In this episode I am joined by the distinguished esoteric scholar Tony Mierzwicki for a discussion about exorcism in the ancient world. Our exploration leads to a brainstorming session on the potential to modernize and standardize demonology with clinical laboratory experimentation.
To learn more about Tony and his great works please visit: www.hermeticmagick.net
Tony has been practicing ceremonial magick since 1990. He has been running regular workshops and rituals recreating ancient magickal practices in the United States and on the east coast of Australia since 2001.
Tony Mierzwicki is the author of “Graeco-Egyptian Magick: Everyday Empowerment” and a forthcoming primer reconstructing Classical Greek religion, “Hellenismos: Practicing Greek Polytheism Today”. He has contributed to various anthologies and magazines. He gives regular guest appearances and lectures at various pagan, witchcraft and new age events, as has been on television and radio shows.
Tony has completed three degrees at the University of Sydney – Master of Arts, Bachelor of Engineering and Bachelor of Science. He served a three-year term on the Board of Directors for Cherry Hill Seminary from August 29, 2008 to September 30, 2011, of which roughly half was in the capacity of Secretary. Tony is originally from Sydney, Australia and currently lives with his with his black Labrador, Anubis. in Huntington Beach California.
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Com and our journey together will begin hello dear beloved’s welcome to Township hunting podcast I am interviewing Tony Maria’s Wiki about exorcism in the ancient world I got an email from the goddess Temple of Orange County that there was going to be a lecture there by that title of fortunately I couldn’t make it but I had to reach out to Tony and see if he would come on the podcast and tell us all about exorcism of the ancient world and if you could just start Tony with a bit of background on yourself and then help us understand this interesting subject matter if you would hi Benjamin thanks for inviting me on to the show as for my background I started practicing ceremonial magick probably around nineteen ninety I’m always I still trade practitioner of focused on the Golden Dawn tradition chaos magick and Selena as I progressed I found myself being drawn Progressive emotes what I should modalities so I want up resonating with Graco Ultra magic which is the system of magic practiced in Egypt in late Antiquity so we’re looking at a time. Of roughly the second century BCE to the 5th Century CE a magic isn’t a fuel system of magic is sexy eye blending of the number of magical stream so we have Sumerian and Babylonian Magic read metric Egyptian magic Jewish magic and a very light sprinkling of Christianity of you know I’m in 2006 gray color shoe magic it’s available on Amazon Prime me Interest has been in a magical practices and religions of the area around the Mediterranean section II focused primarily on Egypt Greece and to a lesser extent of the show I am comfortable work in Greco Egyptian magic because the spells that we use written in quite a grape which is the language of the New Testament so we can mail the pronunciation for the problem which I’m more ancient languages is the we done if she know how to pronounce them correctly if you look at it nothing like the ancient Egyptian language because the valves what recorded consulates egyptologist by count out was the pronouncing of Fixer-Upper we really have is I guess that’s the same thing with on Sumerian language over dealing with our guest has been my primary focus I also have another book which is supposed to come out it’s been delayed for various reasons why it’s called Helen is moss and that’s going to be a reconstruction of religious practices in Greece during the classical. Primarily so we’re looking at the 4th and 5th centuries BCE I suppose you want me to talk about exorcism on myself watching movies like The Exorcist and other movies that that featured possession by a demonic entities and and I couldn’t help noticing that all of them have a very Christian Feel to them talk to the priest coming along and calling on Jesus and the Holy Trinity cost of demon Alex and I kept thinking we’ll obviously that’s not the way it was done in the ancient world so I’m I started to investigate how eggs and there are similarities for the Christian stupid well I’m so I’m going to go over already sent differences the thing is that with what we doing with our Diamond which is the Greek word for Spirits it has not connotation of good or evil which is necessary evil spirits to the Ancients could be mutual that could be bad thing is that could be possessed by evil entities which would have for negative effect on them possessed by a more positive NC one of the best-known examples of fat is beyond it was the young the prophetess at the Oracle of Delphi who would be possessed by the spirit of Apollo and she would go into a trance and she would octopus versus benevolent Spirits or a benevolent God and distinguish between various types of possession so he referred to celestic possession which was inspired by the Gods on this it was poetic session is inspired by the muses and erotic possession inspired by Aphrodite and Eros and then after that I went on to say that there were people who would be possessed by nymphs typically diabetic she’s up the Greek the Greek special translate two Seas by the nymphs and these people would withdraw toothpaste and they would devote themselves to a 10-month like worship the nips so they would find cigar and I tend the garden and then they have people coming along and going on pilgrimages to visit these guys have devoted their whole lives to the nips so possession can be a positive thing so long as we dealing with benevolent gods and benevolent Spirits where is from a Christian standpoint Minnesota position is able Christian cultures and physician is understood by Christian culture but it’s something that’s desirable once you have a spirit possessing you you have access to all sorts of knowledge and hygiene Palace that you wouldn’t have access to otherwise on a similar vine when we look at the Mill has a familiar with familiar spirits in the Middle Ages good looking at the. From the 15th century onwards in the United Kingdom they were cutting fuck you were healers in the roast of people practicing witchcraft who would have a familiar Spirit during The Witch Trials of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries in the United Kingdom hundreds of which drawers that we had a significant proportion of them had people talking about having access to a familiar spirits and it’s this familiar spirits which would enable them to be able to heal and have all sorts of knowledge they wouldn’t otherwise have so it’s me again that is a possession experience so again it reinforces the idea that position can be a positive thing as long as you dealing with a appositive and see can we hold there for a minute and just go deeper into some of those archetypes in and terms and stuff yeah cool will that I appreciate that set up but I feel like I’ve been on a mission to make similar statements about how there are DD possession trance states that you can enter into melee where you can have healing powers powers to heal yourself if you allow others into gain access to information that otherwise would be beyond your reach so you know you can still there should be a also feel like I’m glad you mentioned that there’s been a a demonization of the Demons the lights it’s quite literally and I always feel like okay this Angels demons God the devil is sort of this really reductionist binary when really the the Ecology of Souls and Spirits beyond our perception is so vast and you know it’s so it’s it’s I think it’s a form of spiritual discrimination to just classify demons even to use that word I just felt like there’s good that doesn’t seem like it takes into account all kinds of different species there’s different species of you know ladybug is a beneficial insect but a termite we would consider unless we’re eating them we would we live in mud Huts it would matter but with her stick frame homes we think you know we want ladybugs in the garden and we want termite staying out of our out of our home but it would be like calling like saying insect demons are like insects there just this blanket you know this blanket term that doesn’t account for the variation so I appreciate that you you know I made that point and I definitely resonate with that and I’m excited to learn more as soon as you go further with the you know what what happens during exorcism but to take a little paws on the idea of possession can you break that down so you can there’s those two different stages of possession or different sort of qualities of position that you mention from Play-Doh is there a way that you would lay out the degrees of possession from you know of a thought arising in your mind that seems like an alien top form to you know channeling a voice to you actually having your whole body you know moved and so there’s gradations of how much possession the spirit good or bad you know has over your your mind your voice in your body right so do you have that kind of any kind of thoughts on that I do have a couple of thoughts and I don’t expect everyone to agree with me these these are my personal conclusions regarding benevolent entities that we invite ourselves please start with an e will you bring the empty into yourself so from ceremonial standpoint you to study for the banishing to remove all negative influences and then the particular NC that want to work with so dealing either with a God or older than angel or some sort of benevolent Spirits he then invite that screwed into you so you can have that Spirit working through you have access to knowledge in the lock and it seems to me that possession is a type of 3D pins acacian to you but possession is will you allow yourself to be taking over Texas tonight make it totally taken out of a tight like forget about that they have no knowledge of what they doing it all so once they come out of the trance it’s like they’re not really aware of anything that’s happened before where is switch possession by negative entities The Experience isn’t sore after normally there are those people who will actually bring demons into themselves I don’t particularly like that idea but you can’t they’re up there are people who will want to work safe and so the demon asmodeus they will invite him into themselves and I’ll go into the reasons why I’m not comfortable with that in the minute but the thing is that I went when you’re working with a negative MC it’s a case of the empty some help Works play in it works in 26 really emotionally vulnerable BMC comes in gets a foothold and then eventually stopped consolidate its hold on you and that whole intensifies until you have full-blown possession stages of infection and kind of sucks you very good analogy an interesting way when we look at Egyptian and Babylonian ridings they would describe various ailments Thomas’s to the action of demons no one was just a Doctrine eyes that you’re basically combination of an exorcist and the doctor said that he lives in those days would cost cost at the Spirit which was causing an element and then treat that almond as best as I could it was it was a tree farm today so normally when you negative entities when we look at Medieval Grandma’s like for instance see on the Lesser key of Solomon you have the operator standing within a magic circle that protected within a magic circle and I have a triangle of manifestation to the Northeast and they help and negative ends the agreement of sorts to appear within within that triangle of manifestation search The Institute within a column of smoke or a canopy with in a Black Mirror scrying Mirror and then so basically the instincts constraints and you’ll standing apart from that Instagram you’ll protect it then at the end of day to take you to your Vanishing and then you go back to normal everyday lost its the closest on the very elaborate process we protect yourself and you invite this negative and so you eat you I’m either negative and state so that you can question it Amtrak with a Cinderella I just want to make it into yourself defeats all the safeguards are inheriting called the patient process that’s why I have a problem and say so that’s an important distinction evocation would be to summon an entity to appear before you and a constrained condition with boundaries set and you’re protected within your circle an invocation would be to invite them actually to within your giving consent to be possessed it’s a matter of degree and actually invite something into you so that you can learn things from it but not give you spell 5 it’s hardly once once once you give yourself a try the tightly to the MC that’s what football position takes place is there a protocol procedure classically or anything that you studied or discovered that says like she need this is how you negotiate that contract of what you’re going to do what you’re going to allow or what you’re going to Grant access to like permissions like to a website or something here’s my database you know password for my body hears for my tongue you know Aldara there are packed into in in medieval times but again it was a case of the other the classic fact is where you are still use salt to kill demonic entity you know what do you believe that that’s anything is possible or not is another matter it’s part of our own part of the folklore the time you know the doctor’s house in the like all these people who would steal their souls in return for in return for Palace one of the more modern versions of the legend is Robert Trump going to be the crossroads and Meghan meeting up with a friend who works Conjuring he will actually use the term dark Rider rather Robin the devil the devil is it used to scare people away from entering into these sorts of arrangements so I’m currently wooden conjure circles the young victim. Products used that’s what I’ve been told it’s not really my area of expertise but I just brought it up as I am handsome Walden example cuz I’m venturing into park and your Legend has it that Robert Johnson was a very mediocre Taurus butt off to making this packed wound up being the most influential Blues guitarists ever and what and apparently Robert Plant’s actually went to the crossroads and got himself almond on for the genius part of the first wave of crowd Crowley or curly kind of speakers in the rock and roll in the street too so it’s in Jimmy Page was a great admirer of Aleister Crowley and he had the second largest original collection Frawley manuscript boss kamado which was all these residents would she purchased notice only ever melon operation hello in Sicily well she’s a real collector that’s more than just collecting a unlimited amounts of money then I’m here. So I kind of sort this out and and I’m seeing that a what we would consider to be a beneficial state of possession there’s going to be a consent and an understanding in place of what the boundaries of the possession are when you’re dealing with an entity that respects you and your wishes and your boundaries and does not wish to harm you or harm others through you and that’s why they’re benevolent in and then they’re not going to they’re going to have maybe their own hyperdimensional intelligence about your will and your your karma Your Destiny or you’re not going to interfere with certain things are not going to funeral making you know drive off a cliff like joyriding and you now and then so you can you would want to call upon time-tested trusted names of entities where people feel like they have a good track record of five stars for not driving off cliffs and then with that level so that makes sense that there’s sort of that they kind of know where you’re like boundaries are and maybe you stay at them through part of the ceremony or maybe you trust them or you’ve already work with them but that seems like it just sort of works itself out somehow and then but then with the so-called demonic entities or maybe we should better say harmful and that he’s there looking to sneak their way and without you really knowing it or detecting them doing it and then try to grow infection to where you don’t know that you’re being taken over and you mistake your thoughts UE basically start having thoughts that you don’t that start to accumulate or impulses or what not and then all the sudden like your personality has been hijacked or you could say hacked you know like you’ve been hacked by these spiritual malware programs viruses and they’re just running the show at whatever level and they they might actually look for your weak points in your boundaries and try to exploit them and some people would take on the task of Contracting with them invoking them evoking them and just taking their chances and hoping that they don’t lose their will or lose their free will to them I mean is that but you’re you’re basically playing with fire if dealing with ones that don’t respect your boundaries or don’t communicate with you in a transparent and honest manner I put I personally agree with all that I personally wouldn’t risk inviting anything but I considered to be negative inside me but there are those who I saw men should be father of those she will invite demons into themselves show me the most famous case was when I was to Crowley was in the desert with a Rubix annoyed yum in Fort Collins on UC archdemon of chaos and he probably sat in the triangle and you thought is demon into himself and there are those who say but she’s managed to fully banish cards on L Street Pizza. True or not I don’t know I mean there are people who are always considered to be Scholars of Crowley it’s just one of these is that if you only had two coffees the average person should definitely keep away from demonic entities into themselves but again that’s my opinion and you know I’m happy to share it with others to ask but if it has to make up their own mind as to how far they want to go potential possession top experiences before you go off seeking out an exorcist see mental health professional first rule at all possible mental illnesses first one so that’s ruled out then by all names seek out an exorcist okay I got an exorcist it has to be someone working within a tradition that you believe him so for instance if you’re a devout Christian there’s no point getting a ninja to form an exorcism full year he’s going to be calling on God so you don’t believe that he has to find someone who’s working with in a tradition that you resonite with well yeah there’s this is a real deep study okay so thank you for allowing me to zoom in on some of those terms and make those distinctions I think we’re setting up a good sort of introductory framework for you know especially first of all just busting the the of the myths that all spirits and all forms of possession are evil that such a big step forward for for people’s thinking in into it’s exciting to be able to open that up so now now will will let you get back into the the flow of your discussion of exorcism an ancient world and yeah please continue with that that line of thinking basically talked about possession within various countries I looked at ancient Egypt I looked at Mesopotamia I looked at Israel and then I finally arrived at night and see which is my main area focus and I looked it up lines of tyana to a certain