In this episode I interview Tracy Elise the founder of the Phoenix Goddess Temple. She is defending herself in a historic trial and facing multiple felony charges. She tells her story of providing non-profit sacred sexual healing services, offering spiritual initiation and training, and being persecuted for her religious beliefs and practices.
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Tantra Punk your guide to sexual Liberation healing and empowerment as a certified Tantra counselor and certified permaculture designer I’m here to help you grow spiritually sexually and ecologically my online and in-person counseling sessions and training programs are price to fit any budget I’m looking forward to helping you design and ever more Divine Life Path please send me an email to Ben at Tantra Punk. Com and our journey together will begin welcome to Township Punk podcast episode number 36 I’m here with Tracy at least and we’re going to be talking all about the Phoenix goddess Temple and the first off I just want to say that this case is near and dear to my heart and since I heard about it a few years ago I felt it it definitely was going to be sort of like a Roe v Wade for sacred sexuality and it’s something that I believe everyone who is involved in the sacred sexuality movement shouldn’t have a good clear understanding of The Facts of the case from Tracy here and his interview and also say that if you listen to any of my previous podcast and you know anything about my personal life story it’ll it’ll make a lot of sense why I care so much and I’ll just put it out there that I feel that we are on the cusp of a paradigm shift for we understand that the natural Spiritual Authority of the Priestess class that should be honored and revered no matter what religious background you have most importantly because of the fact that we’re in a world filled with rapists and child sexual abusers who would do much better to have access sexual access to Healing goddesses and gods who are going to create a line of defense now so that the energy that’s stirring inside of them but doesn’t have a healthy and safe expression with other consenting people they can go and receive a trance station of the energy into something positive in purified and prevent the the heinous crimes that I was victimized by as a young child and it’s a young teenager and also free anchor into the Hearts face of praying for the victims of Elliot Rodgers and think about how the family members of the slain in the massacre that was the result of extreme sexual frustration if we could possibly imagine what the world would look like if men suffering from that anxiety had a healthy sexual initiation through these traditions of sacred feminine Sexual Healing practices and sexual initiation practices what the world would look like if there could be so much less sexual violence and so much more sexual healing and I think that we are going to learn a lot today and we’re going to start to figure out how we can support the efforts of these Frontline Warrior goddesses of peace and light and healing in love that we all desperately yearned for so with that said Tracy thank you so much for opening up your temple space for me in this moment and I’ll say now please bless us with all of your might and magic and mystery finishing up feeling a little altar here at fiery altar on this December 22nd and I have my Yoni symbol my beautiful pink conch shell and then I have the fireball then a mosaic that’s kind of like a stained glass and that reminds me of church and I grew up as in a church so I like I like the feeling that when you go into a Cathedral at Temple Church at a mosque I like how it feels when you go into that set aside Sacred Space so I wanted to bless the moment if I could that way anyway yeah so how about the history of the brief history of the Phoenix goddess Temple so that we know what we’re talking about and what is now being investigated I have been doing group practice since 2002 and I never set out to be a center holder for group practice it was something that I deliberately set out to do but what was happening is I was working in a certain way and people were responding to how I was working really it was the attitude with which I was working and so I had Seekers and that’s a that’s I’m for a very long time I’ve used a certain kind of language early on the state of Washington called me up and said you know we we have a complaint it on your website and it was a website I wasn’t even using called true Spectrum Tantra North a picture of a massage table and it said Relax on a massage style table and even say massage table is a massage – stufful table and they’re like you know that’s a reference to massage you can’t do that and so they wanted to visit the premises make sure we weren’t doing illegal massage it was in 2003 at the light Body Temple and in that I wrote her a response to the government to the state of Washington to Health Board and they accepted my explanation of what I was doing and they said we want you to know we keep funds to do will keep the file open and you’ll probably she’ll probably be visited by some undercover inspectors just a follow-up to make sure that you’re not doing that and you know we never really were but it made it very important at that point but I had to draw a line in the sand very early I’m not doing anything with massage it really isn’t massage we’ve always been calling at the altar Altar and the alt AR is consecrated that is dedicated with spiritual and and that upon this altar u a l t e r u alter towards the Divine and so we we don’t have massage tables we have altars and and then because I’m really into the quantum physics aspect of it they human-like body then I lights we always like the under part as well and with little white twinkle lights and it’s to represent that we are made up of particles flight and to not forget that so anyway so yeah I’ve been rocking with the government for a while and always successfully that’s why this was really shocking when it happened and yeah so it for a long time I’ve been doing group practice because I wanted to I I didn’t know that what I was doing with sacred when I began but I had a very Mystic beginning a Mystic initiation into Central Bodywork it was much more than that so the person that I was initiated by into this sensual touch work I think we called it central Bodywork is what it was called but this person was actually a magical intersexed person they were born both I think that that he she actually use the term hermaphrodite and this was astonishing for me I really felt like I had fallen down the rabbit hole but I was very happy to be there if it was like a whole nother world and I was Bible refer to him as he because he was literally living as a man at the time this initiation into this touch and what happens and how much people need it and his thing was he said you know if you give people the touch and a good a good massage a good a good all over touch then they’ll always come back and people don’t they don’t really when it comes to sex see no shopping around for sex with her that’s variety people never go back whatever but you said this is different you want to be a Healer like I don’t think he used the word healer but he talked a lot about the importance of touch and then if you gave good touch gave a good massage that was his word that he was trained in massage in a lot of people who work in a sensual field are in fact trained in the Sun and they could never let the Two Worlds touch because the protocols and ethics of massage don’t allow you to touch the whole body so RBI came from that background that touch I was never trained in massage but I I found that I had a knack for it I would gift for it I think a lot of people might find it given the right circumstances or writing for a judgment a little bit of demonstration a lot of people might find that they are healers that they have the hands of healer I found with very little effort that I was good at it and I’ve I’ve met other people who is soon as they got in chamber they were just naturally good at it so that’s a real thing and that’s me that’s body wisdom and there’s also the whole aspect of past lives and is something did you have a temple life and is now you’re remembering it in your body’s remembering it at the cellular level and you know how to do things that your mind doesn’t know how to do to me that’s real Mitten might not be to everybody but to me it’s real I’ve had some serious past life experiences that were extremely Vivid Ananda they weren’t anything else they weren’t dreams they weren’t wasn’t my imagination and it was like chilling so you know chillingly real how so the temple then evolved out of your practice of groups and people wanted to do there was a a percentage of people who really liked the idea of doing the work in a sacred Manner and people say what do you mean sacred and I say well yes I can’t really talk to you about sacred sexuality without some sort of definition for the sacred and for me that the practicing the operating definition of the temple is if you’re willing to be grateful if you are grateful for the gift of life that means that you’re operating in a sacred way if you are ignoring or even cursing the gift if you see this as a weigh station to a better before you get to a better place to me that’s not sacred and that’s kind of pagan it’s kind of Native American it’s an earth-based view that our sacred is everything around us if the the mall the matter the material is all sacred and but there is a thing about setting aside a Sacred Space and anyone who’s ever held space as its Center holder for a church Center holder for a temple even a sitter holder for a business or anything like that anytime group you know there’s a you know there’s a bubble in which the group conducted specialized activity and the energies are concentrated within that bubble they’re not diffuse they’re not out of the world you’re you’re concentrating those energy than that’s what the temples has it concentrates the energy so we were we were you know as far as the case goes I see how would I put this in a short Manor I moved to Arizona I did ceremony December 21st of 07 up at Sedona Temple and I was there with tomorrow brussaux and we were committed the two of us to founding a Sisterhood sacred sexual nunnery if you will send you know seen the movie A League of Their Own and there was this beautiful camaraderie of these women who had played baseball when it was really no one you know it was a guy’s game and what are you doing with these skirts out there on the field and really doing the sacred sexuality work is kind of like that you know you’re you’re sort of people think it’s a novelty you’re bucking a trend Yuri misunderstood and I just thought this would be great for us to have this this Sisterhood that appreciates and passes on knowledge and and we kind of have each other’s back so that was that kind of the through line for me is the Mystic sisters and I began to call us the Mystic sisters in the fall of 2002 and I swear that it was a church with spiritual healers and Earth stewards they offered me a charter into July of 2002 and So within a year of doing central Bodywork I had moved into realizing that for me and for a few other people that this work was sacred they felt they were really having like I don’t know like a church like experience but you know spiritual transformation shifting at the soul level shifting at the cellular level people were I was getting the feedback that we were changing lives even with simple body work because one of the things is if you’re doing the sacred sexual and you’re in that place of gratitude for the gift of life and and you are a holding space for whatever your version of sacred is people when they when they touch that they they come into your chamber your healing room and a lot of times they’ll just collapse into the wonderful Vibes of The Killers space and I want to divert a little bit here. Go off because it was about 2,000 and Hotsy was when I went to Florida I don’t know what’s a while ago very early two thousands I happened to hear in the middle of the night this woman talking and I wish I could credit her and I cannot but I heard on the radio this woman was talking about how the healers chamber the room must have the elements in it and that if your room has fire actual fire and you have water like a beautiful sacred bowl of water or poor or perhaps also a fountain we’ve got running water but properly placed of course and then you got heavier than Ware pots and maybe some huge Stones the biggest ones you can carry in big huge rocks in the north of your chamber or maybe you maybe you put them somewhere else and then having the air the fan so that there’s always this movement of air and she said you know when you put the four elements in a chamber and you have actual like a real tree a living tree and the end the leaves are rustling in the breeze of the fan there’s that there’s a an instantaneous healing that happens at the particle level that the each element breaks down two different sorts of molecules and particles and that that is so when it’s when a Healer sets at their chamber correctly a huge healing happens with the person just being in the room and it ends so that that struck me cuz I was already working with the four directions and the elements and so that just made sense and so I began to always do that with the chamber’s infect with the Earth portion of it we would buy two of every plant and two of every little tree and we would rotate them into the outer areas like the classrooms the hallway the foyer and switch the plants out so that we can have living trees a lot of work to do it that way and sopa and that’s where people have to slow down and end in really you don’t do your practice all the way 10 to those 10 to those living plans as part of your altar Pioneer sacred work anyway that’s going off on the healers listening so I wanted to share that it wasn’t my idea but I found that it’s very true if you go out of your way to have the elements in your chamber and properly Place everything so pretty like going back to the first thing I ever did was Brock with the government on massage at massage without a license and I’m sure we weren’t saying that in our phone script or anything I’m sure we called it sensual touch it even sensual Bodywork had like a different connotation so if I’m not mistaken it was right around the spring of 2003 that that I began to use the phrase whole body healing and it’s interesting because the word heel h e a l means in the Latin to make whole whole and to be whole whole is have your compartmentalize pieces brought back into one into a homeless and then when you are whole that’s also the same root word as holy holy so to heal is to behold behold is to be made holy and you become one with everything so I got really clear that I wasn’t doing massage I got really clear at the time I wrote a very specific letter about chakra balancing I mentioned a Bianca as a self-care Ritual from Arya Veda and that we were using a similar long Slidin Strokes on the limbs towards the heart and swirling on the limb give me the joints with with other body Benz you juice wrld it basic Avianca self-care ritual of anointing the body yourself but in the case of visiting the light Body Temple we were doing the ritual for you giving people different oils that they could choose from and and then I also was of course bringing up the holy anointing tradition in the Bible and Mary Magdalene as the anointing of Jesus I mean she was not Not only was she not a prostitute and I wanted to kick it in here that it wasn’t till 1969 at the Vatican admitted that my meds when was not a prostitute and they have yet to really acknowledge that Not only was she not a prostitute she was a priestess and the word Magdalene as she was Mary of magdala magdala which is the triple towered Temple of the Goddess there’s been a recent a very thorough translation of it and there’s no question that Mary Magdalene was a priestess of the Goddess temple in magdala that she was a holy anointer and I brought that up with the state of Washington and you know they accepted all of that and I have that letter and and they did probably come and do some undercover work and visit us and an however we were you know we were let go we I think no one ever visited my places that didn’t think I was sincere and because I am sincere and and there’s always people around me who feel that way to really when we want change part of it is is giving each other that witness to say I like this thing over here better let’s let’s focus on it let’s give it some energy this is better than what we’re doing and you need to do that together so that’s something that the temple did is it created vortexes of divine witness where people would get cool ideas somebody else would witness it back there might be a way to implement it because you are a community and so it’s a really it’s like a living organism that that was happening with the temples At The Florist beautiful so this idea of the witnessing I feel like a lot of fish Shadow behaviors in romantic and various kinds of interpersonal relationships that are not observed by at least another one other person if not a community of people it’s a lot of these really abusive Tendencies are allowed to fester in total secrecy and privacy so Fellowship around intimacy that structured and disciplined and in sacred and with the the higher vibrational procedures in place so that you’re not devolving into debauchery that’s a with excessive drugs or alcohol in a lot of people are just taking it you know if you make Eros into a sloppy kind of parties or if you look at some of the ancient temples there was always an aspect that was there were Spirits there were Vapors there were things that you would take and there were and pleasure was definitely part of it you know one of the things that was a real eye-opener for me was when some people in Seattle they have a I don’t know if they’re doing it now it really going to come put a damper on it when we when this happened in Phoenix but they call themselves sensual Seattle and they were teaching a certain type of sacred sexuality it involved what always washing the feet in the ancient tradition that did a lot of really cool stuff but they point out Bruce isella born of of that group he said you know because if you see if you look at sacred sexuality what they all have in common these ancient lineage has around sacred sex is that they all have to do with living forever they all have to do with connecting the orgasm to immortality and what Bruce what’s Ella born said he’s like you no pleasure is a respectable part of what we’re doing you don’t want it who would want to live forever if you’re not there’s no pleasure and we sort of we’re going to wear down on Pleasure we we we get down on it even in the touch committee were like we’re afraid of being hedonistic into carnal to Primal but really honestly we’re all living in our head I mean maybe not in the country Community but out in the world people are living in the upper chakras and they could use some more Primal touch body yeah maybe Primal nature taking over these are places temples many more like them to come in my in my future vision and I hope hopes and dreams so that we are helping each other navigate these white waters you know that the quick update would be we’ve always had the potential to use religion as a defense the state did not want that to happen I think when they raided the temples they got a hold of our paperwork our computers are videos or pictures they saw our altars whatever I think there wasn’t there had to be there at some level like holy crap we really did write a church here but but at some level they’re like it doesn’t matter we think they’re breaking the law so you know you fast forward to four and a half years later and sincerity is is always the defense like you can use religion as a defense if you’re sincere and where we’re at in December 2015 after waiting for your little over four years for this thing to go to is it all of the Witnesses are saying this was my religion this was my church it was my school I was there to give my gift as a Healer or I was there to be healed or both the states as recently as this week and I think we have all this you know we’re going to start uploading all of the trial video able to buy it for $30 a day we can walk out with the trial video so we purchase the first four weeks and we are in the process of uploading that and we had we already have it up except for that and it is actually but you have to we found out we have to hide all the phases of the undercover detective like I’m responsible for that for hiding them so this is a call to action for financial support his ninja as a community is a huge defense it’s a real defense and then what happens is they have to prove or harm which which is my really circuitous way of getting back around to shame doing things in secrecy what part does Temple play in helping people get over this sort of shadowy aspect of intimate relations where let’s say you’re monogamous but you your partner’s no longer having sex with you and you’re never going to break that Bond but you don’t so don’t want to go to your grave never having sex again we’re just never being touched there or whatever that is that you’re not willing to to keep going and then you, you find someone in the Temple and so this is it’s interesting because of the sincerity thing now is back on the table religious defense is back on the table as of this last week and what it means that they have to prove harm in the hot day in Arizona there’s something a ruling that had to do with criminal accusations and being defended by a Church there was a gentleman by the name of Hardesty who went all the way to the Arizona supreme court defending marijuana as his religious Sacrament and because he was in his car there were like we’re going to we agree with you that this can be a religious Sacrament but we’re not going to let you have it in your car because he was saying I can have it anywhere anytime at all time and if it and they’re like because of the way the laws are at present we have to treat this the same as alcohol therefore you can’t have it in your car even under religious protection and then when did that when they did this Hardesty ruling they also and I’m going to have to paraphrase this but put it into writing that in the state of Arizona if I government doesn’t like what a church is doing and there’s and there’s no clear law no precedent around that particular religious group than the state has the burden to harms before it takes actions against the church WIll what they’re looking at with the temple is a lot of goodness every single person has testified about couples work working with women yes we admit that yes it was mostly male Seekers sing mostly female practitioners but we were always available for couples work always available for women’s work and I did do those thing and workshops and classes and coursework so the jury is getting to see all of that overall it’s been fun in Arizona it’s quite interesting that they get to ask question understanding that looks like a real Church why did you do this so going back around to what this Hardesty ruling is it means that the state has to prove a harm if they want to prosecute the church and end really so right after social work and is sort of feeding back into that sector the wisdom of of the Amazon and and Beyond and so is that something that you have I thought I remember reading somewhere you know we’re talking to you at some point about how this is this is like you could be hired by the more formal above ground and sectors of social work or Community work with where you can be brought in to bring some of the stuff that would normally be or I guess it’s just it’s a very interesting Cutting Edge of an intersection and I if I’m not mistaken that’s that you you are like sort of partially in that world 2 of of social work or is that something I understand correctly or social worker social worker y’all are layout string this conversation back and see where where I where I am placed social work as well as all the modalities of counseling and healing you know like they are all part and parcel to supporting and upholding status quo capitalist system so I’m going to like you know like you know also having been in the punk scene also had a big impact on my my party now thought you know in terms of healing these wounds we have to look at that you know we can’t we can’t say like that are healing is going to be independent of a world that is reeling and suffering from the continuation of this system as it is and so that’s where I for me like bringing capitalism into the equation is is something that’s real tricky it’s something that I feel needs to be kind of understood that you know we we can’t just rely on having sting services that we can pay for because that creates a gap you know where some people are going to have accessible abilities to to the healing and others won’t and that’s that’s not healthy for anyone and and also that it doesn’t address the root cause of why we need social workers to begin with and why we need counseling and all of that so I really like the notion of cultural healing that’s where more where I would be comfortable in any way kind of looking at myself as any kind of healer I don’t think we we can really heal individuals that’s really something that you know a person will need to and it’s not like they can be facilitated to do their own healing work but nobody can fix us we have to fix ourselves that’s that’s more I think a more powerful Paradigm to be apart of but you know I I I have worked in the realm I focused therapy and you know I have spent quite a bit of time around the spirit plant medicines and seeing how the plant medicines have assisted and I do I do continue continuously work to increase my knowledge and wisdom around working with us plants and and that also brings us back into that hole realm of discussion around you know ancestors and working with them or perhaps that’s something we haven’t really touched upon but maybe she said it’s just that in any form of healing that we do I guess for me the important thing that I really try to bring into whatever I do connecting back with her ancestors and healing the trauma of how we were disconnected from those ancestors and how that plays out in any kind of sexual wounds or emotional wounds that we carry and so that’s something that I I I feel like the role of initiation and ritual can can really do and that’s that’s been its Province ever since people began doing patrols I think it’s to build upon the legacy of their ancestors and to draw and their their help and support cool said that yeah thank you for helping me understand the other parameters a little better and and 100% there with you I have I have been because I live in the United States where there’s different laws around no prostitution in in how that affects the healing with sexual touch and pleasure as medicine and stuff like that is a lot more yes I understand in in Canada there’s there’s a lot more interesting legal space in order to do Hands-On Sexual Healing work relative to the US where it’s completely off limits in so I because of that adapting to that reality and also is a permaculture designer myself I have to think very deeply about how to navigate this issue of for-profit healing work that kind of in most sectors is about like you said I’ll put in my own words it’s like they want to know if if the if you’re at a time of time robot that supposed to be producing a set amount to be a productive member of the of the GDP then then if you’re not functioning properly than the the goal of the mainstream social work or psychotherapeutic or psychiatric Fields they’re trying to get you back into the rat race as soon as possible and they’ll do that with drugs with talk therapy or whatever that is about avoiding through tissue which is the disconnection from urethane from a healthy holistic wild habitat you know a night as a primitivist I see that you know the solution to your Neurosis is to retry belies and Get Growing your own food again in and rebuild that fabric so you know there with you on that tension about right livelihood in and taking money for healing and what is he doing so I really like what you said and that just is going to it’s going to help me a lot looking at healing the cultural level and healing the if I’m understanding right and I’ll put a couple my own words on it but I feel like we’re trying to build the scaffolding or were trying to design the context for people to take the responsibility of a personal healing and gone to that journey and so if you if what would you say are some practical skills are tools from all of your things that you would teaching and training and a things that you discovered in your own journey to where you’re in power tools for empowerment that you suggest or are resources that you suggest people Explorer to if they’re called to do the cultural healing work weather for profit or non-profit. Some dance between the two or it and then what what are some recommendations for people who are on their own path and aren’t necessarily called to do the the cultural healing yeah I mean it’s it’s a pretty vast subject that one but I think that a few points that I could think about and talk about our that I’m going to this idea of bringing you back in the station rights and recognizing that in the absence of them what do we have you know we are we are sadly in there without initiated Elders so many of us and if there are any of Elders that hold that ability to to guide those those ones are those are worth their weight in gold you know there really is people that we should try to lift up and and give them their recognition and see you know and then in the absence of that it’s like we kind of by default Our Generations people that will have to hopefully fulfill that and reach a place where we can actually help upcoming generations to go in a way that they don’t have to completely go it alone and and figure it out on them on their own the way that so many of us have had to and so there is a movement around Rites of Passage I sit on the board if you passageways which is a network that focus is squarely on you no Rites of Passage for you coming of age from all different walks and and and modalities you know some of them are our Boys to Men oriented some of them are girls to women some of them are starting to incorporate non gender binary kind of approaches as well which is good and and this whole focus on bringing back the ancestors into looking at Rites of Passage is is starting to happen and something that I focused on and so that’s that’s a resource you know people can go to youth passageways. Oregon and look at what programs are out there and they can also think about how they can add to that list and bring in things that are needed around especially around sexuality and relationship which is often I noticed kind of a big gap in a lot of programs out there you know because they’re confined confined or constrained by the conservative values where they take place and you know what school system is you know this is one of those places lagging for that kind of thing so it’s a role that I think that many people who understand the need can step into and cultivate as career paths you know and some people are pig figuring out how they can weave their credentials says on Sexual Health Educators or sexual therapist or sexual trauma or no trauma-based therapists you know into this realm of initiation and that’s that needs to happen on a on an increased level the other I see a lot of because of what I was saying around looks really don’t how many Avenues to learn other than through you know what the books in the workshops and offerings around sexuality thoughts unfortunately are not rooted in in people’s only need two lineages generally speaking you know so the whole Tantra movement is pretty much so you know a cultural appropriator of New Age fight version of those Traditions that would have been squashed by Christianity especially and so I think there’s work to be done there and as much as possible Retreat retrieving reconstructing are reconnecting with our own ancestral Traditions which I’m sure you know had their own knowledge wisdom around how to how to raise healthy harmonious individuals with healthy sexualities from from the vantage point of how what little I do know has been has been done in indigenous cultures and without wanting to appropriate for them from them I’ll just give way of examples out of that you know in and certain cultures that are studied like the Mayan culture and I think to some degree on certain places within Creek culture there’s examples of how as societies you know that the children are raised from an early age 2 reach a point where they understand how to how to harmonize with the other sex and how to to look after each other and that’s just a very basic principle that I feel like you know that’s that’s worth kind of learning how to integrate into our family structures if we have children that were raising just to keep in mind that you know there is a need for them to learn skills around things like consent and around being responsible with with one’s sexual energies and and I needs to start before they reach that age of adolescence where they’re just harder to connect with if you haven’t built up that Foundation so that’s something that I think about will do you so if I if if we check out that the organization that you mention is it would that be good place to find and something like a more enlightened or more conscious like sexual education curriculum or guidebook do you know if people were working on something like that so if I know if you know parents who were going through the puberty of their child that they have something that’s not just this cold clinical Western and even though that sort of evolving a little bit you know with things like a sack didn’t and whatnot I see a lot but the The ancestral wisdom and you know the ceremonial Rites of Passage you know how does it how does the Modern Family say okay well you’re about to start feeling you know hormonal Energy’s how do we give you know create even if it’s just within their family or their Community yoga or whatever is something more than what’s being offered in the normal sex ed or what they’re listening in gangster rap music and watching on sitcoms obviously you know it’s enough for lack of lot of alternative options it’s one one place to look and we’re always looking for others so whenever we discover something then we will see to auditory resources and we are trying to vet those resources and those organizations to make sure that they really are you know at least there’s some some level of you know safe recommendation that we can give for those those organizations we’re not we’re not in the position to really kind of completely you know set standards but we are trying to we have a code of what we call it a cross-cultural protocol so we do look at that aspect that you have for what we’re talking about that’s you know if that’s another layer that we will hopefully get to eventually and I do know that there are people within our Network who are really strongly focused on this particularly around girls to women kind of education and and Rites of Passage and some of the Boys to Men once but I think it’s also something we need to to enhance as well oh that’s great yeah that’s that’s that’s what I wanted to hear so that I can just refer people to this ongoing and so and then the LSI is kind of its there’s a Facebook I’ve been interacting with the the Facebook group for a while so is that something you recommend people plug-in I mean that’s the goal of that is to feature blogs and generate discussions from those blogs and also to establish a resource of services as well as information and so that’s you know running on in a very limited volunteer capacity and so you know it’s something that I hope will eventually become a very powerful resource but already it’s you know it’s been feedback that I’ve received that you know even just the the group that we have on Facebook somebody posted recently. You know it’s really help them in their in their path which is nice to hear and I’ve heard that a few times and I try to curate that group in such a way where it’s like you know it’s trying to generate discussion and it’s it’s trying to be a safe space where where people can get into some of those I’m intimate revealing is of what what’s going on in their lives one of the things that kind of came out of love sex intelligence local as a connection with Tamara and the love school that they have which is a very congruence philosophy to love sex intelligence and they’re their work to try to create or with to create safe spaces for people to to share stories of what’s going on in their intimate lover sexual lives and and B witnessed in a way that is non-judgemental where they’re not being flooded with advice but more just being witnessed which is kind of connected to that whole framework for Rites of Passage itm witnessing each other and so it’s it’s trying to also look at how you know communities can succeed in their in their goals which might include you know like being more sustainable or being an alternative to the systems around us and also being a part of a more peaceful kind of culture through filling this hole that is often where things go wrong where people are are are not feeling safe to talk about these these human experiences around wounding around are our hearts and our sexuality so I’ve been part of a Practice Group here that has been circulating also to other parts of BC and I think it’s a really it’s a really powerful movement to be a part of yeah we’re getting close to an hour or so I have to take a few more minutes and I’m get a couple thoughts and feelings some responsible for 1 something that his is coming up for me that I think it’s really empowering is this like idea that wouldn’t it be nice if some of us started to think of ourselves as aspiring Elders I’ve never thought of it that way until this conversation and there’s a little spark of joy and me that that says you know puts in context the the punk rock lifestyle that I had of live fast Die Young and just you know if it’s not throwing yourself into the meat grinder of insurrectionary activism you know with this sort of Death Wish you know this martyr complex or whatever it’s like those are really unsustainable archetypes to follow and they leave a lot of people when they get to my age in about 35 like in a sort of existential crisis that will the revolution didn’t happen and I didn’t get killed I didn’t die in the gutter you know I mean what am I going to do now and it’s like well maybe it’s time to become an aspiring Elder and you know clean up your act and and then start to think about how you’re going to make it easier cuz I there’s a lot of things that I had to go through that I would seriously love to have no one else ever have to go through and if you know if we can live in that. you know that is what you’re supposed to think that I think of you say you know you can you can learn from the wisdom of Elders who have gone through and made the mistakes that you’re probably going to go through or you can just be hard-headed and learn all your lessons the hard way but I mean we’ve had to learn a lot of hard lessons in the absence of the eldership but I think if we take on that there’s a yeah me too. It seems obvious but really the way you put it his medicine for me to think you know it’s a dignified path to be an aspiring Elder and then it makes you not be so how do I can help you defeat that that that grinding pressure that oh my I’m going to lose my looks and I’m going to lose my energy and I’m going to be in the state of deprecation towards death and that’s very much the greatest fear of the western manicured Uno photoshopped airbrushed identity like you’re not really giving any hope that aging will be of any benefit in here just marginalized further and further so I thank you for that serve very much still give that time sacred eldership dignity not a light title to hold I think the true Elder wouldn’t really feel comfortable in it cuz it’s defining attributes of an elder that is really one that can help that role be the best it can be is one that is is really accountable is really present isn’t so on the move that if you can’t you know be relied upon to be there for the people that it serves now needs to ideally be in the in the fellowship of other Elders to kind of keep it in in in check in a way like we have to watch for the Cole group kind of phenomenon where people you know place a lot of weight on that person and in a way that can privilege them in certain ways and also lead to potential like power distortions and things like that you know it’s it’s only human that people will make mistakes and so having that kind of accountability of other people and also that time yeah you have people heart or a different there’s always like in every phase of life with the lifecycle there’s there’s like the maturing phases and so there’s like you know there’s a baby elder there’s enough adult Elder and then Senior Elder and so it’s just we have to learn at each stage of Life how to become the mature version of what that stage is and says just something to think about as well and it’s good to to get your feet wet early on in life so that you know we can have deep roots and and the and those are the kinds of people to like in the Tamara situation out of the black community they have a circle of Elders who are basically people who have grown with a community enough that they know the people in their community and then they serve a role as potential kind of like the Matchmaker but you know in a way where people can approach them in and ask them like you know I’m interested in this person and they can help you assess whether this is the right time or what is a good or bad idea and you know they can kind of that. Whole courtship in a way that you know really I think I wish there were more of those people around here don’t you let me relax you know learn the hard way what does that we’re just not compatible certain people in The Matrix the I mean yeah I’m not I’m not a political scientist of the Matrix but I will say that what got me peaked on the ecstatic trance dance group ritual ceremony festival thing was it really when I saw I think it was maybe the second movie or maybe it was the second or the third but there was a scene where they’re just getting down to like Juno Reactor I think was a soundtrack of a butt there is something beautiful about seeing the different the warrior culture Guided by elders and of course there’s different the archetypes playing out in Conflict split that to me was took it further than then the Star Trek Federation is a futuristic Elder guided Council guided kind of reality so that was kind of fun but yeah so that’s what came to mind when you’re at we’re talking about that be so cool if you’re early sexual oracle’s who you go to you know if we’re going to give you insights and maybe even have name your child for you or something cool like that you know be so cool but right on then will I worry about at the hours so do you have any closing touch you want to share or any other resources or should we just I’ll post the the links that you mention and I’ll definitely encourage people to stay informed and keep an eye out for your anything coming up you have any appearances or anything exciting like that coming up you want to mention I think yeah I think I covered a lot of it and I just wanted to maybe plant a seed while I have the airwaves here about something that I’d I’d eventually like to work on presenting which is around insert Intercultural relationships and also decolonizing our relationships as well and just thinking about how how we can heal some of these ancestral traumas and use that has as as a means to strengthen our relationships and also our society right on I’ll be looking forward to everything that you’re you’re expressing in the world and I hopefully yeah maybe sometime in the future we can talk about skill sets for Beyond Christian monogamy that would be a great topic so yeah how would you feel about that maybe we can sometime in the next few months follow up with something like that. Maybe by the by the time I’ll have more of a personal lived experience to a base conversation around that I think you know in terms of people who are already I don’t know how many listeners here are on a Christian spiritual path without that many but if the energy and gnosticism and sacred marriage not going to the alchemical top in the in the Gnostic tradition but I I wouldn’t make any claims to be an expert in that area but it’s definitely something to look at cool alright then we will be in touch and will follow up sometime in the future and thank you so much so be I really enjoyed it and I know it’s taking us a while to get this to get this done but I think it was perfect and I couldn’t ask for anything more so you have a wonderful day. Take care and keep for listening to the touch upon podcast please go to www.crunch.com and cook on the Donate button to help support the show in addition is to see me and if you want a podcast for donations will help establish permaculture goddess Temple every bite ecological employment for single mothers Please Subscribe and share your favorite episodes if you have questions or comments feel free to leave a voicemail at 818-275-1593 or email been at Contra Punk. Com Thomas Day