Mark Michaels and Patricia Johnson

Designer Relationships with Mark Michaels and Patricia Johnson TPP93

In this episode I’m joined by my favorite tantric power couple to talk about applying tantric principles and techniques to create designer relationships beyond the mono-normative mythology.

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About Mark and Patricia:

Mark A. Michaels and Patricia Johnson are the authors of the new book Designer Relationships: A Guide to Happy Monogamy, Positive Polyamory, and Optimistic Open Relationships (Cleis Press, September 2015). A devoted married couple, they have been creative collaborators––teaching and writing about relationships, sexuality, and Tantra––since 1999. In addition to Designer Relationships, they have written Partners in Passion (Cleis Press), Great Sex Made Simple, Tantra for Erotic Empowerment, and The Essence of Tantric Sexuality (Llewellyn). They are also the creators of the COVR Award-winning meditation CD set Ananda Nidra: Blissful Sleep.

Internationally known as experts in sexuality, Michaels and Johnson have taught throughout the United States, as well as in Canada, Europe, and Australia. They have been featured on television and radio and widely quoted in numerous publications. They are cofounders of the Pleasure Salon, a monthly gathering in New York City that brings together sex-positive people and pleasure activists from a variety of communities.

p&m8Michaels is a graduate of New York University School of Law and holds master’s degrees in American Studies from NYU and Yale. Formerly a playwright and translator, he has translated, adapted, and cowritten various works for the stage. Johnson is a retired professional operatic soprano who toured extensively throughout the United States, Europe, and South America. She currently works in turtle conservation; she is certified in reptile monitoring by the Smithsonian-Mason School of Conservation and is a New York state-licensed wildlife rehabilitator.

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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin podcast episode number 92 I am here on Skype with Mark and Patricia Michaels and Mark and I had done an episode a while back about Tantra and punk he had a seminal essay that I found when I was Googling around in the early days of my Township Punk adventures and I was like wow this is a serious precedent in this deep into the mosh pit is a sort of Kundalini Shakti experience and a lot of really fun stuff those of you have that certain Punk background please go back in and check that out and yeah now that we’re all here together for the first time I would love to get a the story of your background together in your Your Love Story and you’re encountering your sacred sexuality paths and and then all of the bibliography of your great co-creative works and then now what brought me into this you know to Cosmic nice to have you on together now is that you’re doing some really amazing groundbreaking coursework for the top level of six allergy and therapy and sexual therapy so really helping people understand how to consciously design relationships that are really meeting people’s needs on a deeper level beyond the the mono normative mythology that were that were stuck in here that was something of Patricia said just a minute ago so with all that said Thank you again so much for joining me and please go ahead and tell us all about you and your infinite Glory 1999 previous sexual experiences were really like I was getting these little glimpses into something I felt was very very profound and then it would just go away and I was like what is that I don’t feel like there’s really a lot there and I started researching Western Sex Magic practices taoism Tantra and was really the concept of sexuality is a energetic phenomena rather than a physiology really resonated with me and I really I really had a keen interest it’s it’s funny when you’re you’re dating a gentleman in their twenties and you go hey the sex was really great but we can do really cool stuff look at this book how they react oh my God I don’t even want to talk about it wasn’t successful in finding someone who was interested in practicing with me at that time I was giving a lecture in New York in 1999 and it was my first public talk on Tantra and I was very nervous and very very over-prepared and and I I came in with a stack of papers and I gave my talk and you was there and she said she brought to Tricia up and introduced us I was thinking that this was the first time I I I was just really wanted to learn more about Tantra at that point in my life and I remember sitting in that lecture thinking all right mr. Tom’s room and you only see your teacher cuz you can’t get laid right cigars like leaning back hands crossed against my chest and the guy newest stuff I was like this is a really interesting and at the end of it he offered up his email address this is beckons Isle of days it was so fun and you just said if you have any questions and I was like somebody I can start talking to about this stuff so we started a pretty Lively email conversation Reddit turn up the listserv together so I was I had seen some of her posts and eat I realize that although she didn’t have the sort of the information piece that I had from doing a lot of research that energetically she was she was right there and understood all of those aspects really really well the later we ended up finally getting together actually I screwed up my courage and ask them out to coffee and we ended up having sushi together and I was like right before going oh my God what am I doing in my hiring this guy that I’d like to teach me that I don’t know if I can do that but I’m like oh my God I really want to know station that might my teaching role was not going to be at all hands on at that point I was really interested in where in imparting information and giving people skills not not doing the Hands-On stuff and also be having read what she’d written you know I I kind of knew that there wasn’t a whole lot that I could teach her I can teach you anything and I was like oh you know can we at least be friends and I said why don’t why don’t we explore the sexual and so we really just decided to get together to practice I’m so happy to hear we are 18 years later Tantra when we started with which I gave I am it’s so powerful so powerful we use it everyday we still this is our go to practice and I never thought I would ever be in a long-term relationship and I definitely marriage was not part of my life and then furthermore I never thought I’d write books with its Johnson so that’s a little bit of our story and and so we started practicing together and I think we taught our first class together about six months after that it’s a basic intro in a basic little teaser kind of class we started looking but we really wanted somebody really tied in with traditional training so I wish we weren’t funny so easily in the Americas in the US so we landed on dr. John Mumford who had been going to India since the 50s since he was young Rogue one of the one of the first kind of first generation of American Tantra books that ecstasy through Tantra which was called initially sexually sexual occultism which came out in 1976 I believe very extensive online worse that he still teaches to this day and it’s his students worldwide and it is the real tradition you learn as you go through the chakra system but you spend three weeks per chakra studying all aspects of it and really getting well-versed in knowing your inner energetic working switch is you know unique to each person is a profound experience mentions the sexual aspects but the focus of the course is really on the esoteric in her energetic and not the the sexual side of it but it’s if it’s really it is it is a very very profound experience of of going deep into traditional practices the the structure of the teaching and the chakras was it kind of one by one starting from going from root to Crown or and then if you have just any bullet points of the outline I’m just curious route to Crown that’s like the top was Schutte practice and he wants you start working with you the chakra system and learning the sensory organs the yantras which we’ve worked hard on internalizing on it’s like you’re getting at something external and he’s a sociopath by training and Physiology right or anatomy anatomy and so he use the physiology of the eye the ocular functioning to open a window to internalize that yantra by using the complementary colors you i gaze at it for a while and when you close your eyes that yantra pops into your inner Consciousness it’s it’s profound it’s like that he discovered how to get into the into the Psyche on that way that’s just one of the practices it’s it’s pretty one of those steady ones and I’m you’re fine as you work up through the chakras this way there’s this layering of knowledge that bills on it so your building on your previous knowledge and it just starts to on that Foundation before you even get to this whole structure and the results of the instead of being an abstraction or being something that seems sort of woo-woo the you get this internal sense and I don’t really care personally whether the chakras are a real thing or not they’re they’re really useful for mapping you’re in our world and that’s kind of the way he taught it and by getting it into your body in that way by realizing how the mantras affect your body it gives you a really really focused and specific way of thinking about them it’s very personal at the same time knowledge and so many different way everyday life awesome episode maybe we can jump ahead into the writing because our first book was was based on his lectures that he gave him in the in the mid-70s in Gnostic on which was one of the first of those kind of occult on you no cons that they haven’t hotels probably be first first time and initiated Swami and gave a public lecture on the sexual practices of Tantra unfortunately some people kind of co-opted his work and what we really wanted to do was restructiv bring it back bring it into written form update it with his you know when we works with his original notes in an expanded with his current knowledge cuz it’s this man is physiology did you know that was not that have not been done back then so we kind of Flushed it out and you know updated sort of perspectives on gender we we brought in more contemporary and more of our take on it for sizes and stuff so it’s really fun book that’s called the essence of tantric sexuality that’s our first one came out in 2005 and it’s still cruising along so you’ve had a number of other a number of other titles and then so designer relationships is the one that will will definitely focus on the most here but I’m curious if you want to gloss over the other titles in that before we get today backwards in a funny way and then moved in a very different directions to Arc are people read essence of tantric sexuality in and said well this is great but I really am a beginner and this too much for me so that’s has 14 lessons and it’s designed to work through individual as a couple or with how many lovers you have is your group that you want to work with is really it’s a workbook with a lot of journaling and a lot of self-exploration we focus on on sexuality is a way to have mystical experiences and and sexual self knowledge is the gateway to personal empowerment didn’t people said that’s great we want a beginners book great sex Made Simple which is our Tantra doesn’t bite and it’s very proud of that book that book 1 several literary awards and it is distilled down each chapter is about 602000 words and you can put it on your bedside crack it open look at a technique and go hey honey let’s try this tonight it’s it’s fun it’s really a fun book but we also really charged with the tantric sensibility in perspective as we understand it so that even though it’s a tip kind of format in it and a quick and easy read for people it it’s got a lot of pretty obvious it’s very stuck in some really bad practices that we just couldn’t help ourselves it’s just like we knew publisher approached us because we were a couple teaching about relationships and stuff she was like we really want a couple’s book and that was clear press they do a lot of lgbtq the leading queer publishing house in the country guys can you include lgbtq people and we’re like on Howard how they love or who they love you know because that changes the key principles behind a successful relationship doesn’t seem to change so much so that’s Partners in passion when we after we wrote partners and passionately we I guess we were just doing whatever press we could and we got an opportunity to go on a a show that was being done by a fine independent production house but that was also going to be shown on Fox News in DC and it was on polyamory and open relationships and we kind of got on the show is experts and the what are the really the trigger for me to to do designer relationship was that the interviewer said she had talked to people if she done person on the street interviews and she said about 40% of the people that she talked to said they felt it up and relationships can work that really blew me away because we’ve been going to polyamory events from day one and you know where peripherally involved in the movement and I guarantee you in 2004 she wouldn’t have gotten 40% of the people saying it you know they were okay with the idea about the relationship I just wouldn’t have happened so yeah that was really exciting and it really seemed like the culture was ready to start finding a new way of relating because you’re moving into designer relationships where you wanted to move Beyond a binary concept you know either you’re open you’re closed your monogamous or your non-monogamous and that fact is is no one is either one of those were kind of in a Continuum in the middle 10% of purely I don’t like things to contemplate to find out how and where they uniquely find their loved one at relay and now you know when stop comparing yourself to this like the monolithic mono normative saying that it’s and it’s mythical everyone acts like it’s very real but no two people to find it the same way and I need to let me know I think that we also have a lot into history and and and sort of the way that relationships have evolved in our society and I grew up in the 70s and we people talked about premarital sex you know save it for marriage but you could do it before you got married Twin Oaks who is is there are are are beef I guess is not is with his unconscious with a forcing of people like they do but where else to be in life sign a contract for life and never discuss the terms with the person you’re going to we wanted he were big fans of chosen monogamy and we do and we’ve interviewed couples that have gone through all kinds of relationships tiles and realize that their who’s in the best Ultimate relationship style is a monogamous one for the midnight that’s gorgeous whatever your relationship starts to look like as long as it’s chosen consciously and after many discussions and when many possibilities are you going to really land on what’s perfect for you and your your beloved’s Sunnyvale you know depending on circumstances I mean so yeah do you do you have more you want to share about the course that you just the course where you put together and that seems like it’s a head that must have been a major undertaking to take this and make it into a real track you can take an individual course of anybody’s welcome so you don’t have to be on track to become a sexologist so you can just take an individual course just cuz you’re interested in that topic and yeah it we outlined introduced the students to various relationships types and really that a lot of people really enjoyed and you know it it’s a I don’t remember how many lessons are exactly in the course but there’s homework with each one is it 14-3 assignment for people to watch and respond to songs that deal with different kinds of relationships Styles it’s a sex continuing ed credit eligible and is there another one where else we go we want people to write their definition of monogamy I believe that’s in there I haven’t it’s been awhile since I basically it’s geared toward people who are dealing with clients so we want to provide students with tools to help clients who are dealing with these type of questions and he’s that process right that’s so cool yeah just said that I don’t people don’t know what they don’t know and if they are on the language they can’t even imagine thinking out of the box into this ether of amorphous who knows we’ll head but if there’s actually a structure of known relationship types that can be patterned and can be sort of model and then and then adapted that’s seems like a really should go back earlier and in our armed or primary education about what’s possible designer by no means comprehensive because you know you know it’s a rough outline but it is not completely new wrinkles that you know people to find sex or sexual energy is also still expanding its exciting yeah definitely this is it’s great that there’s a the demand is is increasing and you all are on the Forefront of supplying some very healthy guidance and I think about it it’s a lot of people that don’t live well or represent their lifestyle of being on a ton truck path well or can kind of give it a bad name or they can leave a bad taste to return people ask but I feel like I owe you all have a sort of a higher level of as you might not see but certain certainly credibility and having your lasted as a passionate couple and then do you want to talk about what what his work best for you or what some of you know if you had to drink some of these obviously like you said everybody’s different but you know maybe there’s probably beginner and up to advance levels that require a lot more self-mastery and then you know I’m just wondering if you have a sort of a simple cheat sheet to the beginning was really really that’s the foundational practice process communication is important talking to be overrated that means basically people feel a rift you know they still a little distant from their partner and they think or maybe a little irritated me they have some conflict and the first thing I want to do is start trying to talk their way back into feeling connected again and the reality is that’s really backwards you communication is not going to happen well when you feeling misunderstood her or distant from your partner you you got to be in with connecting silently on energetic level and once you start to feel that your breath relax and all of that and then start those conversations with me it’s worth the effort and it takes is stops a lot of microaggression Tendencies You Know You Remember on a deep deep level that you’re really Partners you’re together and that whatever this issue is your working together collaborating to come up with Solutions you know you’re not working against one another and so the eye gazing we do it will we do it if we feel a little bit of a rest and ideas for 3 or 4 minutes is it happened before where Markle go okay you know we can talk now you know what was bothering you and I’m like what I don’t remember you know and sometimes really what’s bothering you is that you’re still out of sync you know it’s not the milk it’s not you know who wrote that email is not that silly stuff you just want to feel connected yeah there’s certainly I totally agree with that I feel like I’ve had two I wanted to win getting becoming romantic with someone really build the habit of no dancing through conflict or you know okay we got to somehow meet in in the non-verbal affirmative space and then that just takes that for one if you’re you’re less likely to yell at each other if you’re sitting really close to her chest in the tenderness is Whispering and being closed it it just takes that that said out of the emotions little bit of sure idea out there in our culture that a happy relationship is a conflict-free relationship and actually City’s true that to be wrong if couples report that they never fight they’re lying so yeah we fight but we get through it and so it is not looking for Conflict Free your conflict as an opportunity to really learn more and get to get deeper connection and game deeper understanding and not weeds to bonding it’s how you resolved the conflict that matters really more than whether it’s there or not you are prescribed so to speak of or around the issue if I’m having kind of a mission statement in a bigger picture in a higher purpose that’s really well defined and can kind of always be dated but I just feel like if a couple is living moment to moment just trying to get their basic kind of childish needs for Comfort mat and they’re not focused on the bigger picture where they’re going to accept that there’s going to be some molehills that you know you don’t want him to turn into mountains in your really focused on a higher Journey you know a bigger Mission so is that something that you have seen as being a core element to successful Partnerships and something that you would see no invite people to explore purpose statement of purpose and I think you know why are you guys so fucking good together you know why are you so awesome what’s list all of that and be clear and then move on to you know of those wonderful what is are there ones that we can explore further you were Superstars now what if we could eat at the same time is our and then we move into goals you know Siri start with reaffirming your foundation people who wanted to open a relationship or start being more adventurous sexually together and we we did encourage them to craft a statement of purpose around. Specific thing so you know what do we hope to enhancing our relationship through this exploration what you know what are our concerns how can we deal with those concerns so rather than having rules and agreements other of those have their value this was much more about having having mutuality having shared goals and then we we type of expanded that incident the entire relationship it’s you know it’s not a contract it’s not a negotiation it’s a it’s a vision statement this conversation and talk about the Uso and it in there this you want to also talk that if we feel like we’ve hit a bump how are we going to how we going to get back on even footing and I know what works for us are we going to let you know take a break let’s say you know we’re exploring BDSM or something as a you know what exercises you know what is that happens all I’m going to need a week off you know just to contemplate and you know what Justin and then we can talk again or talk about it again or whatever works for everyone I’m kind of seeing that there’s more power and resilience in the affirmative the foundation material that you’re describing and lessen the yeah punitive scary rules what all hell you know what the hell breaks loose will be the end of the world if our the deal breakers in all that negative stuff I feel is what kind of event horizon or what I’m what I’m working through that I’m curious if you know what you what your thoughts will be is around around the the work of sexual healing and in working with survivors of sexual trauma and sort of what I’m arriving at myself as a Survivor who’s been sort of called by that the Dharma of being in service and is a DACA morning to do that in the most highest ethical way in and have the most accountability in the most scrutiny and oversight I’ve kind of arrived at it at a point where I feel that there is a a I need for certified Collective collectives of healers to work together in where there’s various roles were people are playing you know you sure very all very well-versed in the different healing techniques and it feels like a lot of my peers and colleagues who are in the mail. Ghostface are really putting themselves and their their clients in in potential Peril by just working in privacy alone without at least one Observer who is a nurturing playing a role of a nurse that say but I feel like what what I’m hoping this can evolve towards is and I’m kind of pioneering this in my own practices is more of a collective safety-net almost like a sexual healing welfare program where instead of getting into a toxic relationship where you might you know have to relive trauma or be with an unskilled non-healing the person that there’s a sort of foundational opportunity to experience and to have a a bare minimum requirement of your nourishment nurturing and healing needs met and then that gives you more discernment in the dating world but say I’m just wondering if you have what your thoughts are advice around people who are a little more sensitive and Andrew and you know they’re just trying to kind of put themselves back together in and use the time the time sheet skills and in tools for those kind of purposes back to the early days when Patrician I met I made a very conscious choice that I didn’t want to identify as a Healer I didn’t want to do healing work because I don’t think that’s where my skills are I think of myself as an educator and I think that it’s very very perilous when you get into positioning when when anyone gets into the positioning themselves as being a Healer site I’d like what you’re saying about accountability I think that’s really important and it’s been lacking in the Tantra world for sure I like the community relational part because the person facilitating really right it’s basically you’re guiding your client into understanding and finding their own internal part of their self that will heal themselves you know you should feel like taking them to finding their so call themselves you know so but in that the collaborative part I think that’s when that happens it’s a relational process as well I guess it a crude sense I kind of feel like what happens is that you’re just jump starting someone Shakti and then once you kind of once they’re running again then they can start to rebuild the you know the resilience in themselves and make better decisions ultimately and just get out of those karmic loops and knots that if they’re really depleted in The Prana you know and they’re just all the whatever pranav they have left is just being sort of sucked out by human energy vampires and buy their own inner you know energetic parasites than there really crippled and and you probably see people who get to get into a healthy tantric Community or a relationship that’s not re-traumatizing and isn’t corrupt then you see people really bought them out of just been amazing before-and-after Transformations and just yeah there these there’s a lot of issues involved in that process where if I got really want to be funneling folks to your work so that they can let say have more skills and tools to not over over identify with or bond with her project things on people who are playing a more healer surrogate kind of role and you know that’s that’s a whole a whole can of worms so any do you have any thoughts or vice around kind of energetic sovereignty and how you build that how do you help a person build that up so that they are capable of being in other people’s energy and getting sort of a taste of that nurturing nectar but not getting addicted to it and falling into another trap opposition and Power boy and I are at your I think you’re very wise track to think of having a community of healers that work together and you know or maybe accountability and stuff but yeah power power oh boy you can have all kinds of rhetoric we’ve been around Racine where people we’ve seen people get up and give a lecture and talk about how humble they are the whole time and really go on and talk about how amazingly humble they are they are so humble that you know on a very famous preacher invited him on his private jet and it was like what I was looking at 4 to get a Christian but you could hear it from anybody and I need any and deficient used and so just because someone’s using a language and has sort of the tone and sort of has that demeanor really trust your gut feeling because some of the most lugubrious you knows live people can cause such damage and be really drunk on Power and Drunk on Power can be being so humble that you know I only need a bowl of rice today and I want to tell the world I only try so I live off of are you know it’s Wednesday you know when it is so slippery sing it really is another thing that is that’s really important and I think doesn’t get talked about enough and I’m going to use it therapy word but I think it’s super important for anybody who position themselves as any kind of authority is countertransference and I think that too few people who are in the role of being teachers healers whatever doing of self-examination look closely enough of what their motives are what their agendas are what they’re projecting onto the person they’re working with what you know how their ego is being fed and all of this and I think it’s it’s just majorly important for people to do that and you know what you were talking about before about community and accountability is one way to keep sad you know in the in the Forefront but it’s super important because I think the people frequently get re-traumatized because the person who’s been entrusted with their well-being isn’t self-aware enough we don’t we really there is certain areas we do not go as deep as some of these incredible. Dekhini healers you know go really into some deep hugely powerful I I personally don’t feel strong enough and rude enough to go to certain ducks with people on my work with people who are good with people are not so good we’re grounded a not so grounded and I decided early on that I really didn’t feel that I could handle the doing the Hands-On work that it wasn’t my where my skills were that I could be more effectual as as a teacher and a guy I think that those issues of transference and countertransference can still show up but they’re a little bit easier to manage and and I can feel that I’m clear and clean is a row that I’ve chosen do you feel like some of that the problematic the Tendencies just have also to do with the murkiness in the liabilities involved in the end of the doctor patient therapist patient sort of from the financial Dynamic and that expectation of certain results based on certain payment method plans and it’s it’s it’s it’s hard to fit this kind of stuff into that’s why it’s been so taboo for so long in the western clinical you know world right it’s it it’s the slipperiest of slopes and see how do you the money has nothing to do with it I mean people can act and you know say hey I’m going to give you a free session and they can still be unbounded so the money I really doesn’t make you found grounded or not snappower okay so what my ideal vision of the world I want to be born back into a hacking my next life you can say is that I would really like they’re four they’re too I like to leave this world knowing that I was helping You instrumental in setting up a sort of a sort of Clinic style way for people to access sexual healing in group settings where there’s a diffusion of power and a rotation of positions of perceivable power and not going in both directions so basically no one no one could it be put on a pedestal and no one could be perceived as being on a pedestal if that pedestal is is in rotation and there’s a sort of flattened hierarchy of you could call and Priests and priestesses or whatever but if we we have a fantasies about how there there were temples where people had work this kind of stuff out and you know for example if a Warriors coming back from Battlefield would get loved on profusely by skilled dakini lovers or lovers and it wouldn’t whatever configurations and then they will be returned to their Villages and and be restored and sort of deal you traumatized so they wouldn’t just come back and be a menace in their communities and you know where seems like we don’t have opportunities like that and the next best thing is just whatever is going on at the local dungeon for a play Party in the king scene in and I don’t want to put that down anyway but I feel like there’s there’s just not as much of a developed it’s tell me if I’m wrong but it doesn’t seem like there’s as much of it as a developed kind of Fellowship around tantric communal play space that’s really intention to for healing and nurturing there’s just not as much of that infrastructure culturally as areas within the can-can BDSM world and I’m wondering if you’ve encountered kind of fun any Collective type resources whether it’s through Meetup sore or people just operating you know on a mailing list that are there living room or you know it’s absolutely not going to happen tomorrow at the YMCA they’re not going to have a contra de you know but but so we have to build and that you know that that was the young men and women’s Christian Association so there is a young man and woman’s Tantra Association where you go and you learn stuff and you’re at you know you get to practice Sexual Health and Fitness and Wellness and your supported and it’s affordable and mean and it’s just an institution or just visit I really want you to create this could and then I really want to attend this could be my trip but I really think one thing one way of keeping power and check is to do it as soon as low-cost or no-cost as possible so One Vision I have recently was just you know if you was just getting together with anybody who’s the first in many different healing modalities and have it be a healing Circle for healers but not like you to cover the cost of a room rental but beyond that no one’s pocketing any cash know once you know and then you get to draw cards and have an individual healing session with pure who does another modality that I think could really flush out everyone’s skillset and heal the Healer right put it up there and see if it goes viral see if people want to create just tell people how to create it in their community and see if see if people take bite and start doing it is the singer healers without healers become dead Healers so what are the things that we’ve always been about is Building Bridges among different communities so we we’ve done a lot of stuff with tank communities on swinging communities in finding the places where these things overlap big the kind of ghettoizing that that tends to happen in a lot of these movements is not productive and it’s much wiping much more worthwhile to look for places of of commonality so tatra and King you know there’s a lot of commonality I think that that’s something that we didn’t really understand until we started going to we’re so scared oh my God who is wow oh you know cuz they’re highly focused highly intentional energetic exchange is very you know each state staying there assistance suspended in a long periods of time you know it really changes but you know that there are again I’m going to go back to this efficient deficient you know I mean you can find people doing really bad Tantra I’m so I mean just cuz that you’re modality doesn’t mean you’re free of having bad sex so well well thank you so much we’re definitely yeah we’ve covered a lot of stuff and if you have do you have a few more minutes to take a few more questions and then we’ll call it a day teachers URL cuz I really wonder if people www. John Mumford it’s j o n n Mumford consult. Com consult singular so John Mumford consult. Com appreciate the pain that tribution are for sure it’s great so I’m just going to take a couple of breaths and kind of drinking what we covered in yeah I feeling like the big question for me and kind of overarching question for all this is is the I think the real the real gem or the real the core personal development peace that I I feel you owe are really a Guiding Light for and I just want to see if we’re if we’re speaking the same language about it it’s just this this hope that an individual who who is Ben Le say as long as as long as the Disney Classics are shaping the minds of every child you know we’re basically on I’m doing a deep conditioning the prince and princess fantasy of love and romance which is I will kill myself if you fail me in any way shape or form so it’s a constant hostage situation in every buffered by both so I would say there’s self-love there’s the love being connected to Nature there’s the love of being connected to the Divine and then if those three cylinders are functioning properly not even to mention all of that deep tissue chakra energetics and breathing stuff but just you know you spend time in nature you have a spiritual practice you don’t hate yourself and don’t feel internally depleted so then you can go out into the dating world and an in and instantly just people with lower vibrational Tendencies what kind of bounced off and then you can not be so you basically be immune to two unhealthy forms of codependency and that to me is like the the most beautiful transformative thing to witness about getting someone through a bunch of solo Township before getting them into you know I mean I got to eat the rice paragus before they get to eat the ice cream which is you know having time for a relationship or being in a group timeshare Pooja or something that’s more risky and you would want to have built at internal Court those pillars of of love and can and that’s kind of my my little micro thesis about about all this preparing to me no kind of the internal preparation to have more designer relationships do you all have a thoughts on what what what the solo times for the rigor of solo Township why it’s necessary and what you recommend for that to just be the preliminary for exploring these these non-disney well maybe Disney will do something like this is with yourself and to really relate yourself as a beloved and really nurture yourself and seek to fortify yourself sick to be in awe and wonder of yourself you know you can only spend so much time with someone else 32 x with yourself and sometimes a majority of your sex is with yourself too how to get completely free of all the baggage I mean we we live in a world where we’re bombarded with the baggage all the time just being in our culture right now is constantly traumatizing so I think that for me the purpose of the inner work is to develop self-awareness to know that you know we we to know what we’re carrying and to be less controlled by it you know it in some of the Buddhist Meditation they talk about noticing the gap and that doesn’t mean we don’t have the feeling but we we can notice the gap between the ceiling in the action and maybe choose differently so it’s a it’s a really slow process sometimes it’s three steps forward and four back and then it’ll be five forward and two back that it sits on going and I think it’s it’s really important to to keep that self-awareness the law you know throughout and and that’s it’s only with that but then we can then we can be in a relationship and aware of others awesome do you have any you just tips for the individual who feels like they they want to just all that rebound and the withdrawal symptoms of relationship it’s it’s it’s hard to get people to take the leap of faith to really do the inner work if they haven’t had a breakthrough yet so you know if you have any tips for people that might be listening while I want to access all this stuff but it’s it will be easier just to go and throw myself throw myself to the first take her at the singles bar our senior practice is our favorite relationship practice is eye gazing and ideas with yourself in the mirror and seal that deep reverence really don’t just look at yourself as an object we I think often objectify ourselves when we look at ourselves in the mirror really like look at yourself and be present with yourself it that’s it’s incredible and really just three to five minutes a day and people will feel change what you’re saying is super super important that I don’t know that I have a wise answer to it but we are conditioned so much to feel that we only have value to the extent that were in a relationship with another person people who choose to be single in our society are still really stigmatized there still the assumption that if you’re single it’s either because there’s something wrong with you you or you just haven’t found the right person yet and I think that it’s really really important for people to not to to step off that Marygrove Merry-Go-Round for a while to feel that if they’re in a relationship that ends that now I’ve got some time to get to know myself and I don’t have to jump right back onto the Merry-Go-Round very very hard thing to do I have a good friend who just passed away unfortunately but he was so much in this and he he fall in love with a new person every 4 or 5 months and you know be ready to sort of spend his life with them and they were moving into moving out moving in and moving be by yourself for a while and he couldn’t do it and I think that’s that’s true for a lot of people on and so then why do I have no wisdom because I just don’t know if you’re so caught up in that model and you can’t just take a breath and take a pause and say I’m going to take the time and be alone and and love the Solitude tapping into some deep love for yourself and really you know presents with yourself and being content you might not ever feel be able to find it with someone else I mean that that’s the attitude right you can’t love someone else until you fully love yourself and it did it becomes a platitude but there really is real a real part to it I mean serious stuff so it’s making me think that there could be a a new paradigm for a singles bar where you’re there to celebrate being single and he has to stay single where I’m going to have sex without the expectation that it’s got to mean I mean I think that it’s like we still you know that premarital sex thing I mentioned at the beginning we still I think are carrying that idea that sex has got it mean something more than just two people getting together to enjoy each other and that’s pretty wonderful meeting I mean Rockville over something like that out there trying to revalue the one-night stand or hookup culture there’s a misfit it leads to you know people feeling despondent devalued and in the in the studies are not proven that to be true there there are just as many people to feel a burst of energy and increasing self-esteem more Connection in the world and they don’t you know in that that one night stand that hook up was profound longevity doesn’t equal quality you know I’m saying it’s a it’s an allergy to have you ever heard of a term called bloatware it’s it’s it’s not like spyware or malware but would say you’re downloading something in you you think you’re only getting that program and then if you don’t check check the custom install they automatically inserts like five other programs in that hijack your browser in your search bar and all his stuff they call it bloatware and I feel like that’s that’s what happening when people believe that if you have sex with someone you also have to there’s an unspoken contract that now you owe them some chunk of your life and it’s so yeah it’s it’s it’s it’s a weird form of non-consent to have expectations that aren’t clearly laid out but alcoholism well but I agree totally yeah that’s that says it will be beautiful to have safe experimental environments early just list that stigma so people could stay kind of yeah I think this is all moving in in in in that that that general direction where if if less and less baggage coming in more and more gender fluidity and that helps people you know if your if you enjoy sex with both or or both genders and Beyond then it’s hard to pigeonhole one person is expecting them to give you everything and you know if you if it’s already kind of out-of-the-box you you know that you can never be in anyone’s everything because you you know you that they would desire more and that’s okay that’s kind of a nice buffer on that proprietary kind of clothes thinking too so a lot of material for people to follow up with and if you want to talk about your horizon what you might have coming up and certainly how people can connect and and and get your website info and all that good stuff getting contacts www Tantra Porsche Emma’s and marks of tundra we started doing Skype sessions wish we can be everywhere where everybody wants to learn but I’m in we also work with couples and more songs privately in the New York metro area Denver at the conference in April doing the keynote there and teaching workshop and will be in Washington DC for a Sex Therapy you at the end of April and a sect Cee program and certification program and we’re going to be hanging out with you when you get your your time to do the people you know yes cool yeah cuz it is kind of a country club it’s in the it’s in more of a country club kind of template right now but it definitely can can trickle down and they’ll be time for philanthropy and I will thank you to so much for again your infinite Glory I’m a big fan and that you know I say when I start to slow down to the point of of written text and not just million podcasts and million windows open then I will be catching up on your backlog of of your books and in the meantime I I definitely just to send good prayers and and lots of Hope and I love your way so keep rocking it take care bye-bye you for listening to the touch of Time Podcast please go to and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition of sustaining and improving the podcast your donations will help establish permaculture goddess temples that provide ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episode if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email event at Tantra Punk. Com