In this episode I am joined by one of my new personal heroes, Jim Struve of MaleSurvivor.org. He provides an overview of his life’s work in service to the male survivor community. As a pioneer in the field he shares deep and profound insights into the scope and severity of this issue. I’m very grateful that he graciously held supportive space for me to vent my frustrations and share my concerns. Ultimately we agree that hopeful and encouraging progress is being made within the survivor community of all genders worldwide and that with better sexuality education, we may be able to effectively overcome this crisis.
Please visit http://www.MaleSurvivor.org to learn more about his great works.
Jim Struve, LCSW has been a practicing social worker since 1976. He is currently a Licensed Clinical Social Worker in private practice in Salt Lake City, providing psychotherapy services to individuals, couples, and groups. With special attention to mindful presence in the healing relationship, Jim works with a wide range of client issues: trauma (including male and female survivors of sexual victimization), relationship enhancement (including issues such as intimacy, assertiveness, identity, gender, self-esteem, and sexuality), healthy life choices, fostering resilience, conflict resolution, parenting, addiction recovery, and dissociative disorders (including Dissociative Identity Disorder). Jim is a founding member of MaleSurvivor.org and is Manager of the Weekends of Recovery retreat program. He was the recipient of the Richard Gartner Outstanding Clinical Services Award at the 2010 International MaleSurvivor Conference in New York City.
Jim regularly conducts workshops and trainings for professionals. He has been an Adjunct Professor for Westminster College in Salt Lake City (teaching a seminar in “Trauma, Grief, & Loss”) and he is frequently invited for in-services programs for agencies and college classes for clinical mental health students.
Publications for Jim include: “Dancing With the Patriarchy: The Politics of Sexual Abuse” (1990); The Ethical Use of Touch in Psychotherapy (1997) – co-author with Mic Hunter; “Beyond the Gay/Straight Binary: Gender and/or Sexually Diverse Male Survivors” (2018) – co-author with Howard Fradkin & Lee Beckstead; and “Empowering Male Survivors to Heal Through Community and Peer Connections” (2017) – co-author with Howard Fradkin, 2018.
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin hello dear beloved welcome to Township on podcast episode number 116 I am with Jim struzzi and he is a founding member of the male Survivor organization which I had the blessing to attend to a kind of mini conference in Los Angeles a few years ago and it was just really heartwarming and really nurturing tube to feel supported in in the space of being a male Survivor myself and to just Network and really important profound shifts and subsequent events happened from from the attending that and I’ve always over the years have the intention to reach out and get someone from the organization to speak in the podcast about wood what it is that they do and I got a notification from a Facebook group one of my one of my many email list that there’s going to be a week in recovery Retreat happening and so I was able to get gym Who is the the manager of that event and also to be on the show to talk about what that offering is and I also just give us some background and history about the male Survivor organization and how this movement of exposing this issue is is really starting to to move forward more more rapidly and effectively so with that said Jim thank you so much for being here and if you could just yet helped a little bit a little bit about your your personal life path and what brings you into a leadership role okay thanks and thanks for having me and welcome to all your your listeners glad to be part of this discussion kind of concise summary version of this is that I first got into the steel back in 1976 when I began to work for Child Protective Services Agency in Atlanta Georgia I was part of the Emergency Services Unit we investigated situations of child abuse in the black them because there wasn’t a lot of males have time, staff I ended up being a sign lots of the cases of boys who were being discovered for sexual trauma work to that job for about four and a half years doing in chicken emergency working then my journey has kind of taken me into becoming a licensed clinical social worker because of that it when I left that job at 1 residential facility working with primarily boys most all of them is sexual trauma been working a couple of psychiatric hospitals were a lot of the patients were sexual trauma survivors and along the way realize that there were very few limited services for males are the emerging back then for rape recovery centers in female survivors but not much for men’s so began to figure out what we could do to help some services and was fortunate enough to bump into a couple of other clinicians and singer who was up in New Jersey in. Jamaica was up in the Twin Cities at the time and we all were struggling with the same thing of Finding Dory she resources to work with this issue and we all pleasure going to try to see if we could pull together some conference to dress that issue and we were successful in 1988 to get there was a good to be a conference in Minnesota to work with sexual offenders and they agree to the date of their conference let us organize something around male Survivor so that in the fall of 1988 in St Paul was the first Gathering that we know of anywhere it was addressing this issue and one of the concerns was it’s a stereotype about the that males are more at risk for becoming a fender so we wanted to change that perception we decide an extra to do a conference in Atlanta get its focus solely on male survivors who were not offenders and effort into 450 people from 14 countries attended added that alarm system to the formation of the organization that eventually became male Survivor. Org we all kept doing conferences every year and then finally legally Incorporated in 1995 and he organizations exist it ever since in 2001 we added the weekend to recovery Retreat program 3-day Retreat for men who have experienced sexual trauma either as children or adults in the one we doing now in August of this year in Utah will be our 69th weekend we’ve done so we’ve been around for a while I put a lot of men who come to the program gotten her resources in so I can talk a little bit about the program as we go in but that’s kind of the vice versa of our history and evolution well thank you so much for sharing that I I I did not know it went back that far and that’s really exciting to hear so you must have so much inside now and so many positive outcomes to share do you want to talk about some of the some of the the program Services other types of resources that have evolved as you’ve been doing the conferences and the Retreats and the if somebody was just getting into Discovery Miss what would what would you recommend for them what was the main thing that we run into still to this day is most men who have experienced sexual trauma at some point during the lights still really feel like they’re the only one it’s very rare that a lot of people have met anybody else where that experience is limited exposure that she will head of the media or other places so one of the biggest things that happens with the organization with the weekend is just breaking the isolation and if nothing else happens that’s life-changing and of itself since we’ve been successful through near the internet is now around so that allows people to connect to network. Rooms discussion boards that are available to website so people no longer have to remain in isolation and the other thing that’s been helpful that way especially with cell phones technology the internet people can meet each other over a huge Geographic expands to send can begin to actually Chad and talk and learn from others who had the experience there’s also been a proliferation of literature books that have been written videos YouTube not have lots of materials available some major films that have come out that address the topic so I think it’s a little bit of a chicken or the egg kind of thing that I think we and other organizations like I was heavy into was that the discussion and have been able to help Foster much more public awareness at the same time and lots more people more and more people are finding someone in their life has been touched and probably already know this but the current research has that one of every for females experience the sexual trauma in their lifetime and what’s less known as it once every 6 male experienced sexual trauma sometimes I like and I think that’s because of Reporting Act much much closer to it being just as much an issue for males as it is for females and one thing we’ve been very clear about all the way along is we don’t want it to work with mail to take away or distract from the reality of sexual trauma with females gender-inclusive we don’t want to be stealing resources competitive we want to address the matter as it relates to both issues not for one to get some more attention than the other so we’ve been collaborating where we can with organization great recovery centers to really have gender inclusive spa services available awesome also well there’s so many questions I have for someone in your position really around will recently in Utah of all places I just buy synchronicity I guess you might have heard about how there was a declaration of pornography as a Public Health crisis the the public for what would be more restrictive laws to come out and I’m just I’m in that world and in certain ways and so I’m aware of those those developments but I feel that is as much as there is a desire to address the issue of corn which is an issue no matter what side is that you’re on it is it is the Pro or con it’s an issue but I feel like the the they’re starting to do more rigorous research around the effects of corn on the brain and I I just feel like it’s starting to kind of become a more sophisticated anti-pornography movement where eventually it’s going to be a scientific and medical research question where the policy will be decided by the research and I feel like that’s what I would love to see more proactively from the Survivor movement and I’m curious if you would have inside says to know other people working on really bringing this issue and the research about the prevalence of it and trying to kind of sound an alarm and get us into more of a Alert state where were I believe it’s the state of an emergency personally because of my experience and what I’ve observed just anecdotally but you would be in probably position to say hey are we what what are the the trends with being taken very seriously and having there be more of like a a bigger scale public Service Announcement kind of curriculum upgrade excetera excetera my my chicken this is the corn debate is one of those distracting issues that has become very politicized in his stealing attention away from things are rages over attention it seems to me they were under current issue is it weed we do not provide sex education sex awareness to anybody in our culture is very hit-and-miss weather people get to itself just like to be an emergency responder where we’re going to work with accident people have to be exposed to the issues I have to be alert to what happens so you can know what to do if you get into a situation where your emergency skills are needed we do not train are you do not train or culture to be alert to the emergency of being sexually assaulted is very little attention given that sofa so many people if it happens during childhood they don’t have a reference point maybe even know if what’s occurring to them is good battery neutral that’s just happening to them they’re being what is an overwhelmed by the experience and then because we are talk about sex we don’t talk about those things people know intuitively are instinctively don’t tell anybody about it or in this happens for man so often when they when they do discloses something happen there either blamed for a why didn’t you stop it why didn’t you protect yourself in it soon then should be able to do that or there may be some when why did you go back again why did you let it happen but we get into this really cauldron for lack of better words Cesspool for probably more accurate language in where we just don’t have the resources or the capacity to understand. Even process sexual trauma we don’t talk about it we get all of our discussion into things that we can vilify like pornography and it distracts the discussion over onto that pornography is a very real issue is very important but it doesn’t allow us to keep her attention that we need basic education about sexuality we need basic awareness of sexual and gender diversity we need people to understand their own bodies we need to understand the Dynamics when were invaded when founders are violated so the people have the resources to send to deal with sexual trauma in a very different way than we currently are and it just happens for women we debate whether the skirt was too short for the men why didn’t you leave a shadow is better if we spent all her time on that and then when it becomes legal instead of mental health it’s proving who’s telling the truth who’s right even when we know someone has the dick to my house we argue over who was right through his Ron rather than how do we help someone recover from their trauma right so we there is a lot of work to be done a lot of dimensions a lot of front lines and yeah you know what I don’t know when it was not too long ago I was looking at some application for a government related job and I don’t know form online but I just could not believe there was it seemed like there were pages and pages of graphic descriptions of forms of sexual abuse that you could not have been convicted for in order to have that job and you don’t do any but I guess to the average just tell him I say zombie or sheep with this is the average person uses walking to go to the Matrix urges if they’re desensitized and numbed out it’s like oh yeah well you know their sickos and creepy stranger danger so of course they’ve got to put the stuff in there but to me when I saw that I might well have we don’t think that were in the middle of a plague right right right you had to if this was an epidemiological issue it mean if the CDC were involved and they would be doing things to lock down populations in quarantine ready and they would be proposed putting up tents and they will be flying in with hazmat suits on tube to try to understand it at this level in spurts of just be well you know it’s kind of a slap on the wrist and then you have to be registered and you go to knock on the doors and there’s just this sort of what do you call even in The Big Lebowski they made a big joke about it they made a big joke about the John Turturro being the child molester in and it was, I’ve seen other really really despicable pop-culture mockeries of this issue that just made it made it really apparent to me that people are so so autopilot cognitive dissonance completely just so it’s so disturbing and disgusting and traumatic that it it just has to have these almost a caricature release valves in popular culture but it obviously doesn’t feedback do anything really constructive and I mean even remember there was that that music video complete and total really deeply disturbing creepy depiction of the sky who was all in his thirties maybe late thirties or totally dirty and nasty and find me and he’s in this skin suit dancing in this really perverted erotic dance with this little girl and it was supposed to be this art piece and it was total crisis within your organization and and what’s what’s happening with it as you move forward if your I guess where does the rubber meets the road with with with lobbying and an advising you know the Surgeon General committees on this I mean when will the when will there be a national federal task force and when will they be Consulting with you guys or how do we push that forward I guess in question policy you know what I think I think things are changing you’ll get a focusing particular ride on male sexual trauma for this discussion here rape recovery centers are now have grown and almost every Community has some resource recovery center that’s addressing services and most of them now as a mention that the beginning here are being becoming gender-inclusive so that there is much more service awareness with that child protective service agency is there are much more aware of this happening across the gender Spectrum there’s a lot more education campaigns that are beginning to happen and it’s slow but we are getting lots of Outreach organizations that are doing a Richburg food is getting to be more and more visibility now a Survivor and over the years we’ve been doing lots of public education we will going to community show movie have a panel discussion afterwards get good attendance I with those and then there are more and more men who are beginning to find the courage because they’re getting help the treatment where they can speak out about their own experience and when you think about one in every six man has been sexually assaulted at some point in their in their lifetime if everybody begins to disclose that somewhere Somebody almost everybody’s going to know I survived her and so therefore it’s beginning to be more in the couch it is not those people over there it’s someone close in our lives that really she people uncomfortable or discomfort in to talk about it on these issues in one very clear meth is it people are sexually traumatized by strangers true it almost most of the time people know the perpetrator is someone the perpetrator was someone in their life and so therefore it’s a stranger danger of being alert to people who are already in your lives in for boys for men a lot of the assault may happen from say for example is scout leader a minister a coach someone who’s who’s in who’s in the system and some people who made the gender non-conforming the presentation may be attacked Boyd has some kind of a hate crime that involve sexual assault by people who know the person being targeted because they’re not presenting is traditionally masculine that’s one of the bigger miss that we have to begin to confront it it’s the people in our lives that we need to be alert to not not as much for getting that at folkestone just done strangers but I can talk to about the video and the other they all promote that myth that if someone is lurking in the darkness and someone going to drive by a car and kick someone out for right I’ve heard that. I’ve heard some staggering statistics it’s the places where they were trusted usually typically men who are of whatever condition that inhibits the ability to have empathy I said I would say that’s the coming out there with your skin or drug addiction or alcoholism or other I mean that’s in it but you know how I feel like there could be a some sort of threat assessment infographic that shows people very clearly Here RV overlapping Circles of you know or the concentric circles of danger and then really the private residence is the most dangerous place to be a child and you’ll be safer running away and sleeping at the park then you would be potentially where you were drunk uncle or Neighbor comes over while your parents are checking out and parents are checking out now more than ever with their phones I can’t even imagine being a nation was it she had to work as a single mother to put food on the table she had to be gone long hours and that’s just you know who opened up for dangerous in the areas that we turn our backs into have trusted so-called adults there but I’m so do you have off the top of your head just to kind of breakdown of where the you mentioned some of the service providers or trusted you know people in the community that would have access private access to children when their parents aren’t there where there’s not a group of people watching and those obviously would be the you know the sort of like if we could map math at this out culturally you know to really know where to focus efforts is at can you speak more on that I think the reality is that we start from the point where a sexual trauma can happen when someone has access to a child or another adult and the risk factors increase with some predictable trajectory when you have a child or an adult who it was it was in some degree of vulnerability like for example a young child who is in daycare has stricken baby sitters Etc there’s nothing to say that a babysitter or daycare worker is inherently in a fender but it’s a place where you need to be alert to excuse or what’s happening with a child HughesNet setting and so often let me just jump ahead it’s when children or adults have access with someone who could be in a sander and they have some pretty obvious characteristic sometimes like sudden behavioral changes to their academic performance begins to fall they want to drop out of some extracurricular activity whatever and then lot of times as parents or the child mood either going through state Missouri Southern do people say did something happen is something wrong can you tell me more about what’s going on we chant it too often because we’re busy we got other things we just thought I passed out and Dylan are being but and then you may have an adult a coach to scout leader someone else who just takes a little too much interest in being alone with the children and we should pay attention to is something actress Sarah when we have a child or an adult who has a disability who has some kind of physical mental learning disability that makes them vulnerable to need to be in share with people who have undue access to them are we paying attention and accuse if something changes that something might have happened of paying attention to the people in our lives and noticing things that might change the alert us if something happened but also go back to sex education and relationship educating people about Good Touch Bad Touch shop appropriate boundaries and appropriate boundaries and helping the people our lives pay attention to them while we pay attention to the people in our lives that’s why we’re guess we’re going to get our ourselves around this and then we need to where we can change the culture where we going we don’t excuse we don’t charm and allow mistreating people to go on the show off of the sexual jokes that happened to kind of behaviors and fraternities the go on we trying to return look the other way and see what is just kids being kids and don’t realize the risk factors that people might be being exposed to alcohol and drugs can be part of the formula but a lot of times you don’t need alcohol or drugs the culture is permissive enough to allow Congress to be crossed bright I feel like if there was a sober kind of come to Jesus meeting as a culture every night I dream of the day where we will cancel Christmas in order to have a fireside chat with some leader or group of leaders who are willing to sit there and say everybody our religions are failing us are medications are failing us are so like how everything is failing as we cannot stop this we need to call for international state of emergency and we need to get it almost like I mean I would be I would be favorable to Ace a form of sexual martial law almost don’t leave your sorry but it might be okay I mean I guess you don’t want to get too too far off the deep end with this but I I feel like a welded the sober way to frame this conversation if I if I had the chance I would ask America Odessa world the question how many instances of sexual abuse is it okay for your child to have is it like you know they’re going to experiment with drugs and alcohol so we’ll let him you know have a have a beer here and there and if you know don’t go they’ll know what the world is like I mean this people who would say that yeah you should go get beat up and bullied because then you’ll know how to be a good employee when you have a boss who who’s the president and it’s almost blase okay yeah it’s just going to happen or if you’re going to learn the hard way probably how the real world is but I think it’s really thought about that they would say actually know there’s not it’s not okay for one instance to happen ever ever okay and I think we we we sort of we act appalled after the fact driving the preventative you know infrastructure building than cultural transformation that that it would take so then the question is and maybe it’s a fair question for you I’d say there was this level of people take me seriously and they were willing to drop everything and address this issue faced on full-on it’s like the question would be how how where where could there be like experimental Community where where things like masturbation are actually applauded and there’s space for people to relieve themselves sexually as needed that don’t involve using other people as experience for they’re getting off you know if you’re there for their entertainment I mean understanding that Sexual Energy has the flow and we have to give it places the flow otherwise it’s going to get it’s going to get backed up and cause problems I mean there I have a million ideas for what a progressive you know I guess like I would like to call to rape free zone you know where it’s not just that their behavior laws but it’s it we figured out how to never let there be one moment of opportunity for you if there was really like that and experimental safe space yeah I don’t I don’t think we’re going to move ourselves Beyond this current issue through loss I don’t think this is something that we can legislate it’ll take it something that we can change through your legal interventions where I come from as a social worker as a social justice Advocate is if we can find a way into in as many settings as possible whether it’s through schools to church through parenting more and more attention helping people to learn about respectful relationships where people know what it means to be respectful and where we pay attention to our own sense of authentic needs and our own awareness of other people’s authentic needs it would seem to me that it would be hard to be abusive if people had that mindset of that training of respected authenticity and what that is going to require is first of all finding way to increase people’s tolerance to talk about sex make it so that it’s not so we talk about when we were in the Rated-R when were joking but something we could literally talk about healthy sexuality healthy needs our bodies and the reality that sexuality is part of a healthy relationship to get that in secondly just talked about and begin to have a way where people can have sexuality across the Spectrum and it’s there’s not a right way and a wrong way to be so that we can factor in all the multiplicity and diversity of how people have sexual expression to begin to teach people the communication skills to talk and non-verbally I in ways that are fancy in ways we don’t have to censor in ways that we don’t have to chew and that’s going to really help us to know when things are consenting and when they’re not when we’re really able to listen and talk openly so for my vantage point that could really be something that the intervention could start at home with parents are School teachers churches in youth groups in an adult education begin to do some of that could make a difference to do it and would make would make a job somewhere I’m sorry I hope we can continue to find ways right now the legal matters are in so many places teachers are restricted from talking about these kinds of things parents don’t want to deal with these kind of things churches have value judgments to preclude you from addressing these issues we have the legal right to back off and those restrictions and there was Prohibition and opening up and it really encouraging people I’m shocked it justifiable think if we can build relationships with those in our lives are close to and it’s safe to text more likely this someone is the victim of some kind of sexual trauma they might actually feel safe enough to step forward and say something happened to me where is right now too many people are afraid to approach somebody and even open that disclosure chili people realize something’s going on in there afraid to ask what happened you tell me what’s going on right now with these numbers being so prevalent it really it just begs the question are we is there some either deeply Insidious kind of conspiracy or maybe just threw Folly and we’re just really negligent and really ignorant or we are succumbing to really highly sophisticated intelligent mechanisms of of brainwashing or propaganda whatever it is but this but it’s like they’re the numbers don’t lie and in the numbers are only getting more staggering and worse meet you to always indicating that there’s a large percentage of people who are not reporting incidents but if the reporting of incidents has been the high-level then you know that leave so many in the shadow and it’s like we are again to go with that sort of public health model it is if we were creating conditions conducive to Mastiff rat populations you know we would and then we were having oh yeah you know that one in four one and six people have the Bubonic plague still because the snake population is down because there’s so many factors in in in the cultural design and what not and I totally agree with you it could be easily precluded by just solving solving the problem of people not knowing what to do with their sexual energy and a consensual and helping out of so-so under under the I mean I guess it’s not really useful to call him Predators it doesn’t really help it’s not I mean it can be I don’t know how we’re going to involve the approach a radical approach to really the Redemption of the perpetrators but I know there’s an organization called The Virtuous pedophiles have you heard about me today’s one about the perpetrators America still is a culture that’s dealing with issues from legal legal perspective other places so I can be in one serving of being another they are dealing with the offenders the perpetrators in ways that are trying to help them heal and overcome we do it through punishment with do for dinner and sex register for the rest of your life so we’re really not addressing the change or the process and I hope we can move more towards the models at some other countries are doing are you actually are trying to treat sexual offenders and change the issue so that those people can turn their lives around as well that’s going to make a huge difference the other thing I think it’s important to realize in this it’s hard right now because we’re being better at identifying sexual trauma so more people are stuck in storage so it may appear that the issue is getting worse we’re in some regards it may just be at the reporting is getting more accurate and what I can say optimism working with this issue for as many years as I have almost all the clients that I worked with over the years to come for help you come for a weekend they are the most incredible advocates for stopping the cycle and there was too many of them are wonderful parents are wonderful adults and they are out there soldiers trying to change the world and protect children and turn this around when you think about all the people coming in for therapy for mental health services all the people coming to rape recovery centers all the people come in Shore weekend each one of them is out there the Army is getting bigger and bigger of people who are so invested in wanting to turn this around one by one there too so I don’t know if the public sees that in the same way but there sure are a lot of feet on the ground of people who with their own children their own families their own partner they’re making a huge difference because they are aware these issues they are aware of the Dynamics they’re very alert to do it and they speak up when they see it in their lives without there is so many people who are survivors become helpers who is it helping professions and are using their time and energy to change the world an extra card show eye stye I’m an option is survey feel like a lot is happening a lot is changing I don’t know if it’s showing up yet because the reporting is becoming more and more open so it’s up here is that it’s spreading where it may I see in some ways we’re returning the return the ship around and really changing a I just don’t know if it’s showing up as much and even some of the movies in video presentations are now we’re talking about people who chew and changing our lives becoming successful in their efforts to recover from the trauma that even is a message of Hope and inspiration for dealing with this issue yeah I’m glad I’m glad you mentioned that it is a very important kind of statistical sociological phenomenon to two to go over which is at yeah it may be that we’re just getting better at the reporting becoming more aware and then actually has the more the more aware of it we we become a staggering but also give me know where once we have these like you said kind of what you know maybe the word would be early early onset triggers or or just a disproportionate well if you are a remorseless empathetic perpetrator it’s going to get harder and harder to get away with it cuz people are becoming more educated in literate and aware so that’s a good thing and then don’t work people who feel like they have a compulsion that they can get help for there will be more space for compassionate acceptance of the thing at this order and there will be more I mean right now there’s this sort of need your posturing oh yeah we would just what we eat we should just kill them all and you know that’s that’s cuz they don’t have a real solution will going to be somehow we are permitted which I don’t see that happening soon in this reality then there’s going to have to be more more proactive research and solution on that note where are you at personally or and within you know that the more than a seasoned veteran colleagues of yours at with really that what you could call in a word that fancy word pathogenesis where we know the cycle has been perpetuated cascading through generations especially in families with a full-on incest and where it’s just straight-up you’re going to be you know impregnated by somebody of your can and that’s just how this town works I mean that’s very deeply Doug in very almost at the DNA level of replicating down Athleta bloodline but there’s also the epigenetic sort of cultural what’s the word I mean I guess you could say it’s the way it’s just that it’s just taking for granted that we see it as a cycle almost like a biological parasite life cycle where it is propagates you know if you have if you have lice and in the in the in the Linens you know it’s going to continue to propagate as long as the conditions are conducive to the that lights being able to to to repopulate going down the lines but you know to break that cycle in to intervene we’re going to have to have a deeper understanding of its mechanism so with a proactive approach to the perpetrators what would you say are some are there any new ground-breaking research are there any new teams of researchers and Scholars who are who are volunteer perpetrators who are willing to be studied like pedophiles I’m sure they would be happy volunteer this in some some you know in a think tank or research facility is dedicated to why is this happening where is it coming from I think I think you’re gay the best way I can answer kind of what you were just saying I think we have to Canada and Germany get are two places that I feel like we’re doing a better job list we have 2 as we’re working with people who are offenders begin to take more time to stop and listen and stop and ask them if they’re in there too so that we can understand their dynamics of how of how boundaries. Cross how much should I charge was intentional how much it was kind of sexual preference victim was etcetera etcetera because I think we jumped in our culture does is so often we begin to form stereotypes of who people are and then we begin to put people into these boxes that we can begin to get these pictures but they may not always be true in terms of being the profile of the people where the offenders and so we need to understand the circumstances didn’t read it happened I think two examples where I see that beginning to happen is that I think colleges are beginning to and some places to look at how it is the campus sexual assault is happening in campus cultures in fraternities and sororities in campus what is it about those cultures that are allowing inbreeding people to have sexual assault be such a prominent feature so then we can know how to intervene and how to do this stuff to turn that around and throw them just jumping in and again criminalizing or bouncing on the people the offenders backing up and send what is the contextual what is the cultural what is the Environmental features that are allowing that. environment you existed for to get past dinosaur editable the military is another place military culture is really taking very seriously the issue of sexual assault and beginning to take on what are the circumstances that allow on people in the military to be sexually assaulted so that can be turned around and changed and do we have so it’s kind of finding a balance between attending to the people who are victimized beginning to work on how to protect them how to help them heal at the same time working at how does that even occur what is it what are the environmental features that she perpetuating so that can be turned around and I think the military and some of the college campus were going to have some success with that way of looking at it could be extended I wish you looked at as a whole culture I would have the breeding grounds and what are the features allowed to continue right yes very very well said and I agree with that said you were a bit more about Canada and Progressive in their approaches to harm reduction probably and I don’t mean to lump them together but just for purposes of this to talk about it one of the things that they’re both doing is taking your approach to whoever is an offender needs help to and then where in Canada specifically it should be possible to work your way off your offender registry and become a functional citizen of the culture again rather than saying now you’ve had this offense that you’re cooked and there’s no hope for you and beginning to go through Visual and written and spoken ways you can to educate the culture about what are the queues is something may someone may be getting a danger or something maybe your baby happening so we should we could be doing more of those kinds of things here you’re Classic example that we kind of have missed for example with a with a Catholic priest abuse that happened is how often an adult priest would become overly involved with a young child and him say they’ve even come to the parents house for dinner go up be the shooter up in the bedroom with the child ER take the kids camping all the timer to 7:01 would be asking why is this still hanging out all the time with children where are there adult relationships and someone might be coming in and out of the house and we don’t even ask what strength is trip charges for example when you realize that there’s somebody who you actually probably seeing the inappropriately sexual with somebody and you don’t say anything to them to stop at so it doesn’t happen again that’s just part of what happens in the fraternity about we try our backs and ignore those kind of things in a different than how we need to do with a lot of social justice issues it how often do we hear a racist comment anything which send check for the whole context were some of the things that are playing on their culture on racism how many times do people witness homophobic, your behavior is not say anything or not do anything which where where does his cross the line without contributing to bullying and harming someone we have a way that we turn our backs and don’t listen to those things that other people on the receiving end of it are acculturated if you like what I deserve that were yeah that’s just what happens because of my my status as what you whatever it is that puts me on the receiving end did you see how many times when I’m working with them with men who have been sexually traumatized and whenever there is an it happened whether it was as a child or as an adult at the time they may have said well I just deserve this or this is just what happens and where they don’t initially even say to something that was catarang they could do everything about what that’s what happens you and it’s really amazing that people can be acculturated to believe that being assaulted is something that you deserved it what is just what happens yeah it’s it’s scary and sad how the compounding trauma of being to preserve the Integrity of the family ego there’s a conspiracy among Stephen the mother is in the siblings and whoever else just to keep somebody silence and tell him they’re crazy or a liar they made it up or that they pour that they deserved it or I mean I heard recently A friend of mine who went to heinous abuse as a child and just the way the cognitive dissonance of the the culture of the family in the church group whatever I mean Aiden said something it was her grandfather who had molested a whole batch of children across multiple families all interesting do you know this guy in In-N-Out and I heard that or she said that’s what her mother said to her about what I guess with the restorative what would you call it the the Paradigm relief of birth of the mothers who would be responsible for their own children was that they would scold they would tell the children oh well you were jumping and playing on his lap you were turning him on you and or oh you know how he is you shouldn’t have been playing in his lap because you were teasing and basically say he impugned for easing the crotch of a adult man if you were a Chinese child I mean that’s but that’s how they and then they just in the interest it was interesting and I won’t even say the demographic it was a pattern that you could have zerve which is that old men are just considered kind of like it’s it’s just kind of their nature to be predatory so it’s kind of goes without saying that that well you better you better keep your guard up all the time but we’re not really going to police them we’re just going to just sort of cope with I don’t know just sort of them adapt adapting to this fact of life that that then there are just or just Scoundrels and especially if they get drunk they’re going to just so just better you better watch out and if you get it and it happens to you then you know we warned you or some someone should have warned you but now you know and you learned your lesson so don’t complain anymore if you know crazy but we have we have we have a tendency to do a lot of victim-blaming the classic thing that we’ve heard so often with females wear if you wouldn’t have been wearing that short skirt that wouldn’t have happened so the person’s short skirt is more the issue than the person who advantage of the person another victim blaming is gay people have been kind of lame because while you if you should’ve been provoking people you shouldn’t have been coming on that way you kind of responsible for being bullied because if you don’t behave yourself or you don’t suck it up and how often we’ve gay people are grown up thank you that’s just what happens if you’re gay you’re going to get hurt you’re going to get bullied on a rather than holding people accountable who are the boys we have never called you that I can’t do that that’s what I see so so wonderfully with the clients who I have worked with over the years in the manner comes our weekend is it so many most of them almost all them go away so committed that they want to find ways to work on their own issues so that they don’t forget switch how to beat a person how many of them become better Partners in their relationships how many of them become better fathers if they have children how many of them become more committed to doing things that are going to promote sound goodness and compassion the culture in it’s so neat to see people who come in one way and turn that around as they get help and go out really transformed to be able to be different people put out different energy and contribute to me that’s why I work at the end of the continue I do with the victim offenders could I see so much hope and promise and all those people that are being different in the world and changing the places where they circulate where they live awesome yeah well yeah it was probably good to say thank you for allowing me to kind of vent a little bit so box in MN to get some good feedback and be a sounding board and I’m very just this is it’s just the beginning for me to kind of reach out into the more into you or the space that you’re and I’ve been very much in the esoteric very friends kind of Realms of alternative approaches to this but I want to I’m going to need to kind of network and Bridge build and Coalition build with folks who are really holding up a more general you know open kind of framework for this so I really appreciate this this for me very pivotal moments at to start this dialogue personally and give it a few more minutes if some more of the hopeful I had a I guess that we could be good to give you time to the extent of elaborate on what you feel is no more to positive outcomes and that the Horizon 4 for the organization and also maybe some of the outline is the retreat in case folks want to start to engage in connect with that and just listen to podcast down if you are a Survivor if you have a loved one so many Network for Wiz to check out our weekends recovery and just really briefly here for purpose I were open to anyone 18 or older who has experienced any kind of sexual trauma either his child or an adult and we have people we’ve had people as old as 60 70 80 here come the door just first addressing the issue they haven’t addressed to before and the night sweats never too late it’s okay to get help at any point we have people coming in her early twenties and when is this nice about the weekends is when we have a spectrum of Ages and diversity in terms of Lifestyle issues of people bring they really learn from each other and they really ISO wrist have to put this different points in the younger people are inspired by the older people all the older people are inspired by the younger people in these kinds of ways to give people the reason the resilience to keep going on and what we do in the weekend is we work on everybody being involved in helping to set the safety guidelines for a weekend together and then threw a mixture of small group and large group activities we wave through learning mindfulness skills we work on helping people deal with grief which other Narrative of what happened to them and be heard we talked about building relationships where the people can trust and be with man we build in Civ physical activity for people to begin to maybe discover some things about nature in their own body we do some play time together cuz so many people who have head trauma have learned that life so seriously can’t find enjoy it would really help to build some networking between people they can take with them be on the weekends and a lot of people go through the weekend maintain contact with others from the weekend and they go back to their home community and even start a support group thing of extends the networking there we do a lot of attention on mindfulness happy cheap will learn skills for self-awareness and managing aspects of their life and lots of good feedback about how it’s is a powerful healing experiencing our weekend are small enough 28 man at the maximum and what is like if you’re a male Survivor to walk into a room and everybody else in their room share something about your experience that is life-changing for a lot of people cuz they may never have seen another man who openly said this happened to meet you so it’s very rewarding work to do it’s incredibly powerful to see that she was going to turn around as soon as the men have just in 3 days wow that’s that sounds amazing and so that’s how often does it happen this year were only doing the one weekend and outside in August it’s August 11th to 13th and Sunday we are program we generally do more we just doing one this year. We we usually do 3 to 4 level ones and then one Advanced every year and our Advanced is open to anybody who’s come to a level one before and what’s interesting about our advanced level which is always also done in Utah it’s a little bit longer than 2 hours longer and we usually build in some kind of a steam we grab it or we rotate between empowerment where do a lot of body work and every other year with your relationship Focus were people can come a single or they can bring a partner through the relationship and just focus on how to be in a relationship work on relationship Dynamics we have a similar weekend retreat for female survivors and we have partnered in done that where we do mixed-gender against several weekends and I’m experiment with that someone’s level ones as we go forward into future of having men and women who have been survivors share the space into healing together awesome great well yeah do you have any final words or thoughts or do you want to share the website thanks again and in just any other contact info for this year the website link is just go to mail Survivor. Org we are going to be changing some things about our program moving and try next year is correct but if you do a web search for weekends recovery is still real to find us will have a new website set up by sometime later this summer and if anyone needs to just my name Jim strube Jim struve you can look for my website and find me through that it’s just Ruby. Com not have a lot of resources at my website as well I’m a Survivor has a lot of resources there and linkages to other organizations that are doing work as a number of the groups around the country somewhere programming in survivors so anyone who’s out there it’s never too late change is possible and taglines theme we have for a weekends is dare to dream awesome you know I just I realize that you probably have one little last question for you if you don’t mind and it’s kind of a I don’t know I said maybe someday it’ll be sort of his the survivors dilemma or some of something typically men are in the closet the dirtiest ee in the closet if they feel that they’re coming out as a Survivor I think it is right when I came out as the Survivor it was a it’s it’s a real burden it’s a real burden because it’s a do you want to always be given that that what do you call it a I will for one I don’t like to put the imagery of what happened to me in anyone else’s mind feeling or shame feeling that you know she is coming out then you you do and I think that’s why families try to shame it so much as they just ate it’s it’s impolite if you know and if they at the Garden Party to talk about any of these things are sort of the atmosphere with the truth of what’s happening so we just let it happen but we covered all that but I guess the question some men do not want to come out as survivors because they fear that people will think that they work that they are now they’re gay and so does homophobia it’s more difficult for men to come out because of that stigma of the fear of being homophobic and there’s other year of being now that don’t they will be suspicion that you will be able to know what the clinical term is but a Survivor offender or what would you call it if you were the in these unfortunate cases and then you’re not healed you’re not getting support and you would become a a perpetrator yourself that if you don’t lose that Bergen and anxiety and then there’s also a third factor that I feel like his kept me from coming out fully even to the to the to this community to this mail to Everett Community ice you’ll still afraid of men I don’t want other men who are having this way been hacked and compromise to know about me p.m. to you know I still I still fear the the jokes about the you know that you don’t want to know if it’s not going to go to a few AA ttsd retreat in Vietnam it’s to me it’s it’s a it’s a threshold to feel comfortable around it’s it’s a it’s a weird inverted kind of thing words you should feel all we were all we all suffered the same thing and therefore we can have solidarity and and sort of them Fellowship run that but then I also feel that because I kind of have my own suspicions about other people who may be aren’t doing the however far along they are in their path it’s it’s it’s a it’s a pesos do you know anything has to be everyone’s in a different state of dealing with it and and I guess you know the question is is there are there mechanisms in place within your organization specifically or within the sort of Coalition of it where they say there’s a Survivor who’s really creepy or really kind of maybe they’re not all there maybe they could be still harmful big day could already be Survivor offenders obviously there needs to be spaced held for them to they were to say that they need help or that they don’t know what to do with the same way if there’s a lot of overlap so in order for me to feel safe in those environments and even to post on Facebook groups and stuff I I don’t know I don’t want to become an object of affection for someone who’s really kind of become the gremlin you know what I mean so I don’t know if that makes any sense at all but it’s sort of a come completion of these factors to be I don’t want to go with all the other survivors are known as what if there’s a bunch of perpetrators there and I guess that’s right that’s why I think it’s so valuable to seek how to ask for help start with a therapist word saved and then we can be honest about our fear as we could be honest about her biases would be honest about the issues that were having and then be able to find a reputable organization like our weekends recovery we have a good track record where we are being transparent about protecting the safety of the people that come so that we can then put ourselves in settings where we can share share share our biases and then the ultimate goal is to be able to expand our capacity to be able to be authentic and be open and being open and authentic it’s talking to protect us from other people’s Prejudice not going to protect us from some of those things in the world but if we can find her on solid Nest then we don’t have to hide we can we can deal with those issues as they come up and we can even deal with somebody who made for sure but they are triggers and we can either go week we have to realize first of all that something was done to us we didn’t do something something was done to us if we’ve been sexually assaulted and that by coming out of being transparent we don’t have to share any of the details it’s more we can just say I am a survivor it’s our business whether we want to say anything more about what that means some people shower stories some people just say I’m a Survivor but that needs to be a very individual decision to do it where I really it’s hard to look at secret so I think there’s some Freedom if we are a sexual assault Survivor to be able to say that out loud and to have it there without searing without secrets in I know I’m a Survivor myself I realized it by just being able to say that and in the context of all the work I am doing here how much it makes a difference to see I’m a Survivor and look at how functional my life isn’t how much I’m doing it doesn’t have to be a detriment it doesn’t have to be a star it we can find our own way to contribute whatever way we want it makes a difference when we have to keep it a secret we have to be in fear verses when we can be authentic and honest that is a great note fiance and I know I’m here I’m feeling the sense that you know positive role modeling of survivors for survivors will be the way that the survivors who are maybe I mean like you’re in an allergy would be in 12-step group way they’re not sure they still may feel completely possessed and they have no agency what is happening to them and through them and so I guess I guess I guess you have a solution as you’re saying very clearly create a real-life role modeling kind of 69 weekends we have a very large community of people who are learning how to be compassionate are learning how to overcome their fears of the stereotypes and are demonstrating that being a Survivor doesn’t have to be a permanent noose around your neck that you can live a thriving compassion Wonderful Life and sometimes even more compassionate because you know I hear from the women in my life who I have relations with that I’ve never even with the man who so open-hearted and compassionate and present and careful and ask me about my boundaries and my history and it said it does you know yeah there’s a there’s that that that that irony of of of having is having more sensitive if you are thank you for having me and thank you to all the listeners I hope this is been valuable than welcome any feedback or inquiries from anyone who’s listening Austin well thank you so much Jen I really appreciate you taking the time for this and yeah I will definitely be in touch and I’ll let you know as soon as that this is published and hopefully we can keep in touch tank sticker I buy thank you for listening to the touch upon podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition of sustaining and improving the podcast your donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or 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