, my body started to really get in tune with motions, weapons training, when we think back to the shaolin, where kung fu started

these were farmers, weapons were their farm tools, really started to come through as my body got accustomed to movements, started using these implements in the farm, body now knew how to use them in a more appropriate way

ergonomics

rake or hoe, swing it out with arms, shoulders, and back, or put it out there and move hips back and forth, all power in your hips

spirals up through feet, hips, outward

utilizing that technique with farm tools

new relationship with tools and how to work with land and my body, all in same go

weeding, clearing debris, chopping things down, practicing kung fu

martial arts/life mastery

mastering far more of my body, tools, and tools that work with land

symbiosis, something that we can all benefit to apply in our lives, in any way shape or form

not everybody’s gonna go be a farmer

maybe you’re pushing a vacuum

you can cause strain or you can no cause strain to body, which then causes strain or not on the body, perpetuates through spirit

something that I’m still evolving into I feel like but its very empowering

self reliance

being able to provide for yourself, doesn’t just mean growing food, having land, also means self defense

never know where you’re gonna find yourself

bring those things into all of those life practices, another science that fills one of those holes in that permaculture raft we get pushed out into the water

brings it all back around, self feeding, self perpetuating

mentally physically and spiritually

TP:

brings us full circle

pleasant meanderings, through path of this convo, summary of most of our various contexts, working or grubbin on fruit, whatever it is, comings and goings, as we’ve been carving out this niche for ourselves

always reminds me of the movie that got me first enchanted with martial arts, van damme, blood sport

here we are, tactical permaculture moment going back to deepest roots of romance with nature and martial arts

ninjitsu master, frank dux, he was talking to parents, european parents of young frank dux, depicted to be wine farmers, vineyard, meeting of parents

train with japanese ninjitsu master

frank told me you grow vines, boys like vines need training, martial science brings mind, body, spirit together

we’re fulfilling that prophesy

we’re dudes,

point about military, I mentioned this not too long ago, in jest, valid point

hey america, if you would have given me a real war, or real cause to fight for, I would have served on the front lines, it’s been nothing but bullshit, you don’t get to have this body/mind

don’t give traumatic brain injury, lead poisoning, blow my limbs off, make me unable to sustain a relationship, cut my VA benefits for using cannabis

you don’t get any of that shit, not in this lifetime, maybe that could change, who knows what battles will need to be fought

the joke I made, we’re not we’re not less of bad asses that we didn’t get military training, we’re actually more, if we can be, without having the training of those instructors, and we can train our damn selves, read same manuals, same marksmanship, survival training, mindset of discipline, selection

break you down

I was my own drill segerant, life circumstances carved my ass from cookie dough to wood

health, wellness, survival, comes from putting skin in the game

better to have warrior in garden than gardener in war,

debilitating malformed meme of utopian pacifism

idea that we all need to be genderless, a mush of micro trauma egg shell walking, I’m a man, I embrace that, I don’t need impose, I embrace and love and support cherish diversity, space for everyone

phrase, vin armani brought to attention:

seed conversations of what I’d like to call and have been implementing

permaculture training experience for tactically minded, some of the best training, with hardcore lesbian women, guns and ammo, blades, bows and arrows plaster their walls instead of boy band posters, those are my best friends

ongoing thing that, I want to be the guy that the butch warrior lesbians like to play with on a full moon when they feel like, interesting romance, another story

have to cover my ass and say it’s not hyper masculine, toxic masculine militia

who wants to be securing the perimeter, that’s what we need first, can’t have whole tribe or family unless we can defend them

call to action, strong willed, strong minded, disciplined, people who want to be bangin sticks as they say in pekiti tirsia kali training, continual life long conditioning and training, being a warrior , really mean something for good cause

quote: michael hopf, those who remain,

hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times,

put that in your pipe and smoke it

enough from me

over and out, roger

thank you again

MM: honor brother, insightful, exciting having this conversation, whoever you are out there listening, hope you were able to glean something from it

summary, I feel like, initially I’d stated how going back to permaculture, can be applied to anything that you do, require taking a permaculture design course with instructor you’d like to learn from, and personality types are thing

I have studied a lot of things in my short time here, does always come back to the principles of permaculture

when I educate others on health, they don’t know it but they’re getting a quick permaculture design course for the body

utilizing all these principles around the landscape we call our bodies

a bunch of cells living together

body, gardening cells, out there gardening soil conditions to provide foods for our cells to utilize

its one of the most valuable trainings that I’ve ever had in my life,

people that also take these course, share similar sentiment

that’s about it

end this with as mc mycopath

end a lot of health lectures with a rap, haven’t done this one in a while, see how it goes

TP: gotta get that out in the drum circle, put some beats on that, hippie drum beats on that

more to come

this conversation is to be continued, next, while we’re still tying up lose ends, give audio tour of integrated systems and logic of design of systems, address

situational report, what we’ve got going what we need help with, if people have time or resources or expertise, what’s been established what’s being established, hearing a bit about what we’re processing, actual road map of what we’re doing, laid out the backstory

of what could be an epic opportunity for ourselves

all sliding scales of wealth, we’re providing

free offerings online, all kinds of content, you’ll be whippin up a podcast, holding the camera for each other to do a lot of the teaching we want to

following up with some a/v content

be comin at cha again soon

big love to you and to all the forces seen and unseen that made it possible to be at this point